More Speed Limits for Bikes

Dermot Illogical

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Their private swimming pools?

http://www.dublincity.ie/recreationandculture/sportsfacilities/swimmingpools/pages/swimming_pools.aspx

Lusk_Doyle

TiltedBrain wrote: »

So I'm failing to understand why cyclists should have exclusive rights to it?

The same way train tracks are for trains, bus lanes for busses and taxis. Stop being needlessly obtuse. It's a cycle track. There's a path beside it. You don't walk along a road when there's a perfectly good path beside it do you?

SteelyDanJalapeno

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

The same way train tracks are for trains, bus lanes for busses and taxis. Stop being needlessly obtuse. It's a cycle track. There's a path beside it. You don't walk along a road when there's a perfectly good path beside it do you?

I understand what you're saying, but where does it end with all the lanes then? are joggers and runners expected to jog/run on the road or the footpath?

Lusk_Doyle

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but where does it end with all the lanes then? are joggers and runners expected to jog/run on the road or the footpath?

On the path. They are still pedestrians whilst running.

check_six

I think the old bell would come in fierce handy here to warn people who had wandered onto the cycletrack area of the promenade.

In fact, if reports are to be believed, you may be ringing the bell very frequently. So frequently that it might be an idea to set up some kind of speaker system all along the cycle track permanently pumping out the gentle dring-dring sound of a bicycle bell to warn pedestrians and joggers to beware the cycle track and it's onrushing two wheeled denizens. If you wanted to go eco style, you could have some kind of wind/rain/solar powered bells all along the track to take advantage of whatever the prevailing weather conditions were.

There you have it, the simplest, most obvious system of all to fix all our problems (and make everyone in the area think they had developed tinnitus). Job done.

Wishbone Ash

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Majority of roadies who would be breaking the speed limits will be using a speedometer or a garmin anyways

I'm open to correction but I think a person can only be open to prosecution if the vehicle is constructed with an effective speedometer.

27. An efficient speedometer, so placed and constructed as to be easily read at all times by the driver of the vehicle, shall be fitted to every vehicle other than a works truck, or a vehicle incapable of exceeding 30 miles per hour (or 20 miles per hour, in the case of a large tractor) on a dry level road under normal atmospheric conditions.

Wishbone Ash

TiltedBrain wrote: »

If it saves lives I'm all for it.

What about the bigger picture? All pedestrians could stay at home - that would save lives. What about banning alcohol - more lives saved. Ban motorised vehicles- even more lives saved.......

Lusk_Doyle

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

What about the bigger picture? All pedestrians could stay at home - that would save lives. What about banning alcohol - more lives saved. Ban motorised vehicles- even more lives saved.......

Don't forget x factor. Ban x factor too. Save humanity.

No Pants

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but where does it end with all the lanes then? are joggers and runners expected to jog/run on the road or the footpath?

Which one were you using?

TiltedBrain wrote: »

A cyclist struck me when I was younger, guy was coming around a wide bend at about 40 km/hr, doctor said had of been going any faster he could of killed me.

If it saves lives I'm all for it.

SteelyDanJalapeno

No Pants wrote: »

Which one were you using?

The road! there was no footpath or "Cycle" lane

Lusk_Doyle

TiltedBrain wrote: »

The road! there was no footpath or "Cycle" lane

So the basis for your question / argument is null and void.

A_Sober_Paddy

Never realised they were speed limits for bikes...I've broken a couple of the city centre ones for sure if its 30:o

Seweryn

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Never realised they were speed limits for bikes...I've broken a couple of the city centre ones for sure if its 30:o

There have been no speed limits for bicycles.

Mucco

I don't object to the idea of asking cyclists to keep to a moderate speed - in my view, encouraging any non-motorised transport is a good thing.
However, what are the triggers for this. Presumably people have been complaining about cyclists going too fast on this section. However, how many pedestrians have been killed/seriously injured (KSI) by cyclists on this section?
While a low KSI stat should not be used to justify fast cycling, it should maybe be used by the NTA when deciding the priority of their policies.

The main issue I have is that this ignores the bigger issue. The majority of people don't even question the speed of cars in the city. 1000+ Kg moving at even 30kph means pedestrians don't dare walk in the road. It's because cyclists don't cause much damage that people feel free to wander into the cycle lane.
Enforcement of a 30 kph limit in much of the city would make it much more 'liveable', as well as having a much bigger impact on KSIs.

However, though growing, cyclists are a small group, there is still an 'us' and 'them', so it is easy to pick on the minority out-group to please a vocal majority. In the Netherlands, if you walk in a bike lane (as many tourists do), you soon get blasted out of it by bells, shouts, bike-horns and close-passing bikes.

tl dr: In my view, a recommended 20kph limit would be OK as it helps encourage walking, which, indirectly, encourages more cycling, but the priority should be elsewhere.

lennymc

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Don't forget x factor. Ban x factor too. Save humanity.

Please god make it so!!

No Pants

Mucco wrote: »

1000+ Kg moving at even 30kph means pedestrians don't dare walk in the road.

I beg to differ. I see pedestrians walking out in the road all the time, frequently with their back to oncoming traffic.

Dermot Illogical

Mucco wrote: »

tl dr: In my view, a recommended 20kph limit would be OK as it helps encourage walking, which, indirectly, encourages more cycling, but the priority should be elsewhere.

To paraphrase the motoring lobby at the time of the introduction of a 30kph limit in Dublin, my bike can't go that slow!

Lusk_Doyle

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

To paraphrase the motoring lobby at the time of the introduction of a 30kph limit in Dublin, my bike can't go that slow!

I've seen you cycle so I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree :pac:

Spook_ie

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

The same way train tracks are for trains, bus lanes for busses and taxis. Stop being needlessly obtuse. It's a cycle track. There's a path beside it. You don't walk along a road when there's a perfectly good path beside it do you?

But Bus lanes aren't exclusively for buses otherwise they'd be telling cyclists not to use them......an illogical argument

cormacjones

Spook_ie wrote: »

But Bus lanes aren't exclusively for buses otherwise they'd be telling cyclists not to use them......an illogical argument

What's your angle here? Do you think there's a safety issue on that stretch of cycle path? I've been cycling, jogging and walking it for many years and have never encountered any major issues.

Spook_ie

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It doesn't shagging well matter. Look at the repeated word in each of the above...CYCLE! If you ain't on a bike then stay the FCUK off the cyle track/path/lane/pad/whatever.

cormacjones wrote: »

What's your angle here? Do you think there's a safety issue on that stretch of cycle path? I've been cycling, jogging and walking it for many years and have never encountered any major issues.

The 1st quote would be my angle

Sheldons Brain

Are the Gardaí going to stand on the roadside and use the speed guns on cyclists?

Good point. Some "sleeping policeman" ramps would seem a good idea.

cormacjones

Spook_ie wrote: »

The 1st quote would be my angle

"What's your angle" probably has connotations I didn't intend. I just don't think there's an issue with this stretch of cycle path.

Spook_ie

cormacjones wrote: »

"What's your angle" probably has connotations I didn't intend. I just don't think there's an issue with this stretch of cycle path.

Depends on which bit of it they are proposing to limit speeds on, there is a good chance that now cycle tracks are no longer obligatory that someones decided that the sections marked as cycle only should be reclassified and pedestrians be legally allowed to share the the tracks and enjoy the seafront walks

Lusk_Doyle

Spook_ie wrote: »

Depends on which bit of it they are proposing to limit speeds on, there is a good chance that now cycle tracks are no longer obligatory that someones decided that the sections marked as cycle only should be reclassified and pedestrians be legally allowed to share the the tracks and enjoy the seafront walks

Hold on just a minute now. Are you saying that you have to be able to share the track to enjoy the seafront walks when the actual pedestrian intended path is both wider than and closer to the seafront than the cycle part? Seriously?

cormacjones

Spook_ie wrote: »

Depends on which bit of it they are proposing to limit speeds on, there is a good chance that now cycle tracks are no longer obligatory that someones decided that the sections marked as cycle only should be reclassified and pedestrians be legally allowed to share the the tracks and enjoy the seafront walks

Eh? Are you familiar with the area?

monument

cormacjones wrote: »

Eh? Are you familiar with the area?

Only under the bridge. Trolls like bridges.

Spook_ie

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Hold on just a minute now. Are you saying that you have to be able to share the track to enjoy the seafront walks when the actual pedestrian intended path is both wider than and closer to the seafront than the cycle part? Seriously?

cormacjones wrote: »

Eh? Are you familiar with the area?

Not intimately but from these images where would you prefer to walk?

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.379062,-6.156847&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.379062,-6.156847&panoid=z20xVUFTY6aMfkVvaYdUzQ&cbp=12,203.97,,0,-6.31&z=20

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.377592,-6.159676&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.377592,-6.159676&panoid=2p5FOTMeuO2VnaxsC4z7bg&cbp=12,113.97,,0,-6.31

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.374871,-6.163539&spn=0.00208,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.374674,-6.163802&panoid=JOSN3b56m3uLYLQY6GL-JQ&cbp=12,184.28,,0,-8.41

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.360739,-6.182567&spn=0.001034,0.002411&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.360688,-6.182701&panoid=RHGO0bZZJBTLoLlV18wMtA&cbp=12,233.58,,0,1.9&z=19

Cookie_Monster

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not intimately but from these images where would you prefer to walk?

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.379062,-6.156847&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.379062,-6.156847&panoid=z20xVUFTY6aMfkVvaYdUzQ&cbp=12,203.97,,0,-6.31&z=20

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.377592,-6.159676&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.377592,-6.159676&panoid=2p5FOTMeuO2VnaxsC4z7bg&cbp=12,113.97,,0,-6.31

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.374871,-6.163539&spn=0.00208,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.374674,-6.163802&panoid=JOSN3b56m3uLYLQY6GL-JQ&cbp=12,184.28,,0,-8.41

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.360739,-6.182567&spn=0.001034,0.002411&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.360688,-6.182701&panoid=RHGO0bZZJBTLoLlV18wMtA&cbp=12,233.58,,0,1.9&z=19

In the middle of the road tbh, but I'm sure you'd find as much fault with that :rolleyes:

Spook_ie

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

In the middle of the road tbh, but I'm sure you'd find as much fault with that :rolleyes:

Really, you do surprise me I wouldn't have thought many people would prefer to walk in the middle of the road, no accounting for some people you though eh?

fixed my own post

Cookie_Monster

Spook_ie wrote: »

Really, you do surprise me I wouldn't have thought many people would prefer to walk in the middle of the road, no accounting for some people though eh?

there sure isn't...

CramCycle

No Pants wrote: »

I beg to differ. I see pedestrians walking out in the road all the time, frequently with their back to oncoming traffic.

I had a guy walking along the cycle track on the way home last night, in the pitch black, there was an empty footpad and road either side of him. Gardai past by and indicated to him that he should get on the footpath for his own safety.

SilverLiningOK

Reading through this and related threads seems to raise an interesting theme - cycling as sport versus cycling as transport.

I think the only reason that many roadies uses this Clontarf track is that it has a better surface for speed when compared to the road. Other people cycling will have different needs such as keeping away from busy road, cycling with children etc.

One of the main obstacles to people choosing cycling as transport in the English speaking world is one of the perceived image of those who cycle (see cycle chic and copehagenize for more on this). People who dont cycle see lycra, helmets, high viz, safety glasses and other special equipment as a barrier. In other places not too far away choosing your bicycle as everyday transport for work, school, shopping and socialising in everyday ordinary clothes is the norm.

Another important barrier to normalised cycling is the infrastructure available up to recently. Routes like the on the Clontarf Road, Sutton, Grand Canal etc. may not perfect but they are a major factor in attracting more people to transport cycling.

I see the various potential conflicts in Clontarf regularly particularly on weekends. A bit of give and take and common sense all around would do no harm here. It is such a pleasure cycling at a relaxed pace with fresh air and the sea views. If people think that they are riding the bike equivalent of BMW/Merc then they shoud look around them and cycle at a speed according to the conditions taking into account the other people on their bicycles who are not members of the roadie tribe.

This whole speed limit business must have some gripe or complaint behind it. It seemed to come out of the blue last week. Was it on Liveline ? Or was it somebody working for independent newspapers who has a personal issue here ?

le petit braquet

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not intimately but from these images where would you prefer to walk?

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.379062,-6.156847&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.379062,-6.156847&panoid=z20xVUFTY6aMfkVvaYdUzQ&cbp=12,203.97,,0,-6.31&z=20

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.377592,-6.159676&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.377592,-6.159676&panoid=2p5FOTMeuO2VnaxsC4z7bg&cbp=12,113.97,,0,-6.31

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.374871,-6.163539&spn=0.00208,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.374674,-6.163802&panoid=JOSN3b56m3uLYLQY6GL-JQ&cbp=12,184.28,,0,-8.41

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.360739,-6.182567&spn=0.001034,0.002411&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.360688,-6.182701&panoid=RHGO0bZZJBTLoLlV18wMtA&cbp=12,233.58,,0,1.9&z=19

I think your choice of images illustrates your lack of familiarity with the area.

In the first three links if you look towards the sea you will see a path with a solid white line. The white line is the cut-off between the pedestrian walkway which is nearest the sea and the cycle lane which is landward. So pedestrians are being given the "nicest" view, but as you can see from the other posts, they wander across the white line, let dogs on extender leads wander in etc.

If you look at the fourth link then there is a completely separate path seaward (if that's a term) of the cycle lane. Again pedestrians get the nicer view but still some want to walk/jog on the cycle path.

Jawgap

I'm not sure how there could be any conflict.....

.....there is a track for cyclists and paths for pedestrians, joggers, dog walkers etc.

.....each is clearly sign posted, marked and delineated

.....there are clearly marked points at which people can cross the cycle track to get to the grassed areas and the path

.....if people simply stuck to the fairly simple rules (something they seem incapable of) then there'd be no conflict.

I'm not sure why anyone walking or running would want to use the cycle track anyway - it 's closer to the traffic and further from the sea! If the City Council want to swap them around so I can cycle right beside the sea, then I'm all for it.

The issue came about because someone fired the starting gun on the local election campaign.

BTW, this 'roadie tribe' who are they and who is their chief

Jawgap

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not intimately but from these images where would you prefer to walk?

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.379062,-6.156847&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.379062,-6.156847&panoid=z20xVUFTY6aMfkVvaYdUzQ&cbp=12,203.97,,0,-6.31&z=20

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.377592,-6.159676&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.377592,-6.159676&panoid=2p5FOTMeuO2VnaxsC4z7bg&cbp=12,113.97,,0,-6.31

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.374871,-6.163539&spn=0.00208,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.374674,-6.163802&panoid=JOSN3b56m3uLYLQY6GL-JQ&cbp=12,184.28,,0,-8.41

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.360739,-6.182567&spn=0.001034,0.002411&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.360688,-6.182701&panoid=RHGO0bZZJBTLoLlV18wMtA&cbp=12,233.58,,0,1.9&z=19

only the last image is of the Promenade to which the proposal applies and runners have three options - the path running along side the road, the cycle track or the path running by the sea.

I know which one I'd choose if I was running or walking.

SilverLiningOK

Jawgap wrote: »

The issue came about because someone fired the starting gun on the local election campaign.

That could work both ways. Do candidates not know that people who vote can also cycle ? They are not mutually exclusive. Demanding from candidates their views on cycling issues such as cycle infrastructure plans, road of the road, bye laws to protect those cycling and general space for cyclng, might not be such a bad idea.

People who choose the bicycle can also lobby either as individuals or through organistions such as the Dublin Cycling Campaign. Making cycling an election issue as a cost effective solution to alleviate urban traffic congestion is surely a good idea.

Jawgap

SilverLiningOK wrote: »

That could work both ways. Do candidates not know that people who vote can also cycle ? They are not mutually exclusive. Demanding from candidates their views on cycling issues such as cycle infrastructure plans, road of the road, bye laws to protect those cycling and general space for cyclng, might not be such a bad idea.

People who choose the bicycle can also lobby either as individuals or through organistions such as the Dublin Cycling Campaign. Making cycling an election issue as a cost effective solution to alleviate urban traffic congestion is surely a good idea.

You're approaching this rationally!!

It's the local elections - the candidates will respond to whoever is shrieking the loudest, then they'll try to outdo each other in the rhetoric stakes. They're also not interested in who might vote but in who is most likely to vote.

You're ideas are sound and pragmatic, but is sound and pragmatic were the watchwords of Irish political life then you wouldn't get this......

LOLLYPOP LADIES BACK MCGRATH ON CYCLISTS

SilverLiningOK

Jawgap wrote: »

You're approaching this rationally!!

It's the local elections - the candidates will respond to whoever is shrieking the loudest, then they'll try to outdo each other in the rhetoric stakes. They're also not interested in who might vote but in who is most likely to vote.

You're ideas are sound and pragmatic, but is sound and pragmatic were the watchwords of Irish political life then you wouldn't get this......

LOLLYPOP LADIES BACK MCGRATH ON CYCLISTS

Taking all the madness that go into elections in Ireland, its still worth doing. Other lobbies such as road hauliers, motorists associations, businesses etc. are already working up front and behind the scenes to effectively reduce the numbers of people cycling by using various fear tactics. Groups such as these may have large financial resources and media access, but why not hear it from the cyclists as well.

Finian is really testing me to move my vote elsewhere away from him and his merry band. He will of course shout his usual "party man/woman" when challenged.

Another important major obstacle to improving cycling infrastructure is lack of political will. If the candidates hear it on the doorsteps it might register. The anti cycling views seem to get far more attention than the other side. They seem to think that they are more important voters ?

lennymc

will anyone raise this as an issue at the ci agm this year?
Actually, will anyone attend the ci agm this year?

Lusk_Doyle

Spook_ie wrote: »

Not intimately but from these images where would you prefer to walk?

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.379062,-6.156847&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.379062,-6.156847&panoid=z20xVUFTY6aMfkVvaYdUzQ&cbp=12,203.97,,0,-6.31&z=20

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.377592,-6.159676&spn=0.000517,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.377592,-6.159676&panoid=2p5FOTMeuO2VnaxsC4z7bg&cbp=12,113.97,,0,-6.31

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.374871,-6.163539&spn=0.00208,0.004823&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.374674,-6.163802&panoid=JOSN3b56m3uLYLQY6GL-JQ&cbp=12,184.28,,0,-8.41

https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.360739,-6.182567&spn=0.001034,0.002411&t=h&layer=c&cbll=53.360688,-6.182701&panoid=RHGO0bZZJBTLoLlV18wMtA&cbp=12,233.58,,0,1.9&z=19

If you don't know the area, which you clearly don't then you should leave the debate. In all of those photos the pedestrian path is the one furthest away from the road. That there happens to be another one nearer the road also is of no consequence and should make it totally clear and unacceptable for a ped to chose the middle located cycle track.

Dermot Illogical

To level the playing field somewhat, I have made a simple image showing the layout of the area in question.
It's not to OS standards, but should give an idea.

laraghrider

micar wrote: »

I despise having to cycle on the road between the bridges going to over to dollymount. The cycle lanes heading northwards is a disgrace. I had my worse accident there when the tires when into a groove and i have jump the bike out. Had no time to clip out and the bike went in against the curb and flipped me over.

That took me clean off the bike a couple of weeks back. Front wheel went into a groove and jumped sideways. Next time I'm heading face first into the deck. Ripped the sidwall of my tyre as well.

Dermot Illogical

laraghrider wrote: »

That took me clean off the bike a couple of weeks back. Front wheel went into a groove and jumped sideways. Next time I'm heading face first into the deck. Ripped the sidwall of my tyre as well.

I reported that piece of road on dublincity.ie and the current status is "referred for inspection".
https://dcciservices.dublincity.ie/ if anyone wants to add to it.

No Pants

Jawgap wrote: »

LOLLYPOP LADIES BACK MCGRATH ON CYCLISTS

One motorist said in relation to cyclists “if you criticise these untouchables” then they equate your comments to being anti-Semitic or anti-gay”.

"Cyclists are gay and Jewish," says Finian McGrath.

nomdeboardie

No Pants wrote: »

One motorist said in relation to cyclists “if you criticise these untouchables” then they equate your comments to being anti-Semitic or anti-gay”.

"Cyclists are gay and Jewish," says Finian McGrath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythrdCsOFJU

Kav0777

Jawgap wrote: »

LOLLYPOP LADIES BACK MCGRATH ON CYCLISTS

A constituent of mine’s wife was hit by a racing cyclist in Raheny and suffered broken wrist and in severe pain.

I didn't know there were road races in Raheny, when did that race happen?

Spook_ie

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

To level the playing field somewhat, I have made a simple image showing the layout of the area in question.
It's not to OS standards, but should give an idea.

I'll still ask as a pedestrian which is the more attractive to walk on? Bear in mind that like cyclists not all pedestrians are like minded and some would prefer to have a leisurely stroll by the sea and others would prefer just not to be on the footpath right next to the road.

Spook_ie

Kav0777 wrote: »

I didn't know there were road races in Raheny, when did that race happen?

Every rush hour probably, you don't have to be in a race to be a racing cyclist

Edit: Just don't have a bell fitted and you could be construed as being a racing cyclist
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0190.html#zzsi190y1963a28

"Pedal cycles.
93. (1) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle constructed or adapted for use as a racing cycle) while used in a public place shall be fitted with an audible warning device consisting of a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance, and no other type of audible warning instrument shall be fitted to a pedal cycle while used in a public place."

Dermot Illogical

Spook_ie wrote: »

I'll still ask as a pedestrian which is the more attractive to walk on? Bear in mind that like cyclists not all pedestrians are like minded and some would prefer to have a leisurely stroll by the sea and others would prefer just not to be on the footpath right next to the road.

If all pedestrians aren't like-minded how can I answer your question?
Tell me what your own preference is and I'll make a recommendation.