Will you wear a poppy 2013?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 8:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not covering anything Nodin, just pointing out the hypocrisy of the average republican.

You included.

But Fred, if Sean Russell changed his name to Hitler Von Ribbentrop Goebbels O' Killderjuden, it makes a rats ass of a difference to the facts of the matter.

The poppy funds go to ex-british service personnel. The British army policed the Empire. The Empire (like all Empires) was an evil, vile thing. You don't seem able to admit that though.

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:00pm

Nodin wrote: »

Anti-semetic cockology.

The Sassoon family was heavily involved in the shipping and opium production industry in China and India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassoon_family

:eek:

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:01pm

Charlie Rock wrote: »

From where we're sitting now after the horrors have been exposed it does seem pretty horrendous but you'll be aware of the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' military doctrine and it was the late 1930's.

Sure didn't Britain collude with mass murderer Joseph Stalin?

The enemy of my enemy should be allowed to invade my country?

I must confess to not having been everywhere in the UK, but last I heard there is no monument to Stalin or people hero worshipping him. In fact, the same army you despise was largely designed around keeping him and his proteges out of western Europe.

Ie, protecting all of us on these islands.

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:02pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The enemy of my enemy should be allowed to invade my country?

I must confess to not having been everywhere in the UK, but last I heard there is no monument to Stalin or people hero worshipping him. In fact, the same army you despise was largely designed around keeping him and his proteges out of western Europe.

Ie, protecting all of us on these islands.

Belatedly. Mostly it was designed to deal with unruly brown folk who had mad ideas about governing themselves.

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:03pm

Nodin wrote: »

But Fred, if Sean Russell changed his name to Hitler Von Ribbentrop Goebbels O' Killderjuden, it makes a rats ass of a difference to the facts of the matter.

The poppy funds go to ex-british service personnel. The British army policed the Empire. The Empire (like all Empires) was an evil, vile thing. You don't seem able to admit that though.

I know where they go and there will be those receiving funds who don't deserve them, but for every one that doesn't, there will be a thousand that do.

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:03pm

tiger55 wrote: »

The Sassoon family was heavily involved in the shipping and opium production industry in China and India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassoon_family

:eek:

That's not quite the slant you and your Nazi buddies have on it though, is it?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:04pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know where they go and there will be those receiving funds who don't deserve them, but for every one that doesn't, there will be a thousand that do.

That's debatable, and ultimately unprovable.

....still can't renounce the Empire, can ye?

.jacksparrow. · 23-10-2013 9:05pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know where they go and there will be those receiving funds who don't deserve them, but for every one that doesn't, there will be a thousand that do.

So you're admitting there was a few bad apples?

Which is the case in any army or conflict.

Something you conveniently forget when it comes to Irish republicans.

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:05pm

Nodin wrote: »

But Fred, if Sean Russell changed his name to Hitler Von Ribbentrop Goebbels O' Killderjuden, it makes a rats ass of a difference to the facts of the matter.

The poppy funds go to ex-british service personnel. The British army policed the Empire. The Empire (like all Empires) was an evil, vile thing. You don't seem able to admit that though.

Yes, there was an Irish "Empire" of sorts. It was a fairly meager affair compared to say, the Romans, or our neighbours, but back in ~400/500 AD the Irish had control of most of Scotland, a chunk of Wales, possibly Iceland, and if I remember correctly some of Greenland. There's a slim possibility that some of Gaul was held for a time, but that was probably just raiding ground for the kings of this period. Niall of the Nine hostages is said to have been assassinated in Gaul, and his nephew apparently died at the foot of the Alps a few years later, while reigning.

How true all that is, I cannot say. The "Empire" had a lucrative slave trade, and that was a primary reason for its existence. The "Empire" never truly went away, as Scotland, or "Scotia" was the original name for Ireland and the Irish were Scots, and it is from the Irish occupation of Pictland that "Scotland" came. That is why today, the Scots are still essentially culturally Irish (I should say Gaelic) - their games, their language etc. But after Ireland collapsed into successive civil wars there was no Empire, and if we're honest, it only existed in a very loose sense anyway.

Niall of the Nine Hostages was the man behind the aggressive Irish expansion, and he is a very interesting character. Supposedly 10% of the Population of Ireland are descended from him, and 25% of Scotland! Our main problem is of course, that the Irish didn't have writing for a long time, and did not regard, even when they had writing, overseas lands as belonging to them. A High King might be referred to as Ard-Rí of Alba & Éire if he held sway in both parts.

Rí Fhiongaill is the real expert in this area.

http://historum.com/general-history/25231-did-irish-ever-have-empire-their-own.html

The old saying went:

The Irish won an Empire
The Scots ran an Empire
The English lost an Empire

http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign-affairs/155647-irish-empire-ever-cards.html

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/155685-irelands-empire-greatest-world-ever-seen.html

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:07pm

Nodin wrote: »

Belatedly. Mostly it was designed to deal with unruly brown folk who had mad ideas about governing themselves.

The Mau Maus were the good guys were they?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:07pm

tiger55 wrote: »

Yes, there was an.............

Well, at least you aren't on about the Jews again....

Nobody sells shamrocks for an Irish Empire. You might explain whatever point it is you're trying to make..............

An Coilean · 23-10-2013 9:08pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I3
Al Qeada started attacking the west long before anyone other than human rights campaigners even looked at Afghanistan.

That would kind of overlook that fact that the last time the UK invaded Afganistan was not the first time the UK invaded Afganistan.

The reality is that Britain and other countires in the West have a long history of violent involvment in the middle east.
To put it bluntly, for all their awful awfulness, Al Qeada did not start it.

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:09pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Mau Maus were the good guys were they?

The Mau mau, the Indians, the Burmese, the Arabs across various states as they were then....the British had no right to be there.

And you still can't renounce the Empire....sweet jesus Fred...were you brought up in the 1930's or something?

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:11pm

Nodin wrote: »

That's debatable, and ultimately unprovable.

....still can't renounce the Empire, can ye?

I know your still living in 1916, but there is no empire any more.

No empire was ever a good thing, but they were an intrinsic part of human history, it's what shaped the world for the past three millennia.

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:12pm

"The analysis of the histories of the almost 200 countries in the world found only 22 which have never experienced an invasion by the British. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

Busy as busy bees.................

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:12pm

Nodin wrote: »

Well, at least you aren't on about the Jews again....

Nobody sells shamrocks for an Irish Empire. You might explain whatever point it is you're trying to make..............

Every group of people on earth have enslaved/colonised another group, its the way things were back then.

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:14pm

Nodin wrote: »

"The analysis of the histories of the almost 200 countries in the world found only 22 which have never experienced an invasion by the British. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

Busy as busy bees.................

You do realise that includes Scots/Irish/Welsh also...

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:14pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know your still living in 1916, but there is no empire any more..

Thankfully.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No empire was ever a good thing, but they were an intrinsic part of human history, it's what shaped the world for the past three millennia.

Yet you can't condemn what was still going on up through the late 20th century. Again, sad.

vermin99 · 23-10-2013 9:15pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Why does this come up every year?

The issue is quite simple.

The Poppy/Remembrance Sunday thing is a British occasion, and it is also marked by some Commonwealth countries such as Canada and Australia.

Ireland is no different to countries such as France, Germany, USA,Netherlands, Belgium, Poland etc that do not mark this occasion and remember their war dead in their own way.

There is no outcry or controversy about other countries not wearing poppies so why should there be here?

^^^^ now this person has the sense here ,and I won't be wearing a poppy ever

DEFTLEFTHAND · 23-10-2013 9:15pm

tiger55 wrote: »

Wearing of the poppy started as it was the 1st thing to grow in the horrors of the aftermath of the Somme in 1917.

It's origin actually predates the Somme. It comes from a poem written in 1915 by Canadian military man John McCrae, Poppies grew over the makeshift graveyards of soldiers in Flanders.

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:16pm

An Coilean wrote: »

That would kind of overlook that fact that the last time the UK invaded Afganistan was not the first time the UK invaded Afganistan.

The reality is that Britain and other countires in the West have a long history of violent involvment in the middle east.
To put it bluntly, for all their awful awfulness, Al Qeada did not start it.

Err, you do realise that the Arabs weren't exactly a shy retiring bunch don't you?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:16pm

tiger55 wrote: »

You do realise that includes Scots/Irish/Welsh also...

Yep. You've a point?

tiger55 wrote: »

Every group of people on earth have enslaved/colonised another group, its the
way things were back then.

And it was wrong. It should not be glorified.

You realise "back then" refers to as recent as 60-70 years ago?

Karl Stein · 23-10-2013 9:19pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I must confess to not having been everywhere in the UK, but last I heard there is no monument to Stalin or people hero worshipping him.

There are plenty of monuments to British imperialists and mercenaries.

In fact, the same army you despise...

*sigh* I don't despise the BA. I despise some of the things they did in Ireland but I realise they're human beings too.

Ie, protecting all of us on these islands.

That's a debate for another day.

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Something you conveniently forget when it comes to Irish republicans.

In fairness to Fred I don't think he views the PIRA (or the old IRA ftm) as quite the bunch of maniac murderers others do.

Fratton Fred · 23-10-2013 9:19pm

Nodin wrote: »

Yet you can't condemn what was still going on up through the late 20th century. Again, sad.

Why do you want me to condemn it?

Do you condemn the actions of Sean Russell and Seamus O'Donovan?

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:19pm

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. You've a point?

And it was wrong. It should not be glorified.

You realise "back then" refers to as recent as 60-70 years ago?

You yak on like you have just been released from 50 years of slavery

Can i remind you that North Africans invaded Ireland for slaves for hundreds of years.

Ever heard of Barbary Pirates?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:21pm

tiger55 wrote: »

You yak on like you have just been released from 50 years of slavery

Can i remind you that North Africans invaded Ireland for slaves for hundreds of years.

Ever heard of Barbary Pirates?

Yep, I have. Are they selling some sort of flower for the benefit of slaver veterans?

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:23pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why do you want me to condemn it??

Because its evil and wrong? And you should want to condemn it, Fred.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you condemn the actions of Sean Russell and Seamus O'Donovan?

'But whatabout the Belgians....'

In hindsight it was a bad idea, however they merely sought a European ally, as had been a tradition since the time of the O'Neils.

tiger55 · 23-10-2013 9:24pm

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, I have. Are they selling some sort of flower for the benefit of slaver veterans?

I dont think there are any Barbary pirate veterans alive.:P

vermin99 · 23-10-2013 9:24pm

Charlie Rock wrote: »

In fairness to Fred I don't think he views the PIRA (or the old IRA ftm) as quite the bunch of maniac murderers others do.

I honestly can't see why English people immediatly call IRA men murders ,like if you think about if the english kept out and minded there own business all those years ago ,the IRA wouldn't have to go murdering.And to be fair you could say the same about the British army in some cases.IMO
Don't get me wrong the peace process was one of the best things happened to this land but the ira were not murderers

Nodin · 23-10-2013 9:25pm

tiger55 wrote: »

I dont think there are any Barbary pirate veterans alive.:P

....so why did you mention them?

Will you wear a poppy 2013?

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