Will you wear a poppy 2013?

UraTwat

There's a big difference between being locked into a countries tax system and buying into an outward display of support for a racist empire.

wazky

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Where did you read that wearing a poppy means that you support war?

Because it actually supports the motion of fair treatment of flowers during times of war?

bumper234

UraTwat wrote: »

There's a big difference between being locked into a countries tax system and buying into an outward display of support for a racist empire.

But who is "locking" them into the countries tax system? Who is forcing them to work in the UK? If you were to feel so strongly about the British army that you would deny someone the right to wear a poppy in remembrance of his dead grandfather then surly there is no way you would pay tax to the government that funds this vicious killing machine right?

Nodin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Where did you read that wearing a poppy means that you support war?

According to bumper, the paying of tax means you support war, so really the poppy is irrelevant at this stage.

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

But who is "locking" them into the countries tax system? Who is forcing them to work in the UK? If you were to feel so strongly about the British army that you would deny someone the right to wear a poppy in remembrance of his dead grandfather then surly there is no way you would pay tax to the government that funds this vicious killing machine right?

Reductio ad absurdum.

moxin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Where did you read that wearing a poppy means that you support war?

Red poppy funds go to soldiers presently in a war in Afghanistan and all other conflicts the BA is involved in, past and present. Wear a white poppy for peace instead, say no to any more war by the BA.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/poppy-appeal

Every poppy helps us to support the British Armed Forces past and present, and their families

UraTwat

bumper234 wrote: »

But who is "locking" them into the countries tax system? Who is forcing them to work in the UK? If you were to feel so strongly about the British army that you would deny someone the right to wear a poppy in remembrance of his dead grandfather then surly there is no way you would pay tax to the government that funds this vicious killing machine right?

That's a weak argument to be fair. If you are talking about people moving to a country for a better life and having to pay tax there, because there is no real other alternative, compared to people wearing on their person a symbol that supports years and years of killing in the name of.. well that's not really a good comparison.

A 'dead grandfather' kind of romanticises the whole thing. A frail old man. Not a footsoldier of a nasty empire running other men through. I feel if you want to remember these soldiers and donate, do so, but why the need for the outward display of support? It just seems very passive aggressive.

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

According to bumper, the paying of tax means you support war, so really the poppy is irrelevant at this stage.

Where did i say paying tax = supporting war?

I said Irish people CHOOSING to work in the UK knowing that their taxes will help fund the military should not be here whinging about someone wanting to wear a poppy to remember their grandparents who fought in ww1 and 2.

Don't take the moral high ground and claim that money from poppy sales goes to murderers when taxes also do the same thing.

Hilly Bill

moxin wrote: »

Red poppy funds go to soldiers presently in a war in Afghanistan and all other conflicts the BA is involved in, past and present. Wear a white poppy for peace instead, say no to any more war by the BA.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/poppy-appeal

No.

bumper234

UraTwat wrote: »

That's a weak argument to be fair. If you are talking about people moving to a country for a better life and having to pay tax there, because there is no real other alternative, compared to people wearing on their person a symbol that supports years and years of killing in the name of.. well that's not really a good comparison.

The alternative is stay in Ireland.

UraTwat wrote: »

A 'dead grandfather' kind of romanticises the whole thing. A frail old man. Not a footsoldier of a nasty empire running other men through. I feel if you want to remember these soldiers and donate, do so, but why the need for the outward display of support? It just seems very passive aggressive.

War is not pretty, My grandfather lost limbs in ww2 and he died from respiratory illness from the mustard gas he ingested in ww1. Many Irish went and fought in the same wars and some would call them traitors, these would be the same people who now live in the UK working there and paying taxes to a government and funding that same army.

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

Where did i say paying tax = supporting war?

I said Irish people CHOOSING to work in the UK knowing that their taxes will help fund the military should not be here whinging about someone wanting to wear a poppy to remember their grandparents who fought in ww1 and 2.

Don't take the moral high ground and claim that money from poppy sales goes to murderers when taxes also do the same thing.

......again - moving to the UK is motivated by a number of factors. You're at the oul Reductio ad absurdum again. By your lights everytime a government is elected people disagree with, they should abandon ship and emigrate. It's simplistic nonsense.

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

......again - moving to the UK is motivated by a number of factors. You're at the oul Reductio ad absurdum again. By your lights everytime a government is elected people disagree with, they should abandon ship and emigrate. It's simplistic nonsense.

No

I am saying if someone feels so badly about the British army and the atrocities they took part in, why would they go to live in the country and pay taxes KNOWING that the taxes they pay go to fund the same British army.

It keeps getting bought up that the poppy money goes to the soldiers of ALL wars and it's terrible how Irish people may buy one and wear one knowing this, but it seems ok to overlook that MANY Irish have and still do work in the UK and pay taxes to fund the same.

I don't agree with America's foreign policy, I would never go to work in America knowing that my tax dollars were being spent on keeping the likes of Guantanamo open (who will be the first to scream about buying American products?).

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

No

I am saying if (.............)can products?).

Again - reduction to the absurd, simplistic tosh.

UraTwat

bumper234 wrote: »

The alternative is stay in Ireland.




War is not pretty, My grandfather lost limbs in ww2 and he died from respiratory illness from the mustard gas he ingested in ww1. Many Irish went and fought in the same wars and some would call them traitors, these would be the same people who now live in the UK working there and paying taxes to a government and funding that same army.

But it is not choice, whether they fund or not, it is near on impossible to get by in a modern society without paying tax in the country you live in. You have a real choice if you want to buy a poppy or not.

I'd say broadly you have two types of Irish people who join the british Army, those who have done it for the money and those who, like mentioned before, fancy themselves as fighter pilots or other parts of a war machine. Whatever about the second lot, the former, while I feel bad that they had no other option than join the british army to put food on the table, I feel no need to honour their choice. As I'm sure somewhere down my own ancestors line one of them may have killed for money or food. While I can sympathise for them somewhat, if I found out tomorrow about them I would in no way feel inclined to wear a flower in their memory.

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

Again - reduction to the absurd, simplistic tosh.

Why?

£2 on a poppy is bad but £10,000 in taxes is ok?

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

Why?

£2 on a poppy is bad but £10,000 in taxes is ok?

Your nonsense has been dealt with by myself and a number of posters. I'd suggest to stop digging, have a fag and a nice cup of tay, and coming back with a decent argument.

bumper234

UraTwat wrote: »

But it is not choice, whether they fund or not, it is near on impossible to get by in a modern society without paying tax in the country you live in. You have a real choice if you want to buy a poppy or not.

I'd say broadly you have two types of Irish people who join the british Army, those who have done it for the money and those who, like mentioned before, fancy themselves as fighter pilots or other parts of a war machine. Whatever about the second lot, the former, while I feel bad that they had no other option than join the british army to put food on the table, I feel no need to honour their choice. As I'm sure somewhere down my own ancestors line one of them may have killed for money or food. While I can sympathise for them somewhat, if I found out tomorrow about them I would in no way feel inclined to wear a flower in their memory.

You wouldn't do that because you wouldn't have known them on a personal level. I know you cannot get by without paying taxes I am talking of the posters on here who take the moral high ground about wearing a poppy but have no problem leaving Ireland to go work in the UK and pay thousands in tax which helps support the imperialistic regime and the murderous army that they wring their hands about.

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

Your nonsense has been dealt with by myself and a number of posters. I'd suggest to stop digging, have a fag and a nice cup of tay, and coming back with a decent argument.

I don't smoke. You have not answered why it's ok to pay 10k in tax that goes towards the MOD but jot 2 pound to remember my dead grandfather's?

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

I don't smoke. You have not answered why it's ok to pay 10k in tax that goes towards the MOD but jot 2 pound to remember my dead grandfather's?

Its been explained to you over the last two pages or so.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87233655&postcount=1082

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234472&postcount=1088

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234649&postcount=1092

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234870&postcount=1095

I'd suggest supping on the tay and having a think.

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

You wouldn't do that because you wouldn't have known them on a personal level. I know you cannot get by without paying taxes I am talking of the posters on here who take the moral high ground about wearing a poppy but have no problem leaving Ireland to go work in the UK and pay thousands in tax which helps support the imperialistic regime and the murderous army that they wring their hands about.

.....who are these posters?

bumper234

Nodin wrote: »

Its been explained to you over the last two pages or so.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87233655&postcount=1082

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234472&postcount=1088

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234649&postcount=1092

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87234870&postcount=1095

I'd suggest supping on the tay and having a think.

I don't drink tae, tay or tea either.

No one "locks" an Irish person into the UK tax system, no one forces them to go there and work. People left this island and fought in the British army and were called traitors and to this day people say a poppy should not be worn to remember them.

The same people would choose to go to the UK and pay taxes that help fund the same British army. They choose to do this and if you don't see the hypocrisy in that then you are even more blinded by your hatred for the UK than I first thought.

UraTwat

bumper234 wrote: »

You wouldn't do that because you wouldn't have known them on a personal level. I know you cannot get by without paying taxes I am talking of the posters on here who take the moral high ground about wearing a poppy but have no problem leaving Ireland to go work in the UK and pay thousands in tax which helps support the imperialistic regime and the murderous army that they wring their hands about.

If i knew one somehow on a personal level, who had to kill to survive, I would salut them myself and maybe even raise a glass, lamenting a terrible state of affairs they found themselves in to put food on their families plate. But I would not feel the need to toast everyone of their time who killed for food, and especially wouldn't feel a desire to proclaim this through the wearing of a flower.

I think furthering the whole, those who pay tax are as bad in funding the war machine and are as much to blame, thing is a bit sticky. It's hard to see where intention ends and responsibility to survive begins. I'm sure someone moving there for a better life has not a thought in their head that they may have to kill a man to do so. But if they are moving there to join the army they would be very aware they may have to kill. It's kind of like berating a vegetarian because somewhere in their life system an animal had to be killed to make it so. They would sooner it didn't, but the world system they have found themselves in makes it near on impossible for them to function without some death happening.

Why the need for the outward display of support? Why not just send the 2 quid on every year without the need for the flower to get involved?

Nodin

bumper234 wrote: »

I don't drink tae, tay or tea either.

No one "locks" an Irish person into the UK tax system, no one forces them to go there and work. People left this island and fought in the British army and were called traitors and to this day people say a poppy should not be worn to remember them.

The same people would choose to go to the UK and pay taxes that help fund the same British army. They choose to do this and if you don't see the hypocrisy in that then you are even more blinded by your hatred for the UK than I first thought.

This has been explained to you. If you've a specific rebuttal of the posts I linked, please quote the offending section with your refutation below as is the norm.

And who are these posters, btw?

darlett

I'm think its too soon. Maybe next year. This year I'm just going to be wearing a puppy.

blueser

UraTwat wrote: »

If i knew one somehow on a personal level, who had to kill to survive, I would salut them myself and maybe even raise a glass, lamenting a terrible state of affairs they found themselves in to put food on their families plate. But I would not feel the need to toast everyone of their time who killed for food, and especially wouldn't feel a desire to proclaim this through the wearing of a flower.

I think furthering the whole, those who pay tax are as bad in funding the war machine and are as much to blame, thing is a bit sticky. It's hard to see where intention ends and responsibility to survive begins. I'm sure someone moving there for a better life has not a thought in their head that they may have to kill a man to do so. But if they are moving there to join the army they would be very aware they may have to kill. It's kind of like berating a vegetarian because somewhere in their life system an animal had to be killed to make it so. They would sooner it didn't, but the world system they have found themselves in makes it near on impossible for them to function without some death happening.

Why the need for the outward display of support? Why not just send the 2 quid on every year without the need for the flower to get involved?

The same could be said of daffodil day. If someone wants to wear the poppy, that's their choice. I don't have a problem with it.

UraTwat

blueser wrote: »

The same could be said of daffodil day. If someone wants to wear the poppy, that's their choice. I don't have a problem with it.

Cancer is a common enemy of all mankind.

bumper234

UraTwat wrote: »

Cancer is a common enemy of all mankind.

So were the Nazi's.

blueser

UraTwat wrote: »

Cancer is a common enemy of all mankind.

But what has that to do with wearing the daffodil? As you said in an earlier post, send in your donation without then wearing the flower.

dublinbhoy88

bumper234 wrote: »

So were the Nazi's.

and the Brits

LOSTfan57

bumper234 wrote: »

So were the Nazi's.

The Nazi's weren't an enemy of the Nazi's.....just like the Brits, which is why you like them