Will you wear a poppy 2013?

bumper234

HansHolzel wrote: »

Anybody that types "Great" Britain on this thread is sad.

That's the name of the nation. It's the same as some people typing the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

SoulandForm

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Postulating on what may have happened is quite pointless. There's simply no way of knowing that Churchill carrying out what he was supposed to do would have led to more fighting.

Matt do you support Sinn Fein out of interest? Do you consider yourself an Irish Republican?

bobbysands81

Many a great man died to ensure I have the right to not wear a poppy nor be questioned by poppy fascists as to why I'm not wearing one.

bumper234

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Many a great man died to ensure I have the right to not wear a poppy nor be questioned by poppy fascists as to why I'm not wearing one.

When did this happen to you?

Matt_Trakker

Beefy78 wrote: »

It's hardly postulation........

Actually it is postulating.

Anyway, I said the army did little in the grand scheme of things. A few guerrilla type air attacks on Germany (with the help of Polish RAF pilots), it is common knowledge and accepted that Germany would have walked over Britain had both the Russians not been takening them apart on the Eastern front and the Americans not become involved.

Compared with the American/Russian/Japanese armies....sure the entirety of the British army is just a fraction of these.

The fact however remains, Churchill was writing cheques that he had no intention of honouring, i.e. the promise to help Poland become democratic following the end of WWII.

You can assume what you want, but I'm correct. Churchill used Poles in his army with the intention of not honouring what he promised them. Just like what British politicians promised Irish soldiers who fought for Britain in WWI. This historical fact simply cannot be denied. Only a historically illiterate buffone would even attempt to do so.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What was he supposed to do?

:rolleyes:
err, duh, he had promised to help the Poles in return for them fighting for him.

Fratton Fred

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Maybe by you there were treated that way?

I only know from my own personal history, but I've never seen, nor even heard of, Nazi collaborators as been treated as "heroes". Never heard an Irish member of the British army during WWI described as a "traitor" either.
Sure most of them did it under the pretense that it would help Ireland achieve Home Rule.
A false pretense as you may not be aware of.

I do admire the way you conveniently slip between WWI and wwii.

You've obviously never heard of Sean Russell, Frank Ryan or Seamus O'Donovan. Maybe reading up on operation dove, operation Kathleen or the green plan.

Donkey Oaty

bumper234 wrote: »

When did this happen to you?

It's unclear, but presumably it was before many a great man died to prevent it happening again.

Matt_Trakker

SoulandForm wrote: »

Matt do you support Sinn Fein out of interest? Do you consider yourself an Irish Republican?

No to the first one.
A maybe to the 2nd.
I'd be more of an SDLP person, peace achieved through politics y'know.

end of the road

Beefy78 wrote: »

And yet you expected this "small army", after six years of war, to stand up to the Soviet Union without the support of America?

yes, their good at wanting to play with the big boys so they should have gone and stood up to them without america

bobbysands81

bumper234 wrote: »

When did this happen to you?

On one of the many occassions that I've been cornered by 'war heroes' begging for money in exchange for a poppy after having put their lives on the line for 'Great Britain' in time of need they're repaid by being ignored in their time of need.

Matt_Trakker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I do admire the way you conveniently slip between WWI and wwii.

You've obviously never heard of Sean Russell, Frank Ryan or Seamus O'Donovan. Maybe reading up on operation dove, operation Kathleen or the green plan.

I'm well aware of who these people were and their actions.
Maybe you see these people as heroes, I certainly do not.
Besides, nothing came of these 'operations' so I fail to see what it has to do with the point I'm arguing. i.e. Churchill lied to and then sold out the Poles.

T runner

Judgement Day wrote: »

Would you like us to remove the graves of our family members who were in the British armed services too? As for being an 'Anglo-Irish' social club...it may be more of a social club than a Church of Christ but it's representative of its community and far less 'Anglo' these days. We haven't gone away you know and, yes, I'll be wearing a poppy bought in Enniscorthy.

Your choice. If an ancestor of mine died there, I would have no problem wearing a poppy if it was a universal symbol about the evil of war...and of Imperialism....because that what WW1 says to me..... It was empires having a squable and sending (and conscripting) millions of innocent men to be slaughtered.

But its not, it is de facto the main PR vehicle for war acceptance in Britain.

You can see how it is related to British nationalism by the vitriol that is poured on puiblic figures who dont wish to wear it.

The monies goes to soldiers, many of whom have not behaved with honour, and many of those in Ireland.

I will never and could never bring myself to support men from an organisation who have killed Irish men woman and children.

It might be traditional for people to buy the poppy. Traditions do need to be examined though and cant be sacred.

Fratton Fred

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

I'm well aware of who these people were and their actions.
Maybe you see these people as heroes, I certainly do not.
Besides, nothing came of these 'operations' so I fail to see what it has to do with the point I'm arguing. i.e. Churchill lied to and then sold out the Poles.

Actually, your main point seems to be taking as many pot shots at the British as you can.

You stated that many brave Irishmen fought against the Nazis in wwii, which they did, but where are the memorials? Where is the commemoration of their sacrifice?

Instead, we have the Easter Lilly, which raises money for the "National Graves Association" who have memorials to men who collaborated with Nazis, drew up plans for the invasion of Ireland and sheltered Nazi spies.

Odd.

beakerjoe

Is this thread still going? Really

Matt_Trakker

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actually, your main point seems to be taking as many pot shots at the British as you can.

You stated that many brave Irishmen fought against the Nazis in wwii, which they did, but where are the memorials? Where is the commemoration of their sacrifice?

Instead, we have the Easter Lilly, which raises money for the "National Graves Association" who have memorials to men who collaborated with Nazis, drew up plans for the invasion of Ireland and sheltered Nazi spies.

Odd.

You are confusing me with another poster.
I never said any of those things.

Fratton Fred

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

You are confusing me with another poster.
I never said any of those things.

Nope, simply misreading your post.

T runner

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yep, that's right, because after six years of total war, Britain was in the perfect position to go to war against Russia.

Then why keep LYING to Polish servicemen and the POlish people to keep fighting for the duration of those six years?....why not tell them as the war switched East and German defeat inevitable, that it is now NOT in their interest to weaken German positions? Why not invade Poland with an army...... instead of using terrorist tactics to despicably slaughter civilian men women and children in northern Germany? (terrorism against a civilain population, a constant theme in British military history).....and will monies from the poppy goe to people who ordered or carried out these atrocities?

The British could not guarantee Polish sovereignty but they insisted they could. The reason for the lie? To USE Polish soldiers for selfish British reasons.

And Britain could have done more. With an ally like the US? If Poland was a priority it would have been saved.

bumper234

T runner wrote: »

Then why keep LYING to Polish servicemen and the POlish people to keep fighting for the duration of those six years?....why not tell them as the war switched East and German defeat inevitable, that it is now NOT in their interest to weaken German positions? Why not invade Poland with an army...... instead of using terrorist tactics to despicably slaughter civilian men women and children in northern Germany? (terrorism against a civilain population, a constant theme in British military history).....and will monies from the poppy goe to people who ordered or carried out these atrocities?

The British could not guarantee Polish sovereignty but they insisted they could. The reason for the lie? To USE Polish soldiers for selfish British reasons.

And Britain could have done more. With an ally like the US? If Poland was a priority it would have been saved.

You mean like the constant fire bombing of London by the Luftwaffe against the civilian population?

bumper234

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

If Churchill had done what he had promised to do in the first place, everything would've been dandy.

Britain and France could no longer ignore the aggressors and had begun to mobilize for an impending war. They vowed to protect Poland if it had come under attack, and it did. Germany believed that Britain would not honor its agreement to defend Poland

I guess agreeing to protect Poland (as promised) and losing half a million people is not enough for you? You think Great Britain should have stood up to the Stalin and Russian army and fought on?

IrishProd

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actually, your main point seems to be taking as many pot shots at the British as you can.

You stated that many brave Irishmen fought against the Nazis in wwii, which they did, but where are the memorials? Where is the commemoration of their sacrifice?

Instead, we have the Easter Lilly, which raises money for the "National Graves Association" who have memorials to men who collaborated with Nazis, drew up plans for the invasion of Ireland and sheltered Nazi spies.

It was the same thing that happened in WW1 for the Rising when the Volunteers requested arms etc from the Germans, the fact that they were Nazis is irrelevant to them, they were looking for people to equip them.

It was Irish Republicans who died in the Spanish Civil War fighting against the Nazis and the fascists, but it was the Blueshirts that spawned Fine Gael that fought with the Nazis & fascists in the Spanish Civil War and were huge admirers of them. What do you say to that?

Fratton Fred

IrishProd wrote: »

It was the same thing that happened in WW1 for the Rising when the Volunteers requested arms etc from the Germans, the fact that they were Nazis is irrelevant to them, they were looking for people to equip them.

It was Irish Republicans who died in the Spanish Civil War fighting against the Nazis and the fascists, but it was the Blueshirts that spawned Fine Gael that fought with the Nazis & fascists in the Spanish Civil War and were huge admirers of them. What do you say to that?

Whoopy doo?

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

Then why keep LYING to Polish servicemen and the POlish people to keep fighting for the duration of those six years?....why not tell them as the war switched East and German defeat inevitable, that it is now NOT in their interest to weaken German positions? Why not invade Poland with an army...... instead of using terrorist tactics to despicably slaughter civilian men women and children in northern Germany? (terrorism against a civilain population, a constant theme in British military history).....and will monies from the poppy goe to people who ordered or carried out these atrocities?

The British could not guarantee Polish sovereignty but they insisted they could. The reason for the lie? To USE Polish soldiers for selfish British reasons.

And Britain could have done more. With an ally like the US? If Poland was a priority it would have been saved.

What selfish reasons?

IrishProd

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Whoopy doo?

You are a Fine Gael supporter from what I have seen (correct me if I am wrong).

You make a claim about Nazis, Fascists and Irish Republicans, I present to you facts that not only contradict what you say but also present facts that the people you support in this country were admirers, supporters and fought for the fascists and Nazis, then I ask for your opinion on it and all you can say is:

Whoopy doo?

My sir, you certainly embody the best of debate and intelligence within Irish unionism. :rolleyes:

HansHolzel

bumper234 wrote: »

That's the name of the nation. It's the same as some people typing the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland.

Here we have the difference between self-titled and eponymous.

Happyman42

bumper234 wrote: »

You mean like the constant fire bombing of London by the Luftwaffe against the civilian population?

The point surely is that by wearing the poppy you are implicitly supporting Britain's continued terrorising of civilians in their militaristic pursuits.
If you are truly against this you should be encouraging young men and women to leave the army, not glorifying what their dead comrades have been ordered to do, by taking part in the PR that is the poppy. Truly support and remember with respect dead canon fodder(because that is what they are, regrettably) by encouraging others not to participate in it.

Matt_Trakker

bumper234 wrote: »

Britain and France could no longer ignore the aggressors and had begun to mobilize for an impending war. They vowed to protect Poland if it had come under attack, and it did. Germany believed that Britain would not honor its agreement to defend Poland

I guess agreeing to protect Poland (as promised) and losing half a million people is not enough for you? You think Great Britain should have stood up to the Stalin and Russian army and fought on?

Ah yes, bolding your words again to make them move effective (that doesn't actually work).

You continue to not bother to learn about the things you pretend to be knowledgeable about.

You continue to demonstrate your lack of reading skills. I haven't mentioned the lead up to war, I've been discussing the broken promises of the British regarding Poland.

As I have said on multiple occasions over the previous few thread pages, yet you continue to ignore, the Poles were promised help from Churchill et al to help them create an independent, democratic country following the end of WWII. This was a promise that Churchill had no intention of keeping. Whether you accept that or not makes little difference, because the truth of the matter is that it's a fact.

bumper234

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

Ah yes, bolding your words again to make them move effective (that doesn't actually work).

You continue to not bother to learn about the things you pretend to be knowledgeable about.

You continue to demonstrate your lack of reading skills. I haven't mentioned the lead up to war, I've been discussing the broken promises of the British regarding Poland.

As I have said on multiple occasions over the previous few thread pages, yet you continue to ignore, the Poles were promised help from Churchill et al to help them create an independent, democratic country following the end of WWII. This was a promise that Churchill had no intention of keeping. Whether you accept that or not makes little difference, because the truth of the matter is that it's a fact.

At Yalta, the negotiations went very much in Stalin's favour, but this was because Roosevelt wanted Russian help in the Pacific, and was prepared to agree to almost anything as long as Stalin agreed to go to war with Japan.

Although the Conference appeared successful, however, behind the scenes, tension was growing, particularly about reparations, and about Poland.

After the conference, Churchill wrote to Roosevelt that ‘The Soviet Union has become a danger to the free world.’ And on their return home both he and Roosevelt were criticised for giving away too much to the Soviets:

Now when there are 3 people in negotiations and 2 of the 3 (America & Russia) agree to something then it's kinda hard for the 3rd person to change the terms with their lone voice right?

Accordingly, Stalin made it clear that some of his demands regarding Poland were not negotiable: the Russians were to gain territory from the eastern portion of Poland and Poland was to compensate for that by extending its Western borders, thereby forcing out millions of Germans. Reluctantly, Stalin promised free elections in Poland, notwithstanding the recently installed Communist puppet government. However, it soon became apparent that Stalin had no intentions of holding true to his promise of free elections. In fact, it was fifty years after the Yalta Conference that the Poles first had the opportunity to hold free elections.

However, Roosevelt was oblivious to Stalin's objectives because of Stalin's excellent 'poker face,' and he readily met Stalin's price, leaving the Yalta Conference exuberant because Stalin had agreed to enter the Pacific war against Japan.

But it was all Churchill's doing right :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

IrishProd wrote: »

You are a Fine Gael supporter from what I have seen (correct me if I am wrong).

You make a claim about Nazis, Fascists and Irish Republicans, I present to you facts that not only contradict what you say but also present facts that the people you support in this country were admirers, supporters and fought for the fascists and Nazis, then I ask for your opinion on it and all you can say is:

Whoopy doo?

My sir, you certainly embody the best of debate and intelligence within Irish unionism. :rolleyes:

You sir, haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

IrishProd

You really are clutching at straws to justify what Churchill and the British did to the Polish.

Keep on copying, pasting and pointlessly bolding words, it won't diminish the facts.

Dyr

It's probably worth noting that the soviets invaded Poland along with the Germans but the british didn't declare war on russia in response.


Friends like that....