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Will you wear a poppy 2013?

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    #1562
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And the provos were better were they? Recruiting and brain washing young boys from a working class background with little education and less opportunities. The IRA gave them a gun and told them they're fighting for Ireland, made them feel important, like they meant something, that they were contributing to a better future in a more equal Ireland. Feeding them these lies so they would go out and kill British Soldiers. Just sayin'.

    If that is what you think .......... you're entitled to your opinion.
    But do you not think that these fellows (IRA youth) could not see the social injustices all around them?
    In your line of thinking, any freedom fighter is incapable of forming a rational opinion.

    Have you been on the sauce this evening?


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    #1563
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    WilyCoyote wrote: »
    The ragbag of young thugs that join the British Army would not be cognizant of emotional intelligence never mind articulate it. Any academic education that they've gleaned is from the Army (in the form of brainwashing) and emotional education from Viz et al.

    Then they are sent abroad as pawns for a shower of hysterics in Whitehall. To compound the issue, they, their families and people of that ilk regard these modern day Black & Tans as heroes.

    They are killed, maimed physically or emotionally and then let loose into civilian life

    I agree with you to an extent that soldiers are coaxed into the the army (you just have to look at adverts to join the BA on UK TV) but I tend to start from a point where we're all human beings and not all that different so I can't create these huge differences between young people regardless of loyalties.

    Were there scumbags in the BA? Certainly. Was it the norm? I don't believe so. I'd imagine being sent to the north was depressing and I dare say most of them would rather have been at home with their families.

    I do agree with you on the pathology of the guys making the decisions. If you look at interviews with higher-ups in the BA at the time they sound like a bunch of colonial toffs drawn from the ruling classes who considered their job to be very much about reigning in the savages.


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    #1564
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    WilyCoyote wrote: »
    If that is what you think .......... you're entitled to your opinion.
    But do you not think that these fellows (IRA youth) could not see the social injustices all around them?
    In your line of thinking, any freedom fighter is incapable of forming a rational opinion.
    Sure they could, they were on the bottom of the pyramid, neck deep in ****e. Angry young men with no education and no oppertunities and the IRA took advantage of them by giving them a gun and telling them they can create a more equal society by killing for Ireland.
    Have you been on the sauce this evening?
    Nope but I often wonder about the terrorist sympathisers on this forum...


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    #1565
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And the provos were better were they? Recruiting and brain washing young boys from a working class background with little education and less opportunities. The IRA gave them a gun and told them they're fighting for Ireland, made them feel important, like they meant something, that they were contributing to a better future in a more equal Ireland. Feeding them these lies so they would go out and kill British Soldiers. Just sayin'.

    All IRA Volunteers were at least told to expect death and torture and not loose women in German discos. Very few got anything out of it- or expected anything out of it. You cannot compare an illegal volunteer army with the weight of the establishment and the media against to the British Army.

    As the poet said-

    "
    In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains, We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains, We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not The strange fierce face of the Frenchman who knew for what he fought,"


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    #1566
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »

    Nope but I often wonder about the terrorist sympathisers on this forum...

    What exactly is a terrorist sympathizer when it is at home?

    Hindu fascists in India called a Booker Prize winner the sophisticated face of terrorism and threatened to murder her for speaking out against the rapes and indiscriminate of killing tribal peoples in the Indian's state counter-insurgency in the red corridor.

    The six counties whether you like or not are part of Ireland and effect the rest of the country. Rather than talk about terrorism maybe you could give some positive suggestions?


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    #1567
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    All IRA Volunteers were at least told to expect death and torture and not loose women in German discos. Very few got anything out of it- or expected anything out of it. You cannot compare an illegal volunteer army with the weight of the establishment and the media against to the British Army.

    As the poet said-

    "
    In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains, We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains, We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not The strange fierce face of the Frenchman who knew for what he fought,"
    They knew nothing, they were generally desperate young boys with no education and no chance to go anywhere in life who were given a gun and told they were important. Brainwashed into believing every life they took and every bomb they placed took them one step closer to an equal Ireland. It was as it still is a load of rubbish.


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    #1568
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    You cannot compare an illegal volunteer army with the weight of the establishment and the media against to the British Army.

    Again, I mostly agree with what you say and I'm not renowned for my defence of the BA but in all fairness most of them were like 16/17 year olds when they joined.

    I don't know about you but I was a fucking idiot at that age. If you had to be 30 to join any army you wouldn't have an army. Young people are easily manipulated.


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    #1569
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    What exactly is a terrorist sympathizer when it is at home?
    Anyone who has any sort of tolerance for terrorists and their actions.
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The six counties whether you like or not are part of Ireland and effect the rest of the country. Rather than talk about terrorism maybe you could give some positive suggestions?
    When it comes to terrorism there is nothing positive to say. Progress can only be made after the complete and utter permanent cessation of all terrorist activity.


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    #1570
    policarp
    Registered Users Posts: 3,664 ✭✭✭policarp


    Every year.
    Same old thing.
    Trick or Treat?
    But No Puppies.
    Thank You.


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    #1571
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    Again, I mostly agree with what you say and I'm not renowned for my defence of the BA but in all fairness most of them were like 16/17 year olds when they joined.

    I don't know about you but I was a fucking idiot at that age. If you had to be 30 to join any army you wouldn't have an army. Young people are easily manipulated.

    No you misunderstand- Im not saying that they knew what they were getting into, Im saying exactly the opposite in most cases- what Im saying is that unlike your average Squaddie the average IRA volunteer knew full well what he was getting into.


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    #1572
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Anyone who has any sort of tolerance for terrorists and their actions.

    When it comes to terrorism there is nothing positive to say. Progress can only be made after the complete and utter permanent cessation of all terrorist activity.

    What exactly do you mean by any tolerance? Does trying to understand the reasons people engage in terrorism count as tolerance? Does trying to take away the conditions that breed terrorism count as tolerance? Does recognizing that people are doing what they do for a reason count as tolerance? Given the what the Provos let their weaponry be destroyed for its clear that they were not the psychopathic monsters of the propaganda.

    Progress towards what? Do you think that declaration would persuade a Palestinian or someone living in India's red corridor? Or someone in Papua New Guinea?


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    #1573
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They knew nothing, they were generally desperate young boys with no education and no chance to go anywhere in life who were given a gun and told they were important. Brainwashed into believing every life they took and every bomb they placed took them one step closer to an equal Ireland. It was as it still is a load of rubbish.

    At the beginning that was true up to a point- but the PIRA reorganized in the late 70s and became a lot tighter in terms of recruitment. There were different phases of the troubles.

    Whether you like or not they will be remembered by northern "Catholics" as bringing the McBride Principles and you can blame political Unionism and the British government for that. They did create a more equal "Northern Ireland" even if they failed at national liberation.


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    #1574
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean by any tolerance? Does trying to understand the reasons people engage in terrorism count as tolerance? Does trying to take away the conditions that breed terrorism count as tolerance? Does recognizing that people are doing what they do for a reason count as tolerance? Given the what the Provos let their weaponry be destroyed for its clear that they were not the psychopathic monsters of the propaganda.
    Tolerance means exactly what it's supposed to mean. Tolerance of terrorism as an alternative method of protest. For as long as this tolerance exists terrorism will continue. The only true method of dealing with terrorism is to refuse to negotiate with them until the permanently and unilaterally cease all terrorist activity.
    Progress towards what? Do you think that declaration would persuade a Palestinian or someone living in India's red corridor? Or someone in Papua New Guinea?
    Progress towards a stable peaceful society. I'm sure the various foreigners you mention would agree.


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    #1575
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Tolerance means exactly what it's supposed to mean. Tolerance of terrorism as an alternative method of protest. For as long as this tolerance exists terrorism will continue. The only true method of dealing with terrorism is to refuse to negotiate with them until the permanently and unilaterally cease all terrorist activity.


    Progress towards a stable peaceful society. I'm sure the various foreigners you mention would agree.

    Most people dont pick up the gun for the craic of it- whether you or I agree a lot of people felt that terrorism was their only channel- why was that? It was when people became in your view more "tolerant" of "terrorists" that we pretty rapidly got an IRA ceasefire.


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    #1576
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No you misunderstand- Im not saying that they knew what they were getting into, Im saying exactly the opposite in most cases- what Im saying is that unlike your average Squaddie the average IRA volunteer knew full well what he was getting into.

    Well yeah, but does that not (holy **** am I defending BA soldiers? :eek:) make BA squaddies more victims of the conflict than people in the IRA?

    What you're essentially saying is that young people who joined the IRA had an understanding of what they were getting into but BA privates didn't?


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    #1577
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    At the beginning that was true up to a point- but the PIRA reorganized in the late 70s and became a lot tighter in terms of recruitment. There were different phases of the troubles.
    Oh? Their members were not drawn from the under educated lower classes? That's a new one on me.
    Whether you like or not they will be remembered by northern "Catholics" as bringing the McBride Principles and you can blame political Unionism and the British government for that. They did create a more equal "Northern Ireland" even if they failed at national liberation.
    What nonsense, the IRA did none of these things. The only "achievements" I attribute to the IRA are the starting of the troubles, the destruction of the government of Northern Ireland which led to direct rule, the prolonging of the conflict by forcing the British Army to under take peace keeping missions in Northern Ireland and the radicalisation of otherwise peaceful working class nationalists and unionists.


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    #1578
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Most people dont pick up the gun for the craic of it- whether you or I agree a lot of people felt that terrorism was their only channel- why was that? It was when people became in your view more "tolerant" of "terrorists" that we pretty rapidly got an IRA ceasefire.
    The cease fire was coming anyway, the IRA couldn't have maintained their campaign indefinitely. For as long as terrorist organisations exist they must be met with a wall of silence let them know their actions no matter how inhumane and gruesome will have no affect on the government of the state.


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    #1579
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    What nonsense, the IRA did none of these things. The only "achievements" I attribute to the IRA are the starting of the troubles, the destruction of the government of Northern Ireland which led to direct rule, the prolonging of the conflict by forcing the British Army to under take peace keeping missions in Northern Ireland and the radicalisation of otherwise peaceful working class nationalists and unionists.

    The McBride principles only came in with the GFA. You might not credit the Provos with that but that doesnt matter- enough people do which is why you have Unicorns voting for Sinn Fein. The idea of otherwise peaceful nationalists and unionists is frankly silly considering the violence that led up to their campaign as well as the violence of the 30s and 50s.


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    #1580
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The cease fire was coming anyway, the IRA couldn't have maintained their campaign indefinitely. For as long as terrorist organisations exist they must be met with a wall of silence let them know their actions no matter how inhumane and gruesome will have no affect on the government of the state.

    So Loyld George should never have engaged with Michael Collins or is that different?


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    #1581
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    The McBride principles only came in with the GFA. You might not credit the Provos with that but that doesnt matter- enough people do which is why you have Unicorns voting for Sinn Fein. The idea of otherwise peaceful nationalists and unionists is frankly silly considering the violence that led up to their campaign as well as the violence of the 30s and 50s.
    You don't agree the troubles had a radicalising affect on otherwise peaceful people?


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    #1582
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    So Loyld George should never have engaged with Michael Collins or is that different?
    Not true. If I were Loyld George I would have met with Collins and offered him the same terms but the IRA would have had to decommission all their weapons and issue a permanent cessation of all hostilities first.


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    #1583
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You don't agree the troubles had a radicalising affect on otherwise peaceful people?

    No I dont. Infact the Unionist Party told the British government not to allow free access to higher level education in Northern Ireland because it would cause mayhem. Of course they were right, but there were options out of the mayhem....


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    #1584
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No I dont. Infact the Unionist Party told the British government not to allow free access to higher level education in Northern Ireland because it would cause mayhem. Of course they were right, but there were options out of the mayhem....
    And if that's not radicalisation...


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    #1585
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Hey Soulandform please don't waste your time getting bogged down with someone so perversely biased it's either fanaticism or wilful trolling.


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    #1586
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    You know Charlie where I come from it's not very nice to call people trolls. There are many names I could give to terrorist sympathisers but I hold back in the name of productive conversation.


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    #1587
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And if that's not radicalisation...

    The TUV would love you.


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    #1588
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You know Charlie where I come from it's not very nice to call people trolls. There are many names I could give to terrorist sympathisers but I hold back in the name of productive conversation.

    You're outside the spectrum of people I'm interested in discussing these matters with. I've told you this before yet you still try to get my attention.


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    #1589
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    I don't believe I was discussing them with you.


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    #1590
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    What you're essentially saying is that young people who joined the IRA had an understanding of what they were getting into but BA privates didn't?

    I'd like you to address this Soulandform.


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    #1591
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Carlos Roca wrote: »
    I'd like you to address this Soulandform.

    Not in the early to mid 70s maybe- afterwards yes.


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