Will you wear a poppy 2013?

SoulandForm

katydid wrote: »

The "military stuff", as you call it, are memorials to people who have died in wars. Their relatives wanted to commemorate them, and they put up the memorials. In the church I attend, there is a memorial to five brothers who died in the first world war - do you want to rip that plaque off the wall?

I have no idea what you are talking about when you write of an "Anglo Irish" social club. You need to get to know what the CofI is really like, and forget your out of date stereotype.

Yes I would want to if I still cared. A Church exists for the worship of God and not the glorification of an earthly kingdom. And if its just a matter of memorials why are they nearly all to soldiers?

The only actual believers I have come across in the C of I have either been Africans or from the north.

SoulandForm

timthumbni wrote: »

Rotten little statelet. Lol that's the 2 nd time I've heard that on here this week. Both by people I can safely assume aren't from Northern Ireland btw. Very strange. Do you even like your own country by any chance? I love mine btw. Northern Ireland is great. Lol

I hope you are being sarcastic there; Northern Ireland is not great (though it has the potential to be)- its is the crazed, frothing out of the mouth uncle locked up in the attic of these Isles.

HansHolzel

timthumbni wrote: »

Northern Ireland is great. Lol

Quite

indioblack

Nodin wrote: »

....yet the Nazi regime was worse, in that it was genocidal in the most severe reading of the term. In some regards yes, the Russians and Germans did what the British did, except mostly in Europe as opposed to Africa and elsewhere, but the Nazis were certainly the worst of the bunch. Nice uniforms, fair enough, but an evil regime that had to be stopped.

Agreed. Nice uniforms, designed by a Frenchman, so I believe! What was the difference between British imperialism and the Third Reich? The British had the ability to change. This might have to be imposed on them by main force, but they could be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the negotiating table.
Within their system, at home and overseas, the seeds of the end of empire could, and did, germinate.
The Third Reich only ceased to function when it was completely overrun by the Allies.

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I would want to if I still cared. A Church exists for the worship of God and not the glorification of an earthly kingdom. And if its just a matter of memorials why are they nearly all to soldiers?

The only actual believers I have come across in the C of I have either been Africans or from the north.

I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but that comes across as a very bigoted remark.

Snickers Man

This discussion, and indeed all discussions on this topic on this forum over the years (actually just the same one repeated at nauseum) is the most fitting commemoration of all the people from this island who fought and/or died in the First World War.

It is fitting because it is bitterly divisive, shows evidence of numerous points of view many of them diametrically opposed to others in the same discussion and many expressed with a degree of vehemence and bitterness bordering on the violent.

Which is pretty much the way the country viewed it back in 1914. Ulster Loyalists, getting ready to face down with force of arms their own government's attempt to enact its own constitutionally crafted laws, enlisted en masse and with little hesitation.

Irish Nationalists, getting ready to march against their Unionist cohabitants, were far less single minded: some conceding that we were part of the Empire and that was a good thing and all we wanted was a little local autonomy so we'll join up; others thinking that Ireland's cause was more important than the Empire's and so we'll stay put thanks, the Socialist Citizen's Army deciding that it would serve neither King nor Kaieer but Ireland; the IRB calculating that "England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity".

The Nationalist and Unionist people (if we can simplify the whole crisis down to two main blocks) were getting ready to tear each other's throats out and would each show themselves to be perfectly capable of doing so in the years following the war and for long afterwards.

And there are some, not all I hasten to add, who think that considering the service of so many Irish people in the same army can be "conciliatory" and evidence that we could "Stand shoulder to shoulder against the common enemy"

Balderdash!!! If we are to remember together (the definition of "commemorate") those that went before then how much more consistent, honest and appropriate it is to have a good stand up venomous barney than to piously put a paper poppy on one's tit and pretend we were all singing off the same hymn sheet back then.

We bloody were not. And we're not now, and we shouldn't even try to. It amounts to a falsification of history.

Well done Boards.IE. Your annual facilitating of our commemoration of our ancestors' role in World War One is by far the most fitting around.

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but that comes across as a very bigoted remark.

Yes I can see why you say that; why though does the C of I continue to loose its good members to the Presbyterians, the Methodists and various "Evangelical" groups (this is not happening for anything to do with secular politics- the complaint about the military symbolism is mine and mine only in terms of Irish people)? Why given all the nonsense that has gone on in the RCC in Ireland has it not grown by leaps and bounds? The purpose of the Church of Ireland should be offer people a genuine Via Media between Roman Catholicism and a Protestantism that throw the baby out with the bath water.

I didnt say ALL of it was an "Anglo-Irish" social club-I said that there is a element of that there. How else do you explain posts like the below? I communicated for two years in a Church of England parish and people there knew that I believed the monarchy should be abolished- people disagreed with that but NO ONE saw it as a religious issue. Yet from the post below you can see that some in the C of I look at the Queen of England the way RCs look at the Pope... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72213027&postcount=9

Fratton Fred

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I can see why you say that; why though does the C of I continue to loose its good members to the Presbyterians, the Methodists and various "Evangelical" groups (this is not happening for anything to do with secular politics- the complaint about the military symbolism is mine and mine only in terms of Irish people)? Why given all the nonsense that has gone on in the RCC in Ireland has it not grown by leaps and bounds? The purpose of the Church of Ireland should be offer people a genuine Via Media between Roman Catholicism and a Protestantism that throw the baby out with the bath water.

I didnt say ALL of it was an "Anglo-Irish" social club-I said that there is a element of that there. How else do you explain posts like the below? I communicated for two years in a Church of England parish and people there knew that I believed the monarchy should be abolished- people disagreed with that but NO ONE saw it as a religious issue. Yet from the post below you can see that some in the C of I look at the Queen of England the way RCs look at the Pope... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72213027&postcount=9

I can only speak of my local parish and although our numbers have dropped over the years, I would say no more than in general with other churches.

Of the 70 to 80 people who attend on a Sunday, about a third are Catholics who simply prefer the CofI service. It is a very ecumenical parish and I know our recently retired rector was very much a republican in his view on the monarchy.

The attached CofI school has, for the first time, had to give priority to Anglicans due to the number of applications from Catholic families to send their children there. Although that isn't about what the school is, more about what it isn't.

Donkey Oaty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of the 70 to 80 people who attend on a Sunday, about a third are Catholics who simply prefer the CofI service.

That's interesting. Anyone know if it is it similar in other CofI churches around the country?

Fratton Fred

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

That's interesting. Anyone know if it is it similar in other CofI churches around the country?

From what I've heard, most of our choir are Catholics who just like a good sing song!

LordSutch

We have a smattering of RCs among our congregation, some polish families within that group too.

Benny_Cake

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

That's interesting. Anyone know if it is it similar in other CofI churches around the country?

The most recent census indicated a rise in membership of the Church of Ireland. Whether that translates to an increase in attendance at church services is an entirely different question of course.

Judgement Day

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I can see why you say that; why though does the C of I continue to loose its good members to the Presbyterians, the Methodists and various "Evangelical" groups (this is not happening for anything to do with secular politics- the complaint about the military symbolism is mine and mine only in terms of Irish people)? Why given all the nonsense that has gone on in the RCC in Ireland has it not grown by leaps and bounds? The purpose of the Church of Ireland should be offer people a genuine Via Media between Roman Catholicism and a Protestantism that throw the baby out with the bath water.

I didnt say ALL of it was an "Anglo-Irish" social club-I said that there is a element of that there. How else do you explain posts like the below? I communicated for two years in a Church of England parish and people there knew that I believed the monarchy should be abolished- people disagreed with that but NO ONE saw it as a religious issue. Yet from the post below you can see that some in the C of I look at the Queen of England the way RCs look at the Pope... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72213027&postcount=9

I thought that you were talking about me but it's Lord Sutch. It could just as easily been me as I'm an unashamed monarchist but that's for another thread.

LordSutch

Not sure he's talking about me either?

The "Anglo-Irish" social club" is aimed at the C of I in general I think.

Karl Stein

Irish admirers of the German British Monarchy.

How thoroughly bizarre.

katydid

SoulandForm wrote: »

The ANC used no warning bombs on commerical/civilian targets. It put tires soaked in petrol around peoples knecks and than set them alight in public. They did at times- and many more times than the Provos- set out to terrorize civilian populations. Now yes we can say that over all their armed struggle was very justified and the only real road open to them; but let us not romanticize their armed campaign.

The idea that some people have of the Provisionals being uniquely evil is also very strange.

Renegade members of the ANC did those things. That was not their modus operandi.

katydid

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I would want to if I still cared. A Church exists for the worship of God and not the glorification of an earthly kingdom. And if its just a matter of memorials why are they nearly all to soldiers?

The only actual believers I have come across in the C of I have either been Africans or from the north.

A church is a place where people come to worship and to commune with God. Part of that is remembering those that have passed on.

And they are not nearly all to soldiers. You need to have a good look around a church and see who they are to.

Do you realise how stupid that final sentence makes you look? How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

katydid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but that comes across as a very bigoted remark.

Oh, I'm sure he meant it..

SoulandForm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can only speak of my local parish and although our numbers have dropped over the years, I would say no more than in general with other churches.

You have a valid point and I was probably ranting to much. And it is strange Irish RCs can sing very well usually but when they come to Church that talent seems to fail them . Also you have to remember the fact that the RCC basically committed suicide in Ireland.

The thing is though that Evangelical Churches have grown seriously while the C of I hasnt but this is for another forum.

SoulandForm

katydid wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure he meant it..

She not he.

SoulandForm

katydid wrote: »

Renegade members of the ANC did those things. That was not their modus operandi.

No the actual ANC- they admitted such actions rather than let the PAC take the credit. The ANC were incredibly brutal whether you like it or not. A lot of what they did I consider wrong- do I consider armed struggle against Aparteid wrong? No- but Im not going to gloss over the nasty parts.

When it comes to the Provos things are more complex- but they were not the Red Army Faction or David Copeland.

Nodin

katydid wrote: »

Renegade members of the ANC did those things. That was not their modus operandi.

....with an evil regime like apartheid, all options must be open. If it makes you more comfortable to sanitise the past, that's your problem, to be blunt.

SoulandForm

Nodin wrote: »

....with an evil regime like apartheid, all options must be open. If it makes you more comfortable to sanitise the past, that's your problem, to be blunt.

I disagree with that statement; but turning the ANC into angels and the PIRA into demons is unhistorical at the very, very, very best.

Katy do you know close the ANC and the Provos were?

SoulandForm

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ed-curran/steely-nelson-mandela-was-against-ira-decommissioning-29384673.html

Just for the record.

HansHolzel

Carlos Roca wrote: »

Irish admirers of the German British Monarchy.

How thoroughly bizarre.

sadder than sad

katydid

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes I can see why you say that; why though does the C of I continue to loose its good members to the Presbyterians, the Methodists and various "Evangelical" groups (this is not happening for anything to do with secular politics- the complaint about the military symbolism is mine and mine only in terms of Irish people)? Why given all the nonsense that has gone on in the RCC in Ireland has it not grown by leaps and bounds? The purpose of the Church of Ireland should be offer people a genuine Via Media between Roman Catholicism and a Protestantism that throw the baby out with the bath water.

I didnt say ALL of it was an "Anglo-Irish" social club-I said that there is a element of that there. How else do you explain posts like the below? I communicated for two years in a Church of England parish and people there knew that I believed the monarchy should be abolished- people disagreed with that but NO ONE saw it as a religious issue. Yet from the post below you can see that some in the C of I look at the Queen of England the way RCs look at the Pope... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72213027&postcount=9

There are nutcases everywhere. I'd hardly judge an entire religion by one nutter.

katydid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can only speak of my local parish and although our numbers have dropped over the years, I would say no more than in general with other churches.

Of the 70 to 80 people who attend on a Sunday, about a third are Catholics who simply prefer the CofI service. It is a very ecumenical parish and I know our recently retired rector was very much a republican in his view on the monarchy.

The attached CofI school has, for the first time, had to give priority to Anglicans due to the number of applications from Catholic families to send their children there. Although that isn't about what the school is, more about what it isn't.

Gosh, a third is quite high. We have about the same numbers on a Sunday, but I would guess at a handful of people who are RC's. One or two would be spouses of CofI members, and a few people testing the water. On the other hand, I would say about a quarter of the congregation are former RC's who have made the decision to move over. Everyone goes to communion...

HansHolzel

Long ago, South African Minister for Justice J. Vorster expressed his envy of something up North, saying his government would be willing to exchange all the legislation of the apartheid regime’s Coercion Act (1963) for one clause - the right to imprison without charge or trial - of the Northern Ireland Special Powers Act.

SoulandForm

katydid wrote: »

There are nutcases everywhere. I'd hardly judge an entire religion by one nutter.

Im hardly going to judge Richard Hooker, Lancelot Andrewes, and Jeremy Taylor on one nutter- where have I attacked classical Anglicanism? Anglicanism also isnt a seperate religion its an expression of Christianity. Its not a different religion to either Roman Catholicism or Presbyterianism.

SoulandForm

HansHolzel wrote: »

Long ago, South African Minister for Justice J. Vorster expressed his envy of something up North, saying his government would be willing to exchange all the legislation of the apartheid regime’s Coercion Act (1963) for one clause - the right to imprison without charge or trial - of the Northern Ireland Special Powers Act.

Our wee country, the greatest place on earth, the only problem was those nasty Provos who are responsible for even the colds we catch.