Property websites manipulating the housing market.

D3PO

The OP is reminding me of Lima's more evil twin :D:D:pac::pac:

D3PO

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Hardly communist, .

How is claiming that profit should not be made on a house not communist .....

Need4House

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Can you quantify "very tiny minority"?

Is it not roughly speaking 3.5 - 4 times your salary for a mortgage? So somebody on €50k a year could afford the situation you have described falls into a very tine minority. What about a couple who are both on €50k each? Even a couple on €25k each!

Are you saying that theres not a lot of people in Dublin earning > €25k a year?

It hardly matters what your earning..the banks are not lending...and when they do they are not lending enough. Before you and other argue with me, remember you have a computer at your disposal and the entire internet to look everything up..before you open your mouth in response.

most..if not all that money that flooded in to Ireland during the boom was from EU handouts and backhanders..it was not generated by a new industrial revolution that occured in Ireland or did I miss that one? Excatly, so you are living in the past if you think we have seen anywhere close to the bottom of the market yet.

Barely Hedged

Need4House wrote: »

Because property...should never have been treated as something to make a profit out of..It should always have been a place to LIVE IN. I could argue why should a landlord make a wad of cash simply for owning a house??? the one Im renting hasn't had any maintenance done on it..the very rare time I mention any issue to the landlord, they blow it off and do nothing to fix it..which is A typical of landlords, as Ive had many over the years.

Full recover in 5-8 years hahahahaha. Really well we will see who the sucker is in 8 years. the only honest thing I heard after the bank bail out, was that it would cripple Ireland FOR GENERATIONS...but now its only 8 years max? the figures change all the time..in 8 years it will be another 5-8 years...This is the basic flawed thinking here. There is no recovery coming, thats not me being a doom and gloom merchant,. its just simple maths.
You evidently have no concept of how much money went down the swanny here.

How would a market that you have described above even function. What about people who move to Dublin for a year to work and only want to rent? Theyd have to get a 20 year mortgage to live somewhere. How long would that take for them to get and so on. Theres so many questions to the market situation you have suggested in my head, that i dont know where to start. Please think about what you have suggested for a minute where there are no landlords in existence.

Well it is very subjective point i raised and you are entitled to state that you think it will be longer. I however think inflation will be substantial enough over the coming years, inflating away a good portion of the the debt. Thats just for starters. We'll agree to disagree on that point

josip

Need4House wrote: »

... so you are living in the past if you think we have seen anywhere close to the bottom of the market yet.

Are you saying that this is a dead cat bounce?

Need4House

josip wrote: »

"the kid"? Is it your kid? If it is, then when don't you say "my kid"?
If it's not your kid, then it's possible that some overly vigilant neighbour might report you to the gardai.



So this is your level..enough said.

Frank Lee Midere

D3PO wrote: »

How is claiming that profit should not be made on a house not communist .....

I dunno, maybe because it isn't? You know how I pointed out in my last simple posts that non-communist European societies control housing? That. Read that. Again.

Frank Lee Midere

josip wrote: »

Are you saying that this is a dead cat bounce?

If the cash buyers dry up :-)

Need4House

D3PO wrote: »

I think your communist ideals would be much better suited to North Korea or Cuba. Have you ever though of moving ?

Shame on all these commercial endeavors who look to make profit.

Cuba sound alright to me...fine looking women and sunshine and one of the best health care systems in the world..for some its not so easy to upsticks though.

wirelessdude01

Need4House wrote: »

Cuba sound alright to me...fine looking women and sunshine and one of the best health care systems in the world..for some its not so easy to upsticks though.

Having been in Cuba during the summer can say most of the houses are in woeful condition unless you work in the black economy.

Barely Hedged

Need4House wrote: »

It hardly matters what your earning..the banks are not lending...and when they do they are not lending enough. Before you and other argue with me, remember you have a computer at your disposal and the entire internet to look everything up..before you open your mouth in response.

most..if not all that money that flooded in to Ireland during the boom was from EU handouts and backhanders..it was not generated by a new industrial revolution that occured in Ireland or did I miss that one? Excatly, so you are living in the past if you think we have seen anywhere close to the bottom of the market yet.

Im confused. So you dont have a computer in front of you or what point are you raising? Ok, the banks arent lending on the scale they were in 05-07 but we all know why that is. To say theyre not lending to people who have permanent job and a good deposit - well id like to see your statistics on that. I applied for a mortgage in December last year and it didnt work out. The processing time at head office on my application form was four days then. I applied again last week and i was told it was > 3 weeks because of the large volume of applications they have been receiving in the recent months. Thats just my anecdotal experience.

Im also well aware of where the cash came from. Export numbers dropped off and wages shot up. Both have reversed those trends. Unemployment is coming down, whether it be by immigration or new jobs. Re-financing costs for government debt are stable and dropping slightly. I'd like your take on what economic indicators you think will signal the bottom and how much you expect to pay for your ideal house in South Co Dub when it hits the bottom?

D3PO

Need4House wrote: »

It hardly matters what your earning..the banks are not lending...and when they do they are not lending enough. .

Somebody should inform Killian (Killers1) and tell him to close up his mortgage broker business, he's hasn't a hope of earning a crust sure banks aren't lending the poor fella :rolleyes:

Barely Hedged

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

If the cash buyers dry up :-)

Cash buyers are buying in Dublin 2 and Dublin 1 etc. City centre locations where BTL investors are being forced to sell or Nama is offloading small, medium and large apartment lots to funds. The transaction numbers on apartments in Dublin 2 have doubled this year.

People buying in South Co Dub are buying with mortgages as its most likely their family home for long term. Cant see a shortage of them

Need4House

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

If the cash buyers dry up :-)

Thanks for your contribution to the thread Frank..How can only one or two other people on this thread have a functioning brain? If this is an indication of the thinking in Ireland then there is no redemption for this country.

I seriously think sellers here think that Chinese cash buyers, will come and buy everything up...there has been talk about that, but will the Irish be happy when this is little China? And all the natives have been forced off the reservation?
Anyhow the truth is the Chinese are only interested in investing in places that will give them a return...like Brazil and Africa. Places with natural resources to exploit etc..

Like I said a basic grasp of economics is lacking for most people here. Expensive property prices, only arise through supply and demand, that's true, but demand only comes about when people have a good reason to live in a property hot spot.

So either you have a beautiful beach in front of you with all year round sunshine and turquoise waters...or you have a booming economy that attracts people to live in a hot spot.

there is no booming economy in Dublin, yes people will always want to live in a capital city because your going to get more work in a capital than the rest of the country even in a downturn...but there isn't that much going on in Dub these days.

The houses prices are a mismatch with the rest of the economy..as per usual...Like I said basic economics is lacking.

for anyone who thinks people should have to have 25+ year mortgages shows how ignorant most people are. the only reason people have such lengthy mortgages is because the houses do not match the incomes. And this has been allowed to happen through greed.

Ray Palmer

Need4House wrote: »

so you are living in the past if you think we have seen anywhere close to the bottom of the market yet.

Then you have nothing to moan about because you will be able to buy a house cheaper when you think the market has reached the bottom. You can laugh at all the people and brag how smart you are.

Of course people are realising that getting the house at a cheaper price doesn't mean it costs less than somebody who bough at a higher price.

Your idea of property should not allow people to profit from it is quite funny.
It relies on having absolutely no knowledge of the history of the other countries you think are much better because they have rent control.
At some point you might notice you don't dictate how the economy works.

Need4House

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Im confused. So you dont have a computer in front of you or what point are you raising? Ok, the banks arent lending on the scale they were in 05-07 but we all know why that is. To say theyre not lending to people who have permanent job and a good deposit - well id like to see your statistics on that. I applied for a mortgage in December last year and it didnt work out. The processing time at head office on my application form was four days then. I applied again last week and i was told it was > 3 weeks because of the large volume of applications they have been receiving in the recent months. Thats just my anecdotal experience.

Im also well aware of where the cash came from. Export numbers dropped off and wages shot up. Both have reversed those trends. Unemployment is coming down, whether it be by immigration or new jobs. Re-financing costs for government debt are stable and dropping slightly. I'd like your take on what economic indicators you think will signal the bottom and how much you expect to pay for your ideal house in South Co Dub when it hits the bottom?

If unemployment is coming down..as you state..there can be only two reasons..immigration or new jobs..well we already know tons of people are immigrating STILL. Mostly young, many of which are skilled workers. And I see no fantastic new industries popping up in Ireland or anywhere else that could possibly be the cause of job creation. Do you? So again its no brain surgery to figure out that the only reason there is a drop in unemployment is due to immigration and nothing good..of course the government and media usually try to spin this and make it appear jobs are being generated out of thin air, when any fool can see that's not possible.

If people think im way off...take this on board..I lived up north and I had another idiot landlord..back in 2009..he boasted how his house was worth over 350K, the one I was renting..i told him to his face he was living in lala land. the house was on an estate, an established one to be fair, but in a town where the factories closed 20 years previously...the only economy there is tourism for a couple of months a year...I siad his house was worth no more than 50G...and guess what...thats what he ended up putting it on the market for not more than two years later and it probably didn't even sell then...because nobody "needs" to live where there are no jobs..or where the jobs dont match the house prices or rental prices.


Like i said economic indicators are easy to see..either its a booming economy or its not...and its not...Not just that but people are leaving in droves and not just any people, the very people you want to retain if you hope to generate enterprise. there is no way we have seen the bottom yet...No way. id say the coming year, if not the first 6 moths of it, will spell disaster all over again.

the fact people are justifying rental price gouging spells disaster. In the nest 6 months this will be a real buyers market..the only thing will be nobody in their right mind will want to buy then as the economy really will be dead.

D3PO

Need4House wrote: »

If unemployment is coming down..as you state..there can be only two reasons..immigration or new jobs..well we already know tons of people are immigrating STILL. Mostly young, many of which are skilled workers. And I see no fantastic new industries popping up in Ireland or anywhere else that could possibly be the cause of job creation. Do you? .

Start reading the newspapers.

Numbers on welfare are down (yes some of this is down to emigration) but if you actually were well read you would understand that 20k more people are paying income tax.

That for you as you clearly wont understand means that there are more people in work and how could more people be in work ...... yes that's right because there are more jobs than there were a year ago.

Barely Hedged

Need4House wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution to the thread Frank..How can only one or two other people on this thread have a functioning brain? If this is an indication of the thinking in Ireland then there is no redemption for this country.

I seriously think sellers here think that Chinese cash buyers, will come and buy everything up...there has been talk about that, but will the Irish be happy when this is little China? And all the natives have been forced off the reservation?
Anyhow the truth is the Chinese are only interested in investing in places that will give them a return...like Brazil and Africa. Places with natural resources to exploit etc..

Like I said a basic grasp of economics is lacking for most people here. Expensive property prices, only arise through supply and demand, that's true, but demand only comes about when people have a good reason to live in a property hot spot.

So either you have a beautiful beach in front of you with all year round sunshine and turquoise waters...or you have a booming economy that attracts people to live in a hot spot.

there is no booming economy in Dublin, yes people will always want to live in a capital city because your going to get more work in a capital than the rest of the country even in a downturn...but there isn't that much going on in Dub these days.

The houses prices are a mismatch with the rest of the economy..as per usual...Like I said basic economics is lacking.

for anyone who thinks people should have to have 25+ year mortgages shows how ignorant most people are. the only reason people have such lengthy mortgages is because the houses do not match the incomes. And this has been allowed to happen through greed.

"Expensive property prices, only arise through supply and demand". There has been no increasing demand for the past 5 and hence no supply. Properties have been bought up slowly since then and now demand increases and supply is hindered/restricted by bankrupt developers unable to build, the empty properties having been bought at a slow pace over the past 5 years and the fact that houses cannot be built overnight. It would take one or two years to add to the current housing stock in this case. So who's grasp of economics is lacking in this case?

20 and 25 year mortgages have been around for the past 40 and 50 years in any of the successful economies.

Prices wont shoot up 50% or 60% over the next 5-8 years but they'll increase steadily in line with an improving economy and a slowly increasing ECB base rate. If you think that prices are going to drop significantly again in South Co Dub, im afraid your mistaken. If you think theyre going to fall so that less than 20 year mortgages are achievable for the majority of people, you are again mistake.

I could sympathise initially with your frustration over estate agents and places you would like to live becoming unaffordable but comments such as landlords dont deserve to make a profit, free enterprise shouldnt exist in the property market and a 20 year mortgage is greedy hints at a detachment from the reality of these situations and subsequently a detachment from the market you find yourself so willing to buy in. My best advice would be to get out and go to viewings, offer on places and apply for a mortgage and see how much the bank is willing to give you. These extreme left wing fantasies are not getting you anywhere

ted1

Lots of inaccuracies here let's clean 2 up.

1.) banks are lending, I know plenty of people like myself who bought in the last 18 months , others either are sake agreed or have mortgage approval

2.) the market is based on cash buyers. Not in South Dublin. Its families/ couples in late 20s and 30s. With mortgages some of who have been renting and some where 1 partner had an apartment and the other doesn't.

When was the last time you saw a new development? In Shankill 2 sites recently became available, both these were snapped up and now there are several family homes being built on them, because the market is there.

Need4House

D3PO wrote: »

Start reading the newspapers.

Numbers on welfare are down (yes some of this is down to emigration) but if you actually were well read you would understand that 20k more people are paying income tax.

That for you as you clearly wont understand means that there are more people in work and how could more people be in work ...... yes that's right because there are more jobs than there were a year ago.

Welfare numbers are only down due to people being cut off or emigrating... Your really good at maths evidently. 20k more income tax payers is a drop in the bucket, even for a country as small as Ireland, I mean you might be making a point if is was 10x that number but 20k is a joke..especially if you compare that grand figure to the many 10's of thousands who have emigrated. bearing in mind many have unofficially emigrated for years too, in fact many times more the amount of people who can be bothered filling in the paper work and cutting through all that red tape. its a lot easier to just take off on holiday and not come back, or didn't you know the worlds full of undocumented Irish? But you can bandy your 20k new tax payers figure around all day and give us a good laugh.

wirelessdude01

Need4House wrote: »

Anyhow the truth is the Chinese are only interested in investing in places that will give them a return...like Brazil and Africa. Places with natural resources to exploit etc..

Funny enough I read that a lot of the properties at the rent Alsop auction were sold to Chinese people.

pwurple

Need4House wrote: »

20k more income tax payers is a drop in the bucket, even for a country as small as Ireland, I mean you might be making a point if is was 10x that number but 20k is a joke..

20,000 more income tax payers... we have an employable population of about 1,000,000 (omitting children, the elderly etc). 20,000 is a 2% increase. Especially as some of those 20,000 will be possibly supporting a spouse and children as well.

A lot better than nothing I'd say.

Need4House

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Funny enough I read that a lot of the properties at the rent Alsop auction were sold to Chinese people.

Yes the Chinese were buying..but they aint going to save the market...especially once they see it drop continually. Also this outlines my point the money isnt here in Ireland anyway, you would need foreign buyers like the Chinese to prop this market up...but they are not going to come in droves to buy homes here unless they can see a huge profit in it..and the Chinese already have all that American debt they cant offload..so i don't think they are going to make the same mistakes twice. the Chinese have their own economic troubles brewing anyhow. And Alsop auctions are the biggest load of crap going, no NAMA bargains there.

D3PO

Need4House wrote: »

Welfare numbers are only down due to people being cut off or emigrating... Your really good at maths evidently. 20k more income tax payers is a drop in the bucket, .

I never said it was a large number. You said jobs haven't been created. The FACT is there was a net increase in the number of jobs in the last year.

That's irrefutable.

So that's another one of your nonsense comments rubbished.

Need4House

pwurple wrote: »

20,000 more income tax payers... we have an employable population of about 1,000,000 (omitting children, the elderly etc). 20,000 is a 2% increase. Especially as some of those 20,000 will be possibly supporting a spouse and children as well.

A lot better than nothing I'd say.

2% is a joke...and is it even an increase if more people have left..why not go and pull the figures on official and unofficial immigration and see what percentage you get.

wirelessdude01

Need4House, lets get to the root of this. What exactly do YOU want to happen so that this rant can end?

Need4House

D3PO wrote: »

I never said it was a large number. You said jobs haven't been created. The FACT is there was a net increase in the number of jobs in the last year.

That's irrefutable.

So that's another one of your nonsense comments rubbished.

OK smart mouth..where have the jobs been created?

Let me guess you cant say. They are simply existing vacancies being refilled due to people how have cleared off...that isn't job creation.

Barely Hedged

Need4House wrote: »

If unemployment is coming down..as you state..there can be only two reasons..immigration or new jobs..well we already know tons of people are immigrating STILL. Mostly young, many of which are skilled workers. And I see no fantastic new industries popping up in Ireland or anywhere else that could possibly be the cause of job creation. Do you? So again its no brain surgery to figure out that the only reason there is a drop in unemployment is due to immigration and nothing good..of course the government and media usually try to spin this and make it appear jobs are being generated out of thin air, when any fool can see that's not possible.

If people think im way off...take this on board..I lived up north and I had another idiot landlord..back in 2009..he boasted how his house was worth over 350K, the one I was renting..i told him to his face he was living in lala land. the house was on an estate, an established one to be fair, but in a town where the factories closed 20 years previously...the only economy there is tourism for a couple of months a year...I siad his house was worth no more than 50G...and guess what...thats what he ended up putting it on the market for not more than two years later and it probably didn't even sell then...because nobody "needs" to live where there are no jobs..or where the jobs dont match the house prices or rental prices.


Like i said economic indicators are easy to see..either its a booming economy or its not...and its not...Not just that but people are leaving in droves and not just any people, the very people you want to retain if you hope to generate enterprise. there is no way we have seen the bottom yet...No way. id say the coming year, if not the first 6 moths of it, will spell disaster all over again.

the fact people are justifying rental price gouging spells disaster. In the nest 6 months this will be a real buyers market..the only thing will be nobody in their right mind will want to buy then as the economy really will be dead.

You'll have to get over this fascination about booming economies and booming house prices. Im not proposing massive house price increases im advocating that house prices will increase steadily between 3% - 5% per year for the next 5 years. This is inline with an economy that is growing slowly. If you think house prices are static and that suddenly an economy booms and they take off, this doesnt happen.

I dont think the percentage gains i talk about are unrealistic in an area thats considered one of the most desirable in Ireland to live. Compound those percentages over 5 years and you'll find yourself way off what house prices are now and you definitely wont be able to afford to live in SCD then.

wirelessdude01

Need4House wrote: »

OK smart mouth..where have the jobs been created?

Let me guess you cant say. They are simply existing vacancies being refilled due to people how have cleared off...that isn't job creation.

If that is the case then it is people who has chosen to leave this country to go travelling or whatever.

Need4House

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Need4House, lets get to the root of this. What exactly do YOU want to happen so that this rant can end?

Make me an offer.