medical card uproar, a smoke screen over foreign aid?

Victor

alastair wrote: »

What does it matter if it does? It's part of our aid package to the developing world. The point is we've cut back our overall commitment, not increased it as you claimed.

Are you confusing me with someone else?

alastair wrote: »

The EU doesn't levy any taxes within constituent states. EU states have agreed VAT rates in certain areas as part of a common market agreement. Different thing altogether.

States are obliged by the EU to charge VAT. A portion of VAT receipts goes to the EU, so saying the EU levies VAT is as close to the truth as is meaningful.

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hm, fair enough I suppose - but the implication is that this is a bad thing, and that humanity is better served by people building walls around various-sized fiefdoms with a view to denying those outside access to what is "theirs", and the belief inherent in such behaviour that the members of the fiefdom are intrinsically more deserving than those outside of it.

I'm not convinced that a humanity that's divided into competing "societies" or "countries" is a better thing than a humanity that views all its members as having equal worth.

All humanity has an equal value - at a base level of what it is to be human. It is natural for man to be subjective however: your family, your neighbourhood, your community, your country will take precedence, in that order, over those of another. This isn't just the consequence of artificial constructs, but is hard-wired into our biology.

Having said that, it is negative for it to be taken to either extreme. Communists went whole hog trying to forcibly extirpate things that were seen to divide mankind: nationality, culture, religion. To avoid quoting Orwell, the LCD created was not something one would like to recreate. Not that communist countries haven't had walls - they did (and do) - but they have been mainly used to prevent escape, not to keep people out.

At the other extreme "thinkers" at the turn of the 20th Century took up Darwinism and misinterpreted its meaning in a social context (social-darwinism): the idea that societies are in a survival of the fittest. While it is true that societies compete with on another, it is largely a passive affair that can not really be directed at a national level. Unfortunately, that distinction was lost on those who thought that the Great War would be the ground upon which the strength of their society would be decided. Madness.

Walls are useful. Don't knock walls. A world without walls is a more dangerous place - "with absolute freedom noone is free". The fact that there are walls doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be topped with razor wire or guarded though.

alastair

RandomName2 wrote: »

Not as a service, no.

Nonsense. Of course it is. Just because you don't personally benefit from it, doesn't mean it's not a service.

alastair

Victor wrote: »

Are you confusing me with someone else?

I was, yes. Apologies for that.

Victor wrote: »

States are obliged by the EU to charge VAT. A portion of VAT receipts goes to the EU, so saying the EU levies VAT is as close to the truth as is meaningful.

The portion of VAT that gets passed on to EU funding is tiny - 0.3%, it would be truer to say that every other form of sovereign taxation contributes more to funding the EU (twice as much as VAT), but, given that we've historically been, and continue to be, a net beneficiary of the EU budget, the issue is moot.

RandomName2

alastair wrote: »

Nonsense. Of course it is. Just because you don't personally benefit from it, doesn't mean it's not a service.

A public service providing a service entirely outside its jurisdiction is a contradiction in terms.

alastair

RandomName2 wrote: »

A public service providing a service entirely outside its jurisdiction is a contradiction in terms.

Now, why would you imagine such a thing?

RandomName2

alastair wrote: »

Now, why would you imagine such a thing?

A public service is a service which is provided by government to people living within its jurisdiction, either directly (through the public sector) or by financing private provision of services.

Why, what you you imagine 'the public' is?

alastair

RandomName2 wrote: »

A public service is a service which is provided by government to people living within its jurisdiction, either directly (through the public sector) or by financing private provision of services.

Why, what you you imagine 'the public' is?

Irish Aid is a service provided on behalf of the Irish public, by a public sector organisation. That it's services are provided to recipients outside the state, doesn't remove the reality of it's status as a service, or of it's public nature.

RandomName2

alastair wrote: »

Irish Aid is a service provided on behalf of the Irish public, by a public sector organisation. That it's services are provided to recipients outside the state, doesn't remove the reality of it's status as a service, or of it's public nature.

The fact that a service provided to non-citizens is a service is not in dispute. Nor Irish Aid's position as a public body (or part thereof). But what it provides abroad is, by definition, not a public service.

alastair

RandomName2 wrote: »

The fact that a service provided to non-citizens is a service is not in dispute. Nor Irish Aid's position as a public body (or part thereof). But what it provides abroad is, by definition, not a public service.

You still haven't produced anything to support this belief. Probably because it makes no sense.

Cork boy 55

I think Ireland is spending too much money here on ODA
Given the state of our economy relative to those ahead of us in OECD, Ireland is the most generous country in the world for this currently, IMO.
I think spending should be reduced to circa 200 million region(~2000 levels)

(1)
We gave 636 million to Irish AID for ODA in 2011
That's about 2% of all taxes we took in.


(2)
Ireland ODA 1996-2011 trend
1996 142 million
1999 230 million
2003 455 million
2007 734 million
2010 671 million
2011 636 million
2012 n/a
2013 n/a
2014 602 million

(3)
We are the eight most generous donor of ODA per captia in the OECD
2009 figures
Greece give 0.29% ODA/GNI
Germany gives 0.35% ODA/GNI
Ireland gives 0.54% ODA/GNI
Denamark 0.88% ODA/GNI
Average 0.31% ODA/GNI
We have an Nordic ODA program on a PIIGS budget driven by political apparitions rather than the economic reality 1.54 times higher than Germany rate.

Links
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/overseas-development-aid-to-be-cut-by-14-1-million-1.1561873
http://www.oecd.org/investment/stats/44981892.pdf
http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/whitepaper/assets/White%20Paper%20English.pdf



ODA is now nearly three times higher than 1999 its nearly twice the OECD average
and over 2% of all tax receipts clearly the Celtic tiger period spawned a powerful lobby with an out of control and unsustainable AID budget which for some unfathomable reason has not been cut to its correct size relative to real economic output/performance and your neighbors in similarly circumstance to us.

alastair

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

We gave 636 million to Irish AID for ODA in 2011
That's about 2% of all taxes we took in.

1.8% actually, and lower both years since. But it's a rather arbitrary measure. Denmark's contribution to ODA is about twice what we give as a percentage of GNI - so we're nowhere near that territory, but then Denmark levies taxes at about twice our rates, as a percentage of GDP. Simply put, we are comparatively generous amongst OECD states when it comes to ODA (eighth as you say), but we're rather low down the rankings on taxes levied - so it's an artificial measure. A 1.8% slice of a comparitively low tax system pie isn't that impressive when it's compared to a system that pulls in (in % terms) twice as much in taxes.

micosoft

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I think Ireland is spending too much money here on ODA
Given the state of our economy relative to those ahead of us in OECD, Ireland is the most generous country in the world for this currently, IMO.
I think spending should be reduced to circa 200 million region(~2000 levels)

While I disagree with Cork Boy 55, he has provided a rational, decent basis for discussion on our spend unlike a number of the other posters who settle for base xenophobia or worse.

I guess what I would say is that there is a basis reducing our spend in light of our fall in economic output, which is happening. Furthermore, a lot of the Irish Aid spend would be part of five, eight or ten year commitments. It would be extremely unfair to pull out unilaterally from these agreements as it would create havoc for the recipient nation. It would always have to be a negotiated and gradual drop in spend if that was what you decided to do as a state.

AlekSmart

micosoft wrote: »

While I disagree with Cork Boy 55, he has provided a rational, decent basis for discussion on our spend unlike a number of the other posters who settle for base xenophobia or worse.

I guess what I would say is that there is a basis reducing our spend in light of our fall in economic output, which is happening. Furthermore, a lot of the Irish Aid spend would be part of five, eight or ten year commitments. It would be extremely unfair to pull out unilaterally from these agreements as it would create havoc for the recipient nation. It would always have to be a negotiated and gradual drop in spend if that was what you decided to do as a state.

I second the opinion on Cork Boy55's post and his reasoning.

I would also suggest that our ODA levels and commitments should have been directly addressed in the context of the "Troika" scenario.

If we are seeing significant and ongoing enforced reductions to the provision of services to contributing Citizens within the Republics home territory,then it surely follows that ODA levels should be among the first areas for equally significant reductions ?

The issue of long-term ODA committments is also one wheich may require some re-negotiation in the same manner as our debt restructuring activities out in "The Markets".

We,as a country,simply do not have fiscal ability to stand over 10 year ODA commitments entered into since 2009,so it would appear prudent to either default on these or restructure as appropriate ?.

eyescreamcone

micosoft wrote: »

While I disagree with Cork Boy 55, he has provided a rational, decent basis for discussion on our spend unlike a number of the other posters who settle for base xenophobia or worse.

Sometimes you exaggerate more than anyone in the whole universe

Seriously, where is all this xenphobia going on?

Also, what's worse than base xenophobia?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

We,as a country,simply do not have fiscal ability to stand over 10 year ODA commitments entered into since 2009,so it would appear prudent to either default on these or restructure as appropriate ?.

The ODA commitment we entered into is already linked to our economic activity/health (as a percentage of GNI). We are required to contribute less in a downturn, than we did in the boom.

AlekSmart

alastair wrote: »

The ODA commitment we entered into is already linked to our economic activity/health (as a percentage of GNI). We are required to contribute less in a downturn, than we did in the boom.

Fair enough,but I would suggest that "less" in this case could be taken to equal Zero for the foreseeable future ?

djpbarry

AlekSmart wrote: »

Fair enough,but I would suggest that "less" in this case could be taken to equal Zero for the foreseeable future ?

Why?

alastair

AlekSmart wrote: »

Fair enough,but I would suggest that "less" in this case could be taken to equal Zero for the foreseeable future ?

Because our fiscal situation means we can't afford a single cent to save lives abroad?

Eh, no. Can't agree with you there.

walshb

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The amount of aid we give has been cut in successive budgets, and was cut again in Budget 2014.
.

When will it be zero?

Then we can reassess it. See where we can improve here. Maybe even help our elderly folk who have been slashed badly in the budget. It's like taking money in the front door and throwing it out the back door as regards foreign aid.

walshb

spank_inferno wrote: »

Personally I'd be happy for further domestic spending cuts to maintain our already much reduced foreign aid budget.

Take from your neighbor to give to people you have never even met? Marvellous!

alastair

walshb wrote: »

Take from your neighbor to give to people you have never even met? Marvellous!

You're aware your taxes primarily go to people you've never met? Your horizons seem needlessly constrained.

walshb

alastair wrote: »

You're aware your taxes primarily go to people you've never met? Your horizons seem needlessly constrained.

At least I can see them.

RandomName2

alastair wrote: »

Because our fiscal situation means we can't afford a single cent to save lives abroad?

I would suggest that that is an overly emotive response.

Moreover, the aim of foreign aid shouldn't be to save lives per se, but to to provide sustainable improvement to the quality of life.

alastair

RandomName2 wrote: »

I would suggest that that is an overly emotive response.

Moreover, the aim of foreign aid shouldn't be to save lives per se, but to to provide sustainable improvement to the quality of life.

Nothing emotional about it - I'm simply disagreeing with the belief that we can't afford any foreign aid. It's just not the case.

ODA is normally about providing funding and expertise for sustainable projects that improve quality of life, education, healthcare, and in the final analysis; saves lives.

alastair

walshb wrote: »

At least I can see them.

Really? That's some trick.

djpbarry

walshb wrote: »

When will it be zero?

Then we can reassess it. See where we can improve here. Maybe even help our elderly folk who have been slashed badly in the budget.

Because Ireland doesn't spend enough on welfare already?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24729073

India has successfully launched a spacecraft to the Red Planet - with the aim of becoming the fourth space agency to reach Mars.

The Mars Orbiter Mission took off at 09:08 GMT from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre on the country's east coast.

The head of India's space agency told the BBC the mission would demonstrate the technological capability to reach Mars orbit and carry out experiments.

The spacecraft is set to travel for 300 days and reaching Mars orbit in 2014.

our aid well spent

Geuze

What a joke.....

We are asked to give both public and private charity to India.

While at the same time they have:

nuclear submarines
a space programme
a house reputedly worth a billion dollars

https://www.google.ie/#q=largest%20house%20in%20Mumbai

NIMAN

I posted this in another thread, and apparently we do not donate taxpayers to India.

spank_inferno

Once Malawi has a space programe you can gripe..

.... though the UK taxpayers can have a legitimate gripe, they donate a lot of aid to India.

Count Dooku

NIMAN wrote: »

I posted this in another thread, and apparently we do not donate taxpayers to India.

not directly, it just allows Indian government spend less on own people and keep Irish charity staff entertained on taxpayers expense

alastair

Count Dooku wrote: »

not directly, it just allows Indian government spend less on own people and keep Irish charity staff entertained on taxpayers expense

Again - We don't contribute any ODA to India - directly or indirectly. The full list of recipient nations are on the Dept of Foreign Affairs website.

Cork boy 55

alastair wrote: »

Again - We don't contribute any ODA to India - directly or indirectly. The full list of recipient nations are on the Dept of Foreign Affairs website.

Yes We Do

albeit a small fraction of the overall ODA

IrishAid annual report 2011
Annex 8
Analysis of Bilateral ODA
by Recipient Country
Support Country through Civil Society Funding Schemes Recovery
India 3,424,000 Euros (2012 3,348,000)
http://www.irishaid.gov.ie/media/irishaid/allwebsitemedia/20newsandpublications/publicationpdfsenglish/2011-irish-aid-annual-report.pdf

And that's just the Bilateral ODA its possible there is other funds going there as well through NGOs or orther routes possible the International Institute for Environment and Development (IIED) or others

Even at that its still a fraction of overall IrishAid not a major issue
more of issue for the English.

Victor

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Yes We Do

albeit a small fraction of the overall ODA

IrishAid annual report 2011
India 3,424,000 Euros (2012 3,348,000)

Will I give you your €0.73 back?

djpbarry

Geuze wrote: »

What a joke.....

We are asked to give both public and private charity to India.

While at the same time they have:

nuclear submarines
a space programme
a house reputedly worth a billion dollars

https://www.google.ie/#q=largest%20house%20in%20Mumbai

But people in India are still dying from easily preventable causes. So, we can choose to try and do something about that, or we can ignore it because India has a space program.

eyescreamcone

djpbarry wrote: »

But people in India are still dying from easily preventable causes. So, we can choose to try and do something about that, or we can ignore it because India has a space program.

These people are not the responsibility of the Irish state.

If people wish to donate privately then feel free.

djpbarry

eyescreamcone wrote: »

These people are not the responsibility of the Irish state.

The Irish state has committed to donating 0.7% of GNI to ODA.

eyescreamcone

djpbarry wrote: »

The Irish state has committed to donating 0.7% of GNI to ODA.

Blah Blah Blah
At the end of the day they are not the responsibility of the state.

Our government can choose to give them any amount they like - that does not make them OUR responsibility.

creedp

djpbarry wrote: »

The Irish state has committed to donating 0.7% of GNI to ODA.

So it doesn't matter how that money is allocated .. I have to say I agree with people who complain that we shouldn't be allocating foreign aid to countries with space exploration programmes or indeed countries where a significant proportion is siphoned off to feather bed the ruling military regime. Its easy to be flippant about these things of course but I do think people expressing those sentiments shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Count Dooku

djpbarry wrote: »

The Irish state has committed to donating 0.7% of GNI to ODA.

The Irish state committed to have cheapest bank bailout in history....
We should say sorry and use saved money for recovery instead paying for FF promises

alastair

creedp wrote: »

So it doesn't matter how that money is allocated ...

Who said that it didn't?

Your 73c that went to projects for the poor in India really winds you up? Does the fact that the Irish government have expenditures that you might not agree with, mean that any charity-funded projects in Ireland are equally undeserving? Could it be that the Indian government see their space programme as a component of it's plans the lift the country out of poverty?

Unless you've evidence that Irish Aid is being siphoned off by military regimes, it's not really much of an argument.

creedp

alastair wrote: »

Who said that it didn't?

Your 73c that went to projects for the poor in India really winds you up? Does the fact that the Irish government have expenditures that you might not agree with, mean that any charity-funded projects in Ireland are equally undeserving? Could it be that the Indian government see their space programme as a component of it's plans the lift the country out of poverty?

Unless you've evidence that Irish Aid is being siphoned off by military regimes, it's not really much of an argument.

What's is the point of bleating on about the €0.73. It seems to me that some people can simply never accept that another person has a point to make.

alastair

creedp wrote: »

What's is the point of bleating on about the €0.73. It seems to me that some people can simply never accept that another person has a point to make.

Who's not accepted that?

The point was:
1. You're whinging over a paltry 73c
2. You're making accusations without evidence (military regimes siphoning off Irish Aid)
3. You're suggesting Irish Aid isn't allocated on the basis of merit.

eyescreamcone

When you look at the HSE/schools/economy you realise how bad a decision maker our government(s) have been.

All this taking into account how well "informed" they should be when making decisions on local matters.

I certainly don't trust our government to spend our money appropriately, thousands of miles away.


Not to mention the fact that I believe we could be spending this money more appropriately looking after our own elderly/needy citizens.

K-9

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Blah Blah Blah
At the end of the day they are not the responsibility of the state.

Our government can choose to give them any amount they like - that does not make them OUR responsibility.

alastair wrote: »

Who's not accepted that?

The point was:
1. You're whinging over a paltry 73c
2. You're making accusations without evidence (military regimes siphoning off Irish Aid)
3. You're suggesting Irish Aid isn't allocated on the basis of merit.

creedp wrote: »

What's is the point of bleating on about the €0.73. It seems to me that some people can simply never accept that another person has a point to make.

Mod:

Indeed, we can have a discussion without accusing others of whinging or going blah, blah, blah. Keep it civil please.

creedp

alastair wrote: »

Who's not accepted that?

The point was:
1. You're whinging over a paltry 73c
2. You're making accusations without evidence (military regimes siphoning off Irish Aid)
3. You're suggesting Irish Aid isn't allocated on the basis of merit.

Define whinging! Give it a break. I suggested that people who complained about giving ODA to countries pursuing space programmes have a valid point. We all have our hobby horses ... I would let anyone critisize my Ford car .. I'd defend it to the hilt and tell them they didn't know what they wre talking about even if someone reasonably pointed out there are better options out there. But hey this is a discussion board so I'll just let you to it!

alastair

creedp wrote: »

Define whinging! Give it a break. I suggested that people who complained about giving ODA to countries pursuing space programmes have a valid point. We all have our hobby horses ... I would let anyone critisize my Ford car .. I'd defend it to the hilt and tell them they didn't know what they wre talking about even if someone reasonably pointed out there are better options out there. But hey this is a discussion board so I'll just let you to it!

Cheers for that. Nothing wrong with having a hobby horse, but false claims are another matter.

djpbarry

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Blah Blah Blah
At the end of the day they are not the responsibility of the state.

You can dismiss it all you like, but the fact is the state made a commitment.

You’re suggesting the state to renege on its commitments?

eyescreamcone wrote: »

When you look at the HSE/schools/economy you realise how bad a decision maker our government(s) have been.

All this taking into account how well "informed" they should be when making decisions on local matters.

I certainly don't trust our government to spend our money appropriately, thousands of miles away.

So your argument is against public spending in general, rather than a specific argument against ODA?

djpbarry

creedp wrote: »

So it doesn't matter how that money is allocated ..

Great big straw man – nobody has said any such thing.

creedp wrote: »

I have to say I agree with people who complain that we shouldn't be allocating foreign aid to countries with space exploration programmes or indeed countries where a significant proportion is siphoned off to feather bed the ruling military regime. Its easy to be flippant about these things of course but I do think people expressing those sentiments shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

They should if they don’t provide any evidence that aid is being siphoned off.

creedp wrote: »

I suggested that people who complained about giving ODA to countries pursuing space programmes have a valid point.

No, people questioning why India has a space programme might have a valid point. People questioning why poverty-stricken people in India require assistance do not.