Anti-Social Behaviour Resolutions.

eamonn3974

Howdy Folks,

Just looking for some advice from anyone who has hadproblems with anti-social behavior from neighbors in the past or has beenthrough a similar situation as ourselves. We have a problem with neighbors inour estate. In our part of the estate there are 9 houses in a separate squaredsection of the larger estate. We, my partner & I own our property and theissues arises due to neighbors two doors away from us whom are renting theirproperty.

The neighbor family is a couple in their late thirties /early forties who have 5 children and who have lived in the estate for abouttwo years now. Maybe a year back the family was first confronted due to one oftheir children breaking a window in the front of our house. The confrontationwas amicable and we simply told the parents that the child had broken thewindow whilst hitting stones around the block with a hurl. The parentsimmediately denied it was their child whom had broke the window, refused toreplace the window and blamed the child of another family who live adjacent toour block and had been in playing with the neighbor child. Fair enough, we asked that the kids not beplaying with hurleys in the block and let it go as neither family would takeresponsibility.

About two weeks later another window was broken in the frontof our house. I was at home at the time and immediately looked out andwitnessed the neighbor children running away. We called the Gardai this timeand the same as before, the family denied all and blamed other kids despite mywitnessing that only their kids were present in the block. Gardai couldn’tproceed with any charges as there was no solid evidence to go with so thecomplaint was noted and we were advised to start documenting any incidents withthese neighbors.

It’s worth noting here that prior to these two incidentsthat I had witnessed, my partner had had to replace 4 different windows in themonths before I moved in and all after the family in question moved into theneighborhood. This was a total of 6 windows smashed in our house alone within12 months. Things gradually became worse as the big brave men of the family andhis relatives would regularly gather outside the house while the kids continuedto behaved like animals out in the block. Cars began constantly coming andgoing from the house with horns beeping at all hours. More and more damage washappening to the houses in the block. The kid’s actually went so far as towrite their own names on other peoples downstairs window sills and side gatesand were regularly caught trespassing in gardens and creeping along the backwalls which run across everyone’s gardens. Bags of rubbish were left around theblock and the litter strewn by the children accumulated. Added to this was anair of intimidation which began to come from the family in question with smartremarks, eyeballing, mumbled threats and finger gestures.

We contacted the council but received no advice or response initiallyso we got talking to other residents in the block, three other owners and onetenant. They began to tell us of the similar damage that had been done to theirhomes, namely broken windows, broken side gates, engine oil poured across thefront door and step of one house, heating oil tank pushed over in the garden ofanother neighbor and similar concerns regarding the parking of cars and thenoise from the cars coming and going at all hours and lazy parents holleringfor their kids.

Soon after we had a cinder block thrown at the front door ofone of the houses by the father of the family. This was thrown whilst allegedlyhunting a rat which was feeding of the rubbish accumulated in the block. Againthe Guards we called and this time the complaint was proceeded with due to thedamage to the door, namely a cracked panel and chunk missing from the doorframe. This was replaced by the father of the family and within days themumbling of threats and anti-social behavior escalated because we had reportedthe incident to the council. The council finally replied saying they werelooking into the matter with the local Gardai liaison officer but we never hadany feedback or further communication from the council or this liaison officerwhom we still have not met.

A few of the residents set up bi-monthly meeting to discussthese issues with the area and try to get the matter resolved jointly. We had afew attempts to clean up the block but this soon fizzled out due to lack ofpride in the area…why should we clean it up just so they can mess it all overagain. My partner and I and only two other owners lived bloke and all the otherprivately owned homes are let out by the owners. One other home owner has beenunable to successfully let her house due to it being directly alongside thefamily and largely due, in fairness and to her own considerable finical loss, toher refusal to let her house to a family like those in question and the refusalto allow the other owners to have to endure such anti-social neighbors.

As of a few weeks again things took a drastic turn whenanother home owner went ahead and let out his house to relations of the firstfamily so now we have two families from the same disrespectful ilk in the area andthe place has become a hangout for the men of the households and their type tostand around pavements, outside parked cars, sitting on neighbors window sills,door steps and gates drinking and talking **** for hours on end. When asked tomove away from other people’s windows and doors the usual smart mouthed, barelyintelligible empty threats are issued before they skulk off only to returnafter a few days.

Further contact was made with the council to which they saidthey are again investigating the matter but as of yet there is no sign of any councilintervention despite the fact that both families are housed in the block withthe aid of rent subsidies from the council.

Since being told to document the issues by Gardai we havecompiled over 40 incidents of the kids throwing stones at the doors andwindows, kids trespassing in gardens, the big brave men of the households andtheir “butties” drinking and loitering around other residents houses and carsand constantly being asked to move their cars and stop blocking access to theindividual houses and block. We’ve had cars damaged, windows broke, dogsterrorized, litter and damage to house fronts and all amid the continued air ofintimidation and verbal threats from these bastards, when they muster up thecourage when in groups of 4 or 5.

So boards readers,..have any of you had similar problems andhow did you resolve them.

(Sensible, logic andlegally acceptable recommendations only folks as this is a genuine issueseeking a genuine resolution.)

eamonn3974

Sorry about the spacing...something went wrong when formatting.:cool:

D3PO

Ive read this and it sounds dreadful. The biggest issue you have is proof. You have no proof any of the windows smashed were by them and the burden of proof is with you. Likewise the graffiti etc.

Unless you witness these things you cannot use them as a complaint. Id suggest the first port of call is to get CCTV installed so you can record the goings on aswell as any logs you have made.

I take It they are renting via the council and not privately ? If Privately I suggest you contact the LL's and ask them to intervene to resovle the issues, they have an obligation to prevent anti social behavior by tenants and if they don't do anything you can raise a case as a third party to the PRTB citing anti social grounds and look for the PRTB to get involved and force a reaction by the LL.

eamonn3974

Thanks D3PO. Yeah, proof is the thing. We went ahead and installed a videocamera a few months back. All we've caught so far is the kids and people coming and going from the house. Due to the angle of the camera we can't catch them at the down stairs window sills and hanging out at our front door but have the audio of them being asked to move.
We had contact with the home owner who moved in the relations of the initial family. He was told all the issues and agreed to not move them in but two weeks later the moved in. When we contacted the homeowner he just said he couldnt afford to not rent to them due to his mortgage so we're awaiting a reply from the council as both families are recieving rent allowance and then ourselves and a few of the other home owners are going to take it to the PRTB and a privates solicitor. On that note,..does anyone know who was the legal representation in the Templars Hall issue a few years back?

handlemaster

You need to find out name and address of landlord. Then pass details to all neighbours. Everytime there is an incident call him and either go to his house. He will eventually move them on.

D3PO

eamonn3974 wrote: »

. When we contacted the homeowner he just said he couldnt afford to not rent to them due to his mortgage

Tough luck to him. Explain to him his legal obligations as a LL. Print out some PRTB tribunal reports regarding LL's anti social tenants and complaints taken by neightbours and when he raises how big an issue renting to them will cause him he will soon cop on and do something.

If he doesn't make that complaint to the PRTB.

Make sure all contact with the LL's is in writing and any correspondence sent is registered post.

eamonn3974

Thanks,..the owner who refuses to let her house had the landlords details & I think she contacted him a few times but I'll get his details and go ahead with the registered letters to him to try nudge him into action first. Thanks for the advice.

D3PO

eamonn3974 wrote: »

Thanks,..the owner who refuses to let her house had the landlords details & I think she contacted him a few times but I'll get his details and go ahead with the registered letters to him to try nudge him into action first. Thanks for the advice.

I will try dig up some relevant PRTB tribunals for you over the weekend.

odds_on

D3PO wrote: »

I will try dig up some relevant PRTB tribunals for you over the weekend.

You will need the decision date to be able to find the particular decision. The PRTB website is not very user friendly as regards searching decisions - in fact, it is absolutely useless.

DR1371/2007 Decision month December 2008

1. The former tenants were in breach of their obligations under Section 16(h) of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, and engaged persistently in behaviour that prevented or interfered with the peaceful occupation by the Applicant Third Party,

DR292/2009 Decision Month Nov 2009

The Respondent Landlord shall issue the Tenants of the dwelling at Z with a formal written warning in compliance with his obligations under the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004, within 28 days of the date of issue of this Order, directing that the Tenants cease to allow other occupiers of, or visitors to the dwelling to behave within it or in the vicinity of it in a such a way as would affect the peaceful occupation of the residents of the other dwellings in Z.

DR1350/2008 Decision date April 2009

1. The Applicant Third Party’s claim of anti-social behaviour defined under Section 17 of the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004, in respect of the tenancy is upheld.
2. The Respondent Landlord shall ensure that the Tenants in occupation of the above dwelling comply with their obligations as set out under Section 16 of the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004.

DR1579/2008 Decision Date Apr 2009

1. The Respondent Landlord shall immediately serve a Notice of Termination on the tenants in occupation of the dwelling at ......
2. The Respondent Landlord shall employ the services of a professional Letting Agency for any future lettings and should any issue arise with future tenants the Landlord will deal with them in a speedy and efficient manner in relation to the tenancy of the above dwelling.
3. The Respondent Landlord shall pay the sum of €259 to XXXXXXX a Third Party Applicant for damages caused to XXXXXX's car by associates of the tenant TTTTTTTTTT in respect of the tenancy of the above dwelling.

DR 327/ 2011 Decision date Nov 2011

In the matter of X (Applicant Third Party) and Y (Respondent Landlord) the Private Residential Tenancies Board, in accordance with section 121 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, (the Act), determines that:

The Respondent Landlord shall pay the total sum of €1,500.00 to the Applicant Third Party, within 28 days of the date of issue of this Order, being damages for the Respondent Landlords breach of duty owed to certain third parties, in failing to enforce tenant’s obligations, in respect of the tenancy of the dwelling at Z

Pawwed Rig

I feel for you OP but unfortunately this may be a long drawn out process. I had a similar tenant in my house and it took nearly 2 years to move her on as the LL must go through alot of due process such as warning letters etc and give the tenant every opportunity to 'improve' their behaviour.
Even after the LL issues a notice of termination should the tenant then refuse to leave there is another long period before they can be forced out.

But get things in motion as soon as you can with either a complaint to the Landlord or a PRTB complaint.
These kind of people are pretty much above the law so the only recourse is to force the LL to get rid of them so they can move to someone elses area and destroy their peaceful habitation.

Sleepy

Have you tried the local Sinn Fein representative? Would never think of voting for them myself but their status as former terrorists is apparently very useful when they have a polite chat with such scumbags as your neighbours. Whether the threat of a knee-capping is real or imagined it'll be in their heads for a few months after and you should see some improvement in their behaviour.

eamonn3974

Thanks very much Odds On and D3, alot of useful material there that can be quoted in the contact with the landlords. Definitely goin down the LL and PRTB route now that we know how to go about it...got more sensible advice here than we ever did of any TD, council rep or liason personnel.
Would'nt be bothered with Sinn Fein or TD representation on this one as some of these tenents take pride in their supposed Sinn Fein and "indiginous native Irish cultural" heritage....in other words, they're right up Sinn Fein demographic.

Sleepy

They might be exactly the sort a quiet chat from the representative might work on so. Those sorts are slow to disassociate Sinn Fein from the balaclava and armalite...

dealhunter1985

eamonn3974 wrote: »

Thanks D3PO. Yeah, proof is the thing. We went ahead and installed a videocamera a few months back. All we've caught so far is the kids and people coming and going from the house. Due to the angle of the camera we can't catch them at the down stairs window sills and hanging out at our front door but have the audio of them being asked to move.
We had contact with the home owner who moved in the relations of the initial family. He was told all the issues and agreed to not move them in but two weeks later the moved in. When we contacted the homeowner he just said he couldnt afford to not rent to them due to his mortgage so we're awaiting a reply from the council as both families are recieving rent allowance and then ourselves and a few of the other home owners are going to take it to the PRTB and a privates solicitor. On that note,..does anyone know who was the legal representation in the Templars Hall issue a few years back?

That is awful. I feel bad for you.. I wonder would it be worth installing even more video cameras in all areas where the kids are loitering around your premises?

frag420

I have heard of people playing classical music and similar to disperse some of societies less wanted folks!!

Next time they are outside your house open the window and blast them Beethoven!!

the_syco

eamonn3974 wrote: »

Thanks D3PO. Yeah, proof is the thing. We went ahead and installed a videocamera a few months back. All we've caught so far is the kids and people coming and going from the house. Due to the angle of the camera we can't catch them at the down stairs window sills and hanging out at our front door but have the audio of them being asked to move.

Consider putting a small mirror outside the window to point (the camera feed) down at your front door.

Also, if you have a door with a small "eye hole", attach a camera to the inside looking out, with a live feed that is also recorded, and I'd say you'd catch a lot of brazen lads on video that would be very useful for court.

frag420 wrote: »

Next time they are outside your house open the window and blast them Beethoven!!

Although usually a good idea, in this case I'd say it'd be a bad idea, and lead to whatever emits the noise getting stolen or smashed.

=-=

Look into bringing the landlord to court over failure to do their job, in regards the tenants. Not sure what failure you'd be bringing about, but I'm sure a solicitor would know of a few. Bring the originals landlord to court, and the newer one will probably cop on fairly quickly.

eamonn3974

Cost is the main thing with the camera's Dealhunter85. Have asked the council to put up no ball playing signs in the blocks but nothing ever happened. Kid's are a nightmare, screaming and wailing all day in the square but its the parents that we want to take accountability for them and the Landlords for housing the unhousable here. The area seems to be becoming one of those estates where all kinds of "difficult" residents are being located to at the expense of buy to reside owners.

meoklmrk91

I am renting in an estate that sounds similar to yours, except that through fear and intimidation everyone backed down from them and things became much more serious, there has been some very serious crimes committed here since because people are too afraid to stand up to them and honestly I don't blame them. They receive no support from the local gardai in their complaints, which partly isn't their fault because they don't have many powers when it comes to anti-social behaviour.

But at least I am only renting, if things get very bad I can leave, I feel really sorry for people who bought homes here or the landlords who's vacant houses are broken into, stolen from, used for parties and wreaked. Do not back down and keep on to the council. Go and speak to a county councillor, bring your recordings of what has happened and show them what you have been dealing with, ask them to get the council to hurry on. Speak to your TD too, speak to anyone you can, the more people you have on your side the better, keep up those residents meetings and maybe even ask the county councillor and/or TD to sit in on one to hear what people are having to deal with. Whatever you do, do not back down now, they will think they have won and will think they can do whatever they want.

toothie

Sounds awful. I've had trouble with neighbour's kids and teenagers. My house and car have been badly damaged several times. After asking them not to climb my fence into my garden numerous times, without any heed, my friend suggested painting the fence with grease. It worked a treat, not one climber since.
They also like to play basketball outside my sitting room and it's like a hammer on my skull. Again, I've asked them to play outside their own house but no improvement. Like someone else suggested, I now play classical music really loudly. Sometimes it moves them on, sometimes it doesn't, but at least it drowns out some of the noise. It's awful feeling intimidated and like a prisoner in your own home.

Mrs OBumble

eamonn3974 wrote: »

....and the Landlords for housing the unhousable here.

So where exactly do you think these folks should live then?

If they are just moved to another estate, then we will simply have someone else posting here with the same issues.

Crazyivan 1979

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So where exactly do you think these folks should live then?

If they are just moved to another estate, then we will simply have someone else posting here with the same issues.

Well, yes. No one wants people like these living next door to them. Just moving them around to different places does nothing to tackle the problem. Maybe the dutch have the right idea:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2012/dec/04/liberal-amsterdam-plans-scum-villages

PLUG71

Crazyivan 1979 wrote: »

Well, yes. No one wants people like these living next door to them. Just moving them around to different places does nothing to tackle the problem. Maybe the dutch have the right idea:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2012/dec/04/liberal-amsterdam-plans-scum-villages

Class idea,make them live on the docks too.

foggy_lad

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So where exactly do you think these folks should live then?

If they are just moved to another estate, then we will simply have someone else posting here with the same issues.

How about spike island for starters. Give these leeches nothing. No state benefits nor money for their untrained feral offspring. Let the bastards starve!

eamonn3974

In reply to Ms O Bumble,..I'm not here to pass the problem on to some other poor owner or tenent in another area. While I'd love them to be moved out and that would be the preferential solution in this situation, I'm seeking advice or previous solutions of this problem.
I'd rather the elders of the household & landlords be held accountable. Kids are kids & some horseplay can be expected but when it gets this far the parents have to account. When the parents have considerable history of the same behaviours in multiple areas maybe the social services should intervene, impose rent subsidy penalties or something like that and also the initial landlords should do their background checks. Just this morning, the family in question filled a trailer with bags and bags of rubbish so I can only imagine what state the house is in.
In all fairness, if the kids have gotten this wild the it says alot about the environment within their households. That issue has been brought up with the appropiate people in the past and investigated but nothing changed. Definitely would'nt wish these neighbours on anyone else but myself and other neighbours have endured them as much as we can.
It will be a matter for the suitable housing authority & social services to worry about where they go next.

flutered

Sleepy wrote: »

Have you tried the local Sinn Fein representative? Would never think of voting for them myself but their status as former terrorists is apparently very useful when they have a polite chat with such scumbags as your neighbours. Whether the threat of a knee-capping is real or imagined it'll be in their heads for a few months after and you should see some improvement in their behaviour.

it the sinn fein rep can help, are they more entitled to a vote that the non helpers, sorry for ging off topic.

flutered

frag420 wrote: »

I have heard of people playing classical music and similar to disperse some of societies less wanted folks!!

Next time they are outside your house open the window and blast them Beethoven!!

also there is a type of paint advailable for this sort of carryon, it is made in derry, by who i dunno, but when painted on it never drys, also, it is hard to remove from clothes and skin, it was invented so use on downpipes a a deterrent to burgulars, mighty stuff, i had cause to use it back in the day, but the continued use of perscribed meds has eariesed it from whats left of my brain.

handlemaster

Simply olive oil will do the trick on the garden wall if they are inclined to sit on it.

handlemaster

Simply olive oil will do the trick on the garden wall if they are inclined to sit on it.

Pawwed Rig

eamonn3974 wrote: »

I'd rather the elders of the household & landlords be held accountable.

This is the crux of the problem. You and many other people prefer to blame the LL rather than hold these people to account for their actions. This leads to a system where the LL gets the hassle and the people get moved on but noone actually addresses their behavioural problems. All the checks in the world cannot identify a tenant that is antisocial as there are too many barriers to stop a LL checking properly. Every LL prefers good decent quiet tenants but unfortunately the ferral element sometimes convince the less diligent LL that they are actually respectable. Either way they will be housed somewhere and their behaviour will not change as noone in authority is willing to challenge it.

eamonn3974

I hear what you’re saying. Primarily we hold theseindividual tenants responsible for the behavior. I’ve rented myself in the pastas have many of my friends and family and we have always respected the areaswe’ve lived in, the community surrounding & the basic human decencies whendealing with anybody locally or beyond. The total lack of consideration fromthese people is their fault solely.

Initially, they were approached themselves., when thingsescalate the Gardai were contacted, the Gardai advised contacting the councilto get them to contact the respective landlords, but never received any furtherresponse from council, Gardai liaison or the landlords. So we are attempting tocontact the landlords ourselves to inform them what’s happening cause in allfairness..If you were renting to these people, would you not have concerns overthe behavior issue and the effects of such issues on the local people, theproperty itself and the reputation of the landlord with the other residents?

So far, the best legal and course of action for resolutionhas been to contact the landlords and I believe they are accountable when noother recourse has been found.

eamonn3974

Sorry once again for the formatting...p.c's playing up a bit.