do you think the present law on learner permits is hypocritical

TheChizler

ann13 wrote: »

when the cop stopped me at the check point he was very abusive and told me to not even drive the car down to the corner shop by myself. I wouldn't mind but I drive safe and my driving instructor has to wait a couple of weeks to upload my 12 lessons on the rsa website because it's having problems so I can't yet get a date for my driving test.

In fairness the guard didn't know you from anyone else, they have to operate under the assumption that you're as bad as the worst of them. You were lucky IMO!

creep

livemusic4life wrote: »

I know someone on a provisional license who got in an accident and the insurance company refused to pay out because they were an unaccompanied driver. Injured party were made to claim through some kind of fund. Insurance company then cancelled insurance and person cannot get another company to insure them. Don't think things aren't changing. In the uk you'd be charged for driving without appropriate license and invalid insurance. The same is happening here....

That's nonsense. They have to pay out to the third party. Your friend obviously had some wrong information filled in when filling out the insurance form. Probably a named driver under there parents insurance and using the car everyday for college or something in those regions.

Witcher

ann13 wrote: »

when the cop stopped me at the check point he was very abusive and told me to not even drive the car down to the corner shop by myself. I wouldn't mind but I drive safe and my driving instructor has to wait a couple of weeks to upload my 12 lessons on the rsa website because it's having problems so I can't yet get a date for my driving test.

Did he do you for it?

Like another poster said..the guards have to assume you're not capable of driving alone because they don't know you.

I know of people that have called the guards when they see learners on their own, I know I've suggested rigidly applying the law but that's a bit much imo.

Witcher

creep wrote: »

Yea obviously if there was harsher penalties I wouldn't drive, been through three checkpoints and two of them just checked tax and insurance and was on my way. One though asked me for my license and said if he saw me out again on my own he would do me. Told him I was running late for work. Thought it was quite funny as he was smiling saying it.

I could meet a prick of a gaurd that could do me, but sure a little fine won't hurt me.

Think a lot of the guards have sympathy because they learned under the old system and they'd feel like a hypocrite for doing ya for it.

tim3000

ann13 wrote: »

no he didn't fine me or give me penalty points he just treated me like dirt. It unnerved me as never had dealings with cops before. Now when i see cops I am nervous and that they could be around the corner. Don't like breaking the law I wonder how actual criminals deal with the stress. As if learning to drive is not stressful enough, have to keep driving though as none of my immediate family have a car or licence and are dependent on me to drive them especially since it's coming to winter. My mum is 59 and don't want her tired out walking miles and carrying heavy groceries.

Thats unfortunate, how far are you from doing the test?

Witcher

ann13 wrote: »

no he didn't fine me or give me penalty points he just treated me like dirt. It unnerved me as never had dealings with cops before. Now when i see cops I am nervous and that they could be around the corner. Don't like breaking the law I wonder how actual criminals deal with the stress. As if learning to drive is not stressful enough, have to keep driving though as none of my immediate family have a car or licence and are dependent on me to drive them especially since it's coming to winter. My mum is 59 and don't want her tired out walking miles and carrying heavy groceries.

If he was going to let you iff with a warning there was no need to rip you out of it, I don't see what purpose that serves.

I understand the situation with your mum and I know I said tough sh1t if you've nobody to accompany you but I have to take that back not everybody's situation is the same and as you said not everybody has somebody close with a licence to go with them.

FanadMan

creep wrote: »

Yea obviously if there was harsher penalties I wouldn't drive, been through three checkpoints and two of them just checked tax and insurance and was on my way. One though asked me for my license and said if he saw me out again on my own he would do me. Told him I was running late for work. Thought it was quite funny as he was smiling saying it.

I could meet a prick of a gaurd that could do me, but sure a little fine won't hurt me.

This, out of the whole thread shows how stupid the law on unaccompanied drivers is. As far as I am concerned, if someone driving unaccompanied is caught, the fine should be minimum €350. And if caught again, the car should be seized.

I'm not saying all that as a grumpy old b0llix, just as someone who has seen lots of stupid kids driving overpowered cars (paid for by rich daddies), maybe not even a learner permit or insurance.

What if they hit me? Do I have to pay for their stupidity and arrogance (from talking to some of them, they are Gods gift to driving.....well, in their own minds!)

The law is there - drive with an experienced driver. Most of the people here seem to obey the rest of the laws.....drink driving, speeding etc so why not go the whole hog and get the full licence?

MascotDec85

Where to start..........

MascotDec85

ann13 wrote: »

i've done the 12 lessons and am waiting for them to be uploaded onto rsa website which may take a week or so cos the website has issues. Then when their uploaded i'll get a date don't know how long that will take or what the waiting time is. I can do the three point turn, hill start no bother not great at reversing around the corner need more practice. Doing lessons in the mean time. I have been avoiding certain routes with complicated junctions and lights cos i'm not great at them and are not familiar with cos I didn't do it with the instructor i might get a different instructor for a lesson or two who explains and critiques more while driving, I like the instructor I have now as well their nice.

Ann, there are no issues with the uploading process to my knowledge

ZeitgeistGlee

Currently learning to drive at the ripe old age of 26, think the law is sensible and completely fair. Then again I'm also for mandatory retesting (theory and practical) of every driver after 10 years and the inclusion of a new plate for after you pass your test for twelve months to notify other road users that the driver may still not be fully confident driving on their own.

Nodferatu

Theres actually a LOT of s***ty drivers out there who drive recklessly speeding and overtaking in dangerous areas.
and what is it with people NOT USING INDICATORS???
Im fully qualified but i think there are people on the roads who need to stick L plates on and go back and get a few lessons.

Dravokivich

tim3000 wrote: »

So if I just do my full 12 lessons, sit my test and pass am I then a better or worse driver than someone who has done 12 lessons driven a large amount accompanied and unaccompanied sat his test and passed it?

Its not abiut you being "dangerous" while unaccompanied. You shouldnt be there while unaccompanied. All the other stuff is just point scoring between posters here.

quietsailor

ann13 wrote: »

no he didn't fine me or give me penalty points he just treated me like dirt. It unnerved me as never had dealings with cops before. Now when i see cops I am nervous and that they could be around the corner. Don't like breaking the law I wonder how actual criminals deal with the stress. As if learning to drive is not stressful enough, have to keep driving though as none of my immediate family have a car or licence and are dependent on me to drive them especially since it's coming to winter. My mum is 59 and don't want her tired out walking miles and carrying heavy groceries.

I want to get this bit out of way first before going any further My mum is 59 and don't want her tired out walking miles and carrying heavy groceries.
Large grocery stores deliver shopping, &, seeing as you're all fond of asking for examples - I've friends living in the absolute back end of no-where in Co. Limerick & they get their shopping delivered out from Limerick - €7 peak or €4.50 off peak, thats less than it costs them to go in & out to Limerick (including tax & insurance servicing etc) so this is no excuse to drive unaccompanied, even if you they don't service your area you can ask to get it delivered to a friends house and the friend drop it to you


Just so you know where I'm coming from; Full car licence since 1998, I'd have been driving tractors since I was 11/12 yrs old on farmland and then on the road at 16 so I had a huge amount of driving time - literally thousands of hours - before sitting the test.
When I was practicing my father insisted I never drive unaccompanied as I couldn't read the road correctly yet, in fact we were saved one day because he grabbed the steering wheel and we avoided hitting a car at speed.


This is mainly questioning ann13, Tim3000 & creep - there may be others who are on your side of the argument and it's directed at ye too.

You've been talking about hypothetical situations all along and how "I can drive better unaccompanied than most full licence drivers".

Fair enough - here's a few hypotheticals for ye;

1. How do you drive up a hill in snow when your tyres are skidding - front wheel drive car - you've been caught unexpectedly up a mountain late at night by snow and have no-where to stay overnight.
2. Your car is stuck at a dangerous crossroads in gear and engine stalled and the gearbox is broken so your stuck in 3rd gear, if you don't move someone will come around the corner and hit you.
3. What do you do in heavy floods - do you know what can happen to your car in heavy floods?

These actually aren't hypotheticals, they all happened to me within 5 yrs of passing my driving test and if I hadn't had my father along as an accompanied driver before the test and he was telling me stories of dangerous situations I wouldn't have known what to do, the one of the broken gearbox at a junction - I had the car moved within seconds of it cutting out and less than a minute after I moved it a boy racer shot through the junction - he would have t-boned my car on the drivers side and I would have needed to be cut out of the wreck

quietsailor

Sorry for the 2nd post but the first one was getting long;

I'm the accompanying driver for a friend of mine at the moment - she doesn't have family in Cork to help. When we're out & about I can see accidents and problems far down the road where she can't - we've had a few close calls because I let her drive on so she'll see the situation and know what I'm talking about afterwards. Most times we talk about these incidents she only sees them just before I start to tell her "brake" and is still figuring out what to so - she can't properly read the road. This is a woman in her late twenties, sensible enough person, who cycles a lot around the city so is aware of traffic and SHE CAN'T READ THE ROAD PROPERLY. Your posts make it seem your all in your teens/early twenties - if someone with years of cycling on the roads can't observe the road what makes you so sure you can?

From driving with her I do see though I have gotten into bad habits over the years so I've asked her driving instructor to take me out some day just to examine me and see what I need to correct.

I also think everyone should have mandatory retraining;

• I'd strongly back a campaign to have drivers sit retraining every 5 years, maybe a series of videos of situations and then multiple choice questions afterwards with a very high - 80%+ - pass rate
• Anyone who causes an accident should have to retrain, minor ones theory only, major accidents should require full training with all 12 lessons.
• Fully licenced drivers who passed their test have to display a placard (Green L maybe) for the first 2 yrs - that applies to people who cause accidents as well

V.W.L 11

quietsailor wrote: »

Sorry for the 2nd post but the first one was getting long;

I'm the accompanying driver for a friend of mine at the moment - she doesn't have family in Cork to help. When we're out & about I can see accidents and problems far down the road where she can't - we've had a few close calls because I let her drive on so she'll see the situation and know what I'm talking about afterwards. Most times we talk about these incidents she only sees them just before I start to tell her "brake" and is still figuring out what to so - she can't properly read the road. This is a woman in her late twenties, sensible enough person, who cycles a lot around the city so is aware of traffic and SHE CAN'T READ THE ROAD PROPERLY. Your posts make it seem your all in your teens/early twenties - if someone with years of cycling on the roads can't observe the road what makes you so sure you can?

From driving with her I do see though I have gotten into bad habits over the years so I've asked her driving instructor to take me out some day just to examine me and see what I need to correct.

I also think everyone should have mandatory retraining;

• I'd strongly back a campaign to have drivers sit retraining every 5 years, maybe a series of videos of situations and then multiple choice questions afterwards with a very high - 80%+ - pass rate
• Anyone who causes an accident should have to retrain, minor ones theory only, major accidents should require full training with all 12 lessons.
• Fully licenced drivers who passed their test have to display a placard (Green L maybe) for the first 2 yrs - that applies to people who cause accidents as well

truck and bus drivers who drive professionally (for a living) must do cpc tests,i done my initial cpc training now i am doing cpc periodic training for the rest of my driving career and i'm 29 now,look up driver cpc on the rsa website,you may or may not find it amusing but it definately helps

Eire Go Brach

Me and my gf are learning to drive and do it unaccompanied all the time. She does it more then me. We are both in our mid 30s. It's hard to get people to help us out as often as needed. It would take ages to get our license.


Admitley I hate doing it. I fully support the law. I will accept what ever punishment if caught.

But for some people and there situation it has to be done.

TheChizler

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

Me and my gf are learning to drive and do it unaccompanied all the time. She does it more then me. We are both in our mid 30s. It's hard to get people to help us out as often as needed. It would take ages to get our license.


Admitley I hate doing it. I fully support the law. I will accept what ever punishment if caught.

But for some people and there situation it has to be done.

Just to be pedantic I would point out that it's not done by necessity but by choice, as presumably she survived up to now? If she's driving at a test passing standard I don't really care, but the only person who can tell you that is a tester.

Eire Go Brach

TheChizler wrote: »

Just to be pedantic I would point out that it's not done by necessity but by choice, as presumably she survived up to now? If she's driving at a test passing standard I don't really care, but the only person who can tell you that is a tester.

Your right. It's by choice for us to speed things up.
I got my license last August 2012. Found it's so hard to get people with me. So much time in between. I was forgetting things. It's expensive using instructors where you should be using sponsor. I have probably done about 20 lessons.

I applied for my test just to motivate me. Then I started driving unaccompanied. Most of it is just to learn. Getting hours in the car. Driving around test routes etc. My goal is to get my full license. Not to continue driving on my learner permit.

For our situation. Relying on other people. It could take years. So I feel. It's what I have to do.

ann13

there is according to my instructor a problem with the system

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

That's nonsense. They have to pay out to the third party. Your friend obviously had some wrong information filled in when filling out the insurance form. Probably a named driver under there parents insurance and using the car everyday for college or something in those regions.

It's not nonsense. Last year while I was still a named driver on a learner permit, a notice came from the insurances stating that they were adding a new clause. I just looked at it and what it says is that any driver not meeting the conditions of their license (category or accompanying driver) is NOT insured.

Very simple. No accompanying driver = no insurance. Cause a crash and they won't pay out as you are not insured. The injured party claims through the uninsured drivers fund (not sure the exact name, but it exists) as the driver who caused the accident IS NOT INSURED.

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

It's not nonsense. Last year while I was still a named driver on a learner permit, a notice came from the insurances stating that they were adding a new clause. I just looked at it and what it says is that any driver not meeting the conditions of their license (category or accompanying driver) is NOT insured.

Very simple. No accompanying driver = no insurance. Cause a crash and they won't pay out as you are not insured. The injured party claims through the uninsured drivers fund (not sure the exact name, but it exists) as the driver who caused the accident IS NOT INSURED.

Which insurance company is that? Did it specifically say that because the normal scenario is that other peoples cars are insured not your own.

miss no stars

Axa

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

Axa

They have to pay out to third parties not your own vehicle. Well thats with liberty anyway.

Graham

From AIB/Axa Car Insurance Policy Booklet

13 Driving Licence Conditions.
No cover will apply under this policy for any driver who is not meeting the conditions of his/her licence/Learner permit. This includes conditions relating
to the class of vehicle being driven, the requirement to be accompanied when driving under a learner permit or any other restriction or condition that may apply.

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

They have to pay out to third parties not your own vehicle. Well thats with liberty anyway.

No, actually they don't. They've been quite clear in saying that if you're a learner and not accompanied you are not insured, end of. How much clearer can they be? And liberty is not axa, so I'm not sure why you're talking about axa based on liberty... Maybe check your policy anyway to make sure you are insured if driving alone... Or maybe, as with the lessons and test and really, everything to do with driving legally, you're not bothered.

Fluorescence

ann13 wrote: »

You know most of the actual driving instructors don't actually give that much guidance that you have just listed they just teach you how to drive and pass the test not how to avoid accidents. It is very Utopian your argument. Most people with common sense would not put themselves in driving conditions that they do not feel safe in such as snow and flood even the met eireann give out warnings not to drive if there is bad weather conditions unless you have to. As for your car failing you are meant to get a yearly NCT and make sure your car is in good condition. And having nowhere to stay overnight and caught up a mountain I am signed up to AA membership where if you are broke down away from home they provide accommodation free for you and get your car going again. And I assume your a man if you think it's okay to let my female family members to walk by themselves in the dark since it get's dark at 4:00 in winter for miles on a country road and get soaked to the skin well for you that you had 1,000 of hours of driving practice on your farm and you had your daddy helping you everyone does not have that. It is easy to judge from a place like that but that is not the reality for most people.

If your instructor isn't discussing general driving, safe driving and what to do in emergencies with you, you need to change instructors. They most definitely do not just teach "test driving" in my experience.

quietsailor

ann13 wrote: »

You know most of the actual driving instructors don't actually give that much guidance that you have just listed they just teach you how to drive and pass the test not how to avoid accidents. It is very Utopian your argument. Most people with common sense would not put themselves in driving conditions that they do not feel safe in such as snow and flood even the met eireann give out warnings not to drive if there is bad weather conditions unless you have to. As for your car failing you are meant to get a yearly NCT and make sure your car is in good condition. And having nowhere to stay overnight and caught up a mountain I am signed up to AA membership where if you are broke down away from home they provide accommodation free for you and get your car going again. And I assume your a man if you think it's okay to let my female family members to walk by themselves in the dark since it get's dark at 4:00 in winter for miles on a country road and get soaked to the skin well for you that you had 1,000 of hours of driving practice on your farm and you had your daddy helping you everyone does not have that. It is easy to judge from a place like that but that is not the reality for most people.

You do make it hard to understand your arguments with the wall of text.

Anyway family first - it sounds like you've a chip on your shoulder over parents "you had your daddy helping you everyone does not have that" - Are you seriously saying that you have no-one at all in your life who has a car and would be willing to help you?

As regards the "female family members to walk by themselves in the dark since it get's dark at 4:00 in winter for miles on a country road and get soaked to the skin" you either didn't read or refuse to acknowledge (maybe because it makes your poor me story sound better) the fact that shopping can be delivered. - btw we didn't have 2nd car in our family until I was 19 so my mother had to cycle to town if she needed groceries mid-week, your family certainly isn't alone in that one.

"You know most of the actual driving instructors don't actually give that much guidance that you have just listed they just teach you how to drive and pass the test not how to avoid accidents."
I couldn't agree more with you on this one, I wanted to report the first instructor my friend had as all he was doing was going through the motions. Anddddd funnily enough I just realised you've blown your own thread rant out of the water with that statement - this is one of the main reasons why you drive with an experienced fully licenced driver, you learn all the hints and tips that make a good driver quickly rather than having to experience them yourself over a number of years. Thats the main reason why an experienced driver should accompany you - we can read the road a lot better than you can and it makes for a safer journey - the reason behind all traffic law.


"Most people with common sense would not put themselves in driving conditions that they do not feel safe in such as snow and flood even the met eireann give out warnings not to drive if there is bad weather conditions unless you have to"
Unfortunately I do live in the real world not the Utopia you refer to, I had a family member sick in hospital and wanted to get to see them and got caught in the bad weather on bad roads when we were diverted after an accident.
2 things you as a learner driver should take from that story:
1. Life isn't perfect, you will eventually drive in weather outside your driving ability regardless of your travel planning(as I had to up that bloody mountain).
2. No matter how well you plan a journey expect things to go wrong; no-one can factor in an accident on the road causing a diversion. Had I not driven with my father pretest and heard his stories about driving in the snow I would have been caught.

"And having nowhere to stay overnight and caught up a mountain I am signed up to AA membership where if you are broke down away from home they provide accommodation free for you and get your car going again."
Read my post again - I wasn't broken down, I was caught by snow falling up a mountain - the AA aren't supermen, they can't travel everywhere and if you go driving around the country in bad roads/conditions expecting that you will have to do nothing but wait for them if you get in trouble........well you're going to land yourself in trouble as if our hypothetical incident occurs where you're stuck up a mountain and they can't get to you, well you don't have the skills or the knowledge to get out of it. I hadn't the full range of skills to get me out of that situation but I remembered what to do and drove slowly so I could react.

"As for your car failing you are meant to get a yearly NCT and make sure your car is in good condition. "
The car was NCT'd regularly, serviced between the manufacturers service intervals yet it broke down - s*!t happens with older cars - again in your case you would have sat there and been in an accident - why = you'd have waited for the AA and not tried to fix the problem yourself. As I said I was very lucky in that case not to have been in an accident.

You never answered what you would do in those situations - at least you were polite enough to reply unlike the others. I'm curious what would you do in those 3 situations

I'm not taking a dig at you over this, the problem is I can see why you need an accompanying driver but no matter what I or any other more experienced driver tell you you will have to go through each situation yourself to properly learn how to cope. But at least our accompanying drivers gave us ideas on how to cope, you're getting none at all.

Secondly if you're willing to break the law on this why should anyone believe that you comply with all other laws - if the two of us have an accident your going to be regarded as the more likely to be at fault because your driving unaccompanied. If your not being shown how to drive properly then who is showing you how to maintain a car - if there is an accident and its shown that your car was faulty then "But, but no-one ever showed me" will not get you out of court.

Media999

Fluorescence wrote: »

If your instructor isn't discussing general driving, safe driving and what to do in emergencies with you, you need to change instructors. They most definitely do not just teach "test driving" in my experience.

Not really. they literally only teach you what applies to your local test route. Why would they waste waste time by teaching you stuff that isnt in the test? They only want to get a pass and thats it. Its like school. If people know whats coming up in a test they sure as hell are not gonna waste their time studying something else.

Their literally teaching "test driving" and thats the problem.

No uphill starts in the snow. No monsoon driving. No broken gearbox as your crossing a junction or whatever else was mentioned.

But sure what can ya do? In an ideal world we could have no more than a fortnights waiting time and make the test harder to pass but its not gonna happen.

4 bloody months waiting where i am. 1 slip up and its the back of the queue for you. Knowing that makes people nervous.

quietsailor

Media999 wrote: »

Not really. they literally only teach you what applies to your local test route. Why would they waste waste time by teaching you stuff that isnt in the test? They only want to get a pass and thats it. Its like school. If people know whats coming up in a test they sure as hell are not gonna waste their time studying something else.

Their literally teaching "test driving" and thats the problem.

No uphill starts in the snow. No monsoon driving. No broken gearbox as your crossing a junction or whatever else was mentioned.

But sure what can ya do? In an ideal world we could have no more than a fortnights waiting time and make the test harder to pass but its not gonna happen.

4 bloody months waiting where i am. 1 slip up and its the back of the queue for you. Knowing that makes people nervous.

And this is why all the licence experienced drivers are telling the learner drivers they need an accompanying driver - we talk to ye about stuff like this, not just how to obey the law.

Fluorescence

Media999 wrote: »

Not really. they literally only teach you what applies to your local test route. Why would they waste waste time by teaching you stuff that isnt in the test? They only want to get a pass and thats it. Its like school. If people know whats coming up in a test they sure as hell are not gonna waste their time studying something else.

Their literally teaching "test driving" and thats the problem.

No uphill starts in the snow. No monsoon driving. No broken gearbox as your crossing a junction or whatever else was mentioned.

But sure what can ya do? In an ideal world we could have no more than a fortnights waiting time and make the test harder to pass but its not gonna happen.

4 bloody months waiting where i am. 1 slip up and its the back of the queue for you. Knowing that makes people nervous.

I can't have had the only instructor in the country who discussed those kinds of things with me. If each lesson is an hour long you've loads of time to talk about all sorts, from stuff specific to your test to general discussion arising from what unfolds on the road around you during your drive

As for 4 months wait, the current waiting lists are on average 10 weeks, and you can elect to go on the cancellation lists too.