do you think the present law on learner permits is hypocritical

hognef

ann13 wrote: »

yes it is actually different from fixing a computer as I do not want to become a computer technician it a once off service that you would require. Now if I needed to fix my computer the same amount of times you need driving practice I may actually think of doing a course in computer fixing.

Fair enough. Then how about having to pay a childminder to mind one's children when one has no family who is willng or able to do it for free? Should there be special rules for people without retired and willing parents, for example? At the end of the day, life is not fair.

ann13 wrote: »

It's well for a person who has a nice helpful family to take this viewpoint.

For the record, I didn't rely much on neither family nor friends for learning to drive. In fact, I passed my test in a country in which laws are actually adhered to, meaning upward of 20 normal instructor lessons, plus

• A mandatory instructor-led theory course (maybe a couple of Saturdays)
• A mandatory (3 hour?) course in night-time driving
• A mandatory (3 hour?) course in driving in slippery conditions
• A mandatory (3 hour?) course in manouvres such as overtaking

In total, this probably cost €2000. And that was nearly 20 years ago.

ann13 wrote: »

In Melbourne Australasia they don't say tough luck if you don't have someone to drive with you, they run a government program where people who have a full licence volunteer to mentor the learner driver the hours required to pass their test.

Sounds like an interesting scheme. What do they do in the rest of Austral(as)ia?

quietsailor

ann13 wrote: »

actually i don't have a chip on my shoulder about my family my father died from cancer before he was forty so don't be taking to me about having to me about having to visiting sick family member in hospital like I don't know it's not a poor me story. I don't have anyone who could come with me in the car what about this do people not understand actually I would prefer to have someone in the car to help to share the stress but I don't far from being poor me I don't give up and say oh well i must get on bike for transport i'm sure your dad never used a bike to get places it's always the woman . My mum and family members have more to do and places to go besides getting groceries like work which is a every day trip.

I'm afraid that while I'll feel sorry for you that he (your Dad) died it's not going to change my mind about driving on your own - how do you think your family will feel if you have a crash & are killed?

I was going home to see Dad before he went into Milford Hospice - cancer respite centre - when I got turned off the Cork/Limerick road & had to drive over the mountain, he died a few weeks later from pancreatic cancer - bastard of a thing.

And as for stress, it won't be shared equally, the accompanying driver will be getting most of it :eek: as we can read the road better and see the possible accidents occurring whereas inexperienced drivers can't.

"I don't have anyone who could come with me in the car" There is no-one at all in your life, no friend, no family member, no neighbour who has a full licence????? Thats not believable, no-one can be that cut off from life

Uaru

Fact is, is that people are going to drive unaccompanied because it is impractical to have someone with you all the time. I'm 29 and have drove motorbikes for over 6 years and have no intention of asking my mates to drive to my house so we can go out in the car while I'm learning. The guards don't care either way so I know there won't be an issue.

quietsailor

Uaru wrote: »

Fact is, is that people are going to drive unaccompanied because it is impractical to have someone with you all the time. I'm 29 and have drove motorbikes for over 6 years and have no intention of asking my mates to drive to my house so we can go out in the car while I'm learning. The guards don't care either way so I know there won't be an issue.

Until you meet a Guard who's a professional and charges you with driving unaccompanied.
Until you have an accident - it might only be a small scratch - but if the Insurance company gets involved and they find out you drove unaccompanied they won't cover you.

Thats 2 ways to get caught I thought of in less than 30 seconds, there must be other ways out there. You're gambling your licence and an increase in your future insurance premiums every time you drive.

Uaru

The Guards really don't care. I've met two and have had mates stopped numerous times. As far as I'm aware my insurance would pay up.

You can make as many hypothetical arguments as you want but I wouldn't be able to learn to drive without doing it on my own. If I was living with my parents it may be a different story but that's not the case.

quietsailor

Uaru wrote: »

The Guards really don't care. I've met two and have had mates stopped numerous times. As far as I'm aware my insurance would pay up.

You can make as many hypothetical arguments as you want but I wouldn't be able to learn to drive without doing it on my own. If I was living with my parents it may be a different story but that's not the case.

There's been a post a few pages back (start reading at post #95) who pointed out that an insurance claim was being denied for driving unaccompanied.

More and more Guards are taking note of this/being forced to take note of unaccompanied drivers. Again you're gambling with your licence & future premiums.

As a side note, if an unaccompanied driver hits me I will not accept that the Insurance won't pay out because you're unaccompanied, I'll sue you through the small claims courts or whatever court it takes to get my car fixed, I obey the law why should you get a free pass to do whatever you like?

Uaru

My insurance will pay out and the guards don't care.

Want to go again?

creep

quietsailor wrote: »

There's been a post a few pages back (start reading at post #95) who pointed out that an insurance claim was being denied for driving unaccompanied.

More and more Guards are taking note of this/being forced to take note of unaccompanied drivers. Again you're gambling with your licence & future premiums.

As a side note, if an unaccompanied driver hits me I will not accept that the Insurance won't pay out because you're unaccompanied, I'll sue you through the small claims courts or whatever court it takes to get my car fixed, I obey the law why should you get a free pass to do whatever you like?

Good for you. Hopefully I wont hit you

quietsailor

Well of the two of us I have definitely no problems if stopped by a Guard and asked for my licence
You might or might not

My insurance will cover me if I have a crash
yours might or might not

so who of us has the least to worry about?? Because I certainly can "go again" as long as I need to, I simply have no worries about driving on the road.

Beyond the usual numpties that exist for everyone that is :eek:

Now I'm off home so I won't be back online until tomorrow night, have fun folks because neither side is going to sway the other

quietsailor

creep wrote: »

Good for you. Hopefully I wont hit you

That is indeed my hope every time I go out in the car - I hope I don't meet a numpty who feels the law doesn't apply to them,If I can avoid all of them I'm a happy man, If not **** happens and thats what the courts are for

creep

quietsailor wrote: »

That is indeed my hope every time I go out in the car - I hope I don't meet a numpty who feels the law doesn't apply to them,If I can avoid all of them I'm a happy man, If not **** happens and thats what the courts are for

Cool You seem to think all learners cant drive or something when nearly all accidents are caused by full license drivers who like to speed and drive dangerously

creep

quietsailor wrote: »

I'm afraid that while I'll feel sorry for you that he (your Dad) died it's not going to change my mind about driving on your own - how do you think your family will feel if you have a crash & are killed?

I was going home to see Dad before he went into Milford Hospice - cancer respite centre - when I got turned off the Cork/Limerick road & had to drive over the mountain, he died a few weeks later from pancreatic cancer - bastard of a thing.

And as for stress, it won't be shared equally, the accompanying driver will be getting most of it :eek: as we can read the road better and see the possible accidents occurring whereas inexperienced drivers can't.

"I don't have anyone who could come with me in the car" There is no-one at all in your life, no friend, no family member, no neighbour who has a full licence????? Thats not believable, no-one can be that cut off from life

You seem to think that every learner driver on the road is going to crash or soemthing when over 95% of crashes are caused by full license drivers. Having a pink license doesn't automatically make you a good or safe driver. I've been driving on the provisional doing 400KM a week for the last two years. Does this make me an unsafe and inexperienced driver. Give me a break.

Fluorescence

creep wrote: »

You seem to think that every learner driver on the road is going to crash or soemthing when over 95% of crashes are caused by full license drivers. Having a pink license doesn't automatically make you a good or safe driver. I've been driving on the provisional doing 400KM a week for the last two years. Does this make me an unsafe and inexperienced driver. Give me a break.

Do your test. Prove your prowess. Simple.

creep

Fluorescence wrote: »

Do your test. Prove your prowess. Simple.

Full license drivers stop speeding and using mobile phones when driving and learn how to use indicators and the correct lanes to use. Maybe then the roads would be safer. Ye are the cause of accidents. SIMPLE.

Fluorescence

creep wrote: »

Full license drivers stop speeding and using mobile phones when driving and learn how to use indicators and the correct lanes to use. Maybe then the roads would be safer. SIMPLE.

The only thing you can control is your own driving and road behaviour. Why wouldn't you try to get your full license after 2 years of such extensive driving experience?

Stop trying to deflect by focusing your mind on what other drivers are doing wrong. Why not try concentrating on what you can do right.

creep

Fluorescence wrote: »

The only thing you can control is your own driving and road behaviour. Why wouldn't you try to get your full license after 2 years of such extensive driving experience?

Stop trying to deflect by focusing your mind on what other drivers are doing wrong. Why not try concentrating on what you can do right.

Simply because I couldn't be bothered wasting my time doing 12 lessons. Passing a test does not automatically make you a safe driver and I feel its stupid to think otherwise.

Fluorescence

creep wrote: »

Simply because I couldn't be bothered wasting my time doing 12 lessons. Passing a test does not automatically make you a safe driver and I feel its stupid to think otherwise.

Says it all, really.

Don't think either of us are going to convince the other, tbh.

creep

Fluorescence wrote: »

Says it all, really.

Don't think either of us are going to convince the other, tbh.

If thats ur opinion I respect it. I will get them done eventually when I move up to a higher powered car like a 2ltr or jeep because my insurance would triple

Sheldons Brain

This is the usual nonsense here, somebody somewhere with a full licence did something and so that entitles unproven drivers to ignore the law, even though of course the two things are not related.

Hopefully the authorities will eventually get a handle on this problem with zero tolerance policy.

creep

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

This is the usual nonsense here, somebody somewhere with a full licence did something and so that entitles unproven drivers to ignore the law, even though of course the two things are not related.

Hopefully the authorities will eventually get a handle on this problem with zero tolerance policy.

I Hope people who speed and drive dangerously have there licenses taking off them. Hopefully a zero tolerance problem happens. Speed is the cause of nearly all accidents. Learner drivers arn't a hazard compared to people who speed

quietsailor

creep wrote: »

Cool You seem to think all learners cant drive or something when nearly all accidents are caused by full license drivers who like to speed and drive dangerously

Nope. Completely the opposite which you'd know if you'd read the thread - I posted that I believe ALL drivers should have mandatory training every ten years.

creep

quietsailor wrote: »

Nope. Completely the opposite which you'd know if you'd read the thread - I posted that I believe ALL drivers should have mandatory training every ten years.

That would be swell

ardmacha

There is a ridiculous sense of entitlement in some of the posters in this thread. A licence has to be earned by showing that you can drive. End of.

Hopefully a zero tolerance problem happens.

Indeed. Zero tolerance in respect in the law, not in respect of people's own defintion that they are "not a hazard!.

I can't tell you why

There are certain situations that the Gardaí will have zero tolerance for. If for example, the Gardaí caught a learner driver driving unaccompanied, without L plates and breaking a road traffic law. A Garda could impound that vehicle and the learner could have their permit taken before they even get a full licence.
To be honest it's not a zero tolerance case. But more an amalgamation of three offence, which is enough for a learner to loose their licence/permit. More likely to happen when the Gardaí see a young male in a higher powered vehicle, say 2lt.

I can't tell you why

creep wrote: »

You seem to think that every learner driver on the road is going to crash or soemthing when over 95% of crashes are caused by full license drivers. Having a pink license doesn't automatically make you a good or safe driver. I've been driving on the provisional doing 400KM a week for the last two years. Does this make me an unsafe and inexperienced driver. Give me a break.

It makes you an experienced driver who breaks the law every day. Safe or unsafe cannot be quantified by the amount of driving one does. A test proves that at one time a person was able to drive properly. Fully licenced or learner a person can choose to ignore road safety law and drive dangerously or not.
If you are able to pass a test will you ignore the road safety laws, get a big car and be a dangerous driver? If you currently break the licencing law are you breaking other road safety law each day?
Apply for the test. Get your full licence. It will be one thing to strike off the to do list.

Media999

ardmacha wrote: »

There is a ridiculous sense of entitlement in some of the posters in this thread. A licence has to be earned by showing that you can drive. End of.



Indeed. Zero tolerance in respect in the law, not in respect of people's own defintion that they are "not a hazard!.

Then why did the laws only come in recently?

Did you do the 12 lessons?

ardmacha

Then why did the laws only come in recently?

There is nothing recent about the general regime for L drivers, it was established in the Road Traffic Act, 1961.

The 12 lesson law is more recent and is justified as professional instruction to superior to amateurs doing it , both in the learner learning faster and in safety for other qualified drivers on the road, and because a significant proportion of people continue to fail their driving test.

Media999

ardmacha wrote: »

There is nothing recent about the general regime for L drivers, it was established in the Road Traffic Act, 1961.

The 12 lesson law is more recent and is justified as professional instruction to superior to amateurs doing it , both in the learner learning faster and in safety for other qualified drivers on the road, and because a significant proportion of people continue to fail their driving test.

This was the point the OP was trying to make before editing their post.

People who didnt have to do all this talking down to learners and making them out to be irresponsible.

Im an older driver myself not a learner but it still think the whole lot is a money scam using safety as an excuse.

The older system was good enough for us but suddenly it doesnt work when their is money to be made.

miss no stars

Media999 wrote: »

This was the point the OP was trying to make before editing their post.

People who didnt have to do all this talking down to learners and making them out to be irresponsible.

Im an older driver myself not a learner but it still think the whole lot is a money scam using safety as an excuse.

The older system was good enough for us but suddenly it doesnt work when their is money to be made.

Were roads as busy and did motorways even exist in Ireland 30 years ago? No, they weren't and didn't. As for it being good enough for your generation, have you SEEN the driving antics of some people?

Example 1: A friend of my mother, didn't realize that she could pull into the junction when there was a full green light and she was turning right. Missed plenty of gaps. Bad driver and that kind of crap (which I still see FREQUENTLY) on the roads wouldn't be going on if they'd been properly taught to drive.

Example 2: Using the handbrake to slow the car down during normal driving. Wouldn't be tolerated by an ADI.

ardmacha

Media999 wrote:

People who didnt have to do all this talking down to learners and making them out to be irresponsible.

Judging by this thread some of them are irresponsible.

Media999 wrote:

The older system was good enough for us but suddenly it doesnt work when their is money to be made.

It seems the older system didn't deliver good drivers, as has been pointed out many times in this thread. Many are not, of course, but regulations address the reckless.

Professional instruction can only help your driving and if you are going to be driving for 60 years afterwards the cost is neither here nor there in the overall scheme of things, it will be repaid many times over in lower insurance/repairs/hospitals as driving standards improve.


Everyone thinks there are great and don't need any control, bankers as well as drivers.
"While not wishing to condone the errors of the past, Fitzpatrick is worried that over-regulation and an over-emphasis on compliance may damage the entrepreneurial culture in Ireland. "You’ve got to be a fool sometimes, you’ve gotto be naive, you’ve got to be innocent to actually take on the mountain, but you can move mountains with people. Now wouldn’t it be disastrous if we had an environment where people just couldn’t try it, where people have done it in the past"