do you think the present law on learner permits is hypocritical

Media999

miss no stars wrote: »

Were roads as busy and did motorways even exist in Ireland 30 years ago? No, they weren't and didn't. As for it being good enough for your generation, have you SEEN the driving antics of some people?

Example 1: A friend of my mother, didn't realize that she could pull into the junction when there was a full green light and she was turning right. Missed plenty of gaps. Bad driver and that kind of crap (which I still see FREQUENTLY) on the roads wouldn't be going on if they'd been properly taught to drive.

Example 2: Using the handbrake to slow the car down during normal driving. Wouldn't be tolerated by an ADI.

learners arent allowed on Motorways and who the hell lifts the handbrake to slow the car down?

Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree that something needs to be done but im saying its a money scam the way they do it.

If safety was the priority they would do whatever it takes to reduce the waiting times for test. Reduce the cost of lessons. Stop increasing costs of everything they possible can and hit hard people who do break the law.

Look at it from a young persons point of view. On the dole because there is no work. Cant get to a job that isnt in walking distance because they cant afford a car. Accidents are way down yet insurance is way up?? Imagine being 17 just graduating secondary school and having to deal with this **** and then being told its for "safety".

Over 500 quid before you even pay for a car, car insurance and tax. How the **** can people think its anything but a money scam.

mitosis

creep wrote: »

I've been driving over 2 years on a provisional with no L plates displayed doing around 400KM a week. I find the danger on the road is not the learner drivers but the people who speed, overtake in dangerous areas and do not use their indicators. If a person feels comfortable to drive then no harm driving.

How do you know they are not learners also, who have their plates down?

miss no stars

Media999 wrote: »

learners arent allowed on Motorways and who the hell lifts the handbrake to slow the car down?

Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree that something needs to be done but im saying its a money scam the way they do it.

Apologies, I should have made it clearer. Learners aren't allowed on motorways, indeed, but the minute they have a full license they are. Hopefully with good training with a professional, good driving behaviour is instinctive and they drive safely on the motorway and can deal with motorway junctions properly. Otherwise you can have the scenario of a learner practicing the test route in a rural area, driving it perfectly in the test, but with no ability to navigate a 3 lane roundabout.

Regarding the handbrake, it's a hangover from days when all the brakes were drum brakes and the handbrake was used to "spare the front brakes"... That's not saying that people now know that that's why it was done - it's something that can be picked up on while sitting driving with someone and if that someone is a person the learner trusts, they might end up assuming it's normal driving practice and they start doing it as well. If the person in question is teaching the learnr to drive, they won't see anything wrong with it. The learner might do a pretest and the instructor might tell them not to do that during the test, but it's a behaviour that's well established at that point and regarded as "grand". It's something that's really very bad for the car and a habit that would be stamped on through regular lessons with an ADI.

So the point I'm making is that these are examples from people I know in real life. These are things that people do. They're bad driving practices. They might not cause a crash (although the handbrake wearing out might...), but it's still not good driving. Just because it was overlooked in the past doesn't mean it should still be overlooked. It's more that people can see how inadequate the system was, can see how much more traffic there is on the roads (as well as a lot of traffic moving at very high speeds) than there was in the past and saying "hey, being inexperienced on your own is too unsafe these days. The old system wasn't good enough then because the result is so many rubbish drivers on the road, it's certainly not good enough now with tougher conditions, things NEED to change".

creep

Media999 wrote: »

learners arent allowed on Motorways and who the hell lifts the handbrake to slow the car down?

Not sure what point your trying to make. I agree that something needs to be done but im saying its a money scam the way they do it.

If safety was the priority they would do whatever it takes to reduce the waiting times for test. Reduce the cost of lessons. Stop increasing costs of everything they possible can and hit hard people who do break the law.

Look at it from a young persons point of view. On the dole because there is no work. Cant get to a job that isnt in walking distance because they cant afford a car. Accidents are way down yet insurance is way up?? Imagine being 17 just graduating secondary school and having to deal with this **** and then being told its for "safety".

Over 500 quid before you even pay for a car, car insurance and tax. How the **** can people think its anything but a money scam.

Valid point, how do you expect young people/learner driver to get to and from work. It is easy in Dublin to do but outside of Dublin it is impossible. Should they give up there employment?

ardmacha

Valid point, how do you expect young people/learner driver to get to and from work. It is easy in Dublin to do but outside of Dublin it is impossible. Should they give up there employment?

Jobs are not the point. If someone is going to drive there they must show that they are competant. Whether that lack of competance comes from inexperience or some disability is neither here nor there, they should not be on the road unless they can show that they can drive. This thread is 17 year old and 17 year old that, these people are going to be driving for 70 years and the cost and time spent learning is not at all disproportionate.

livemusic4life

ardmacha wrote: »

Jobs are not the point. If someone is going to drive there they must show that they are competant. Whether that lack of competance comes from inexperience or some disability is neither here nor there, they should not be on the road unless they can show that they can drive. This thread is 17 year old and 17 year old that, these people are going to be driving for 70 years and the cost and time spent learning is not at all disproportionate.

agreed. if they don't have a job then they save with the credit union and get a loan. 17 year olds now expect everything handed to them on a plate. I got nothing without working and saving for it. Even now, I'm out of work after serious back problems, because i save my few spare euro regularly, i was easily able to get a loan from the credit union. Good instructors are expensive, better to pay the extra money and be taught properly. If it takes time to save it up, its not gonna kill them.

No Pants

Media999 wrote: »

4 bloody months waiting where i am. 1 slip up and its the back of the queue for you. Knowing that makes people nervous.

Really? The RSA seem to think it's less than 3 months everywhere. And it is possible to get a test date sooner.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Test-Waiting-Times/

I can't tell you why

You don't need a car to get every possible job. Sure it helps for many. But before I had a car I cycled over 20k to a physically demanding job and the same home. Others travelled further by bikes etc. Others could get two buses to get there.

Others simply moved to that town. This is always an option if the work is full time.

There are always options.

I can't tell you why

The compulsory lessons is not a money making scam. The RSA put things in place for road safety. They generally make a big loss on everything they do. The RSA like many government departments spend money wastefully and frivolously. They tie themselves up in red tape. This I must say, is not the fault of the average public servant. But the fault of those much higher up.

The RSA make a massive loss with the rollout of EDT lessons and new driving licences. They are not doing it for the benifit of driving instructors, for whom they care very little for.

The cost of driving lessons is derived by a free market. People will pay more for the service they perceive to be better. But the basic rate is based on the cost of running the business plus the instructors value of their time. Money making scam, its not. There are plenty of ex instructors heading for social well fair queues in recent years.

I can't tell you why

As to whether the laws are hypocritical; not really, but not far off. At the end of the day, THAT'S PROGRESS. Things can't stay the same, simply because that's how it always was.

Whether the public likes it or not the actions of the RSA are to improve road safety. Everything they do will annoy someone; learners, instructors, publicans, taxi drivers, lorry drivers, etc. All will have their issues. But far more often then not it each action will contribute to someones life being saved. And that is almost the sole objective of the RSA.

Yamanoto

ann13 wrote: »

no point debating with a bunch of know it all stick to the law lick arses who make me feel now as if i'm not paranoid enough that I am going to kill someone with bad driving thanks

Chucking your toys outta the pram does you no favours tbh.

Accusations of hypocrisy contained within your original rant (pre-edit) just don't hold water - attitudes to road safety have shifted markedly across developed nations over the past 30 years. Much of what was considered best practise back in the day is now viewed as rudimentary, naive and ultimately unsound.

I've quite a bit of sympathy for the travails learners have to go through to get onto the roads today. Without doubt, it's a more demanding & convoluted process than it used to be. But changes which are effected periodically are not done simply to make peoples lives harder or part them from their cash. It's safety that underpins these changes & that's as it should be. It's also worth noting that with regard to learners driving unaccompanied, it was Brussels who forced the Governments hand, with a fairly explicit threat of going all legal on their ass...

Commissioner Barrot said: "The Irish provisions authorising the driving of vehicles by unaccompanied persons who have not passed the national driving test or have attempted but failed that test would not appear to comply with the community legislation.

"The commission will examine the factual and legal situation with the Irish authorities and, if necessary, will take ... measures to ensure correct application of community law."

thesimpsons

No Pants wrote: »

Really? The RSA seem to think it's less than 3 months everywhere. And it is possible to get a test date sooner.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Test-Waiting-Times/

while the test centre in Limerick says 10 weeks on that website - son only applied 4 wks ago and his test is next week. I was even given an earlier option with a choice of 2 dates if he wanted when I phoned up to query something.

I can't tell you why

ann13 wrote: »

no point debating with a bunch of know it all stick to the law lick arses who make me feel now as if i'm not paranoid enough that I am going to kill someone with bad driving thanks

It is hypocritical to start a debate and then change your original post to an insult because people don't agree with you.
Don't be paranoid but the laws that the Gardai use task them with prosecuting you. I hope you don't kill, injure or crash into anyone or their property.

No Pants

thesimpsons wrote: »

while the test centre in Limerick says 10 weeks on that website - son only applied 4 wks ago and his test is next week. I was even given an earlier option with a choice of 2 dates if he wanted when I phoned up to query something.

It was the same for Raheny when I did my test a few years ago. The website said that there was a 2 - 3 month delay, but I had a response in just over a week and a test date booked within a month. If someone made some calls, they'd no doubt get one quicker again.

This excuse about test wait times always reminds me of the line about bank robbery, I think it was in Father Ted, "It was my money Father, I just didn't want to fill out the forms."

Sam Kade

The op's quote in post number2 sounds like an audition for the X factor :rolleyes:

Uaru

Yamanoto wrote: »

Chucking your toys outta the pram does you no favours tbh.

Accusations of hypocrisy contained within your original rant (pre-edit) just don't hold water - attitudes to road safety have shifted markedly across developed nations over the past 30 years. Much of what was considered best practise back in the day is now viewed as rudimentary, naive and ultimately unsound.

I've quite a bit of sympathy for the travails learners have to go through to get onto the roads today. Without doubt, it's a more demanding & convoluted process than it used to be. But changes which are effected periodically are not done simply to make peoples lives harder or part them from their cash. It's safety that underpins these changes & that's as it should be. It's also worth noting that with regard to learners driving unaccompanied, it was Brussels who forced the Governments hand, with a fairly explicit threat of going all legal on their ass...

So by your reasoning anyone who passed the test the old way is possibly in adequately trained and quite possibly a danger. All licences should be revoked and anyone who has not completed 12 lessons or a theory test put off the road until they complete the new and improved training. Lets do it!

Sam Kade

bitburger wrote: »

I drove around for around 4 years unaccompanied, got my license last year, no guard ever got onto me for it, stupid thing is im going onto my 4th motorbike permit now and i never have or will have to be accompanied as it is illegal for me to carry a pillion. out of all of my friends who now have a full license the ones that drove around unaccompanied were the ones who passed their tests on the first attempt,

does the qualified driver have to be awake and completley sober?

Really have you any proof of this?

I can't tell you why

On the sub-thread of waiting times. The quoted times on the site are an average of the previous year, rather then a future estimate. Apply to take a cancellation and it is always shorter. How much shorter varies.
Typical / average wait is 10 weeks.
Cancellation list commomly 4 weeks.
Shortest wait I can remember was 5 DAYS, for a customer of mine, earlier this year.

Yamanoto

Yep, 'cos ensuring all future changes are applied and enforced retrospectively is precisely what I said.

Jazz deduction, niiiiice.

kunst nugget

creep wrote: »

I Hope people who speed and drive dangerously have there licenses taking off them. Hopefully a zero tolerance problem happens. Speed is the cause of nearly all accidents. Learner drivers arn't a hazard compared to people who speed

I'm trying to wrap my head around this but I'm failing because it seems to be a black hole of stupidity.

If a zero tolerance meant punishing everybody breaking the law severely, wouldn't that include you?

Days 298

This thread is a great read. I propose scrapping the RSA and replacing it with the Boards.ie Learners.

Steps to get a full licence and be certified safe on the road in the Republic of Ireland.
-Pass the theory test.
Wait! Thats a money scam too!
-L plates
-Lessons
-Pass test

-Take two passport photos.
-Fill out form for licence.
-Apply for licence.

The end.

Welcome to the 1960's! Down a few pints and we'll go for a spin!

Some learners are very arrogant about their driving here.:rolleyes: Going so far as to attack every other driver bar themselves. Pass the test and move on with your lives and for some do the lessons for start! Do you plan on being a learner for your entire life?!


The only thing to get annoyed about is that the general attitude to learners driving unaccompanied is changing year on year and soon the penalty point system as well.

creep

If you feel that strongly about it you do the 12 lessons.

doriansmith

creep wrote: »

If you feel that strongly about it you do the 12 lessons.

You seem to assume that no one else here ever did lessons. I learned to drive last year. The EDT lessons didn't apply to me as I'd had a provisional before (never used it) but I still got lessons anyway. I probably did about 18 lessons in total & passed my test within 6 months.
I never drove unaccompanied while on my provisional. Get some lessons & a sit a test 6 months later, it's not rocket science!

Some amount of people in here with massive chips on their shoulders. The rules are there to make the roads safer, simple as.

creep

doriansmith wrote: »

You seem to assume that no one else here ever did lessons. I learned to drive last year. The EDT lessons didn't apply to me as I'd had a provisional before (never used it) but I still got lessons anyway. I probably did about 18 lessons in total & passed my test within 6 months.
I never drove unaccompanied while on my provisional. Get some lessons & a sit a test 6 months later, it's not rocket science!

Some amount of people in here with massive chips on their shoulders. The rules are there to make the roads safer, simple as.

Good for you, If you want to wait to do the test before driving on your own. I couldn't be bothered as well as most other provisional license holders.

Media999

No Pants wrote: »

Really? The RSA seem to think it's less than 3 months everywhere. And it is possible to get a test date sooner.
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/The-Driving-Test/Test-Waiting-Times/

100 % its 4 months in Waterford. Friend booked the other day. Exactly what your one on the phone said give me anytime after 4 months and its free. Obviously different in other parts of the country.

No Pants

creep wrote: »

I couldn't be bothered

Here's the truth. All the other stuff was nonsense. The law is inconvenient to you, as is the safety of other road users.

creep

No Pants wrote: »

Here's the truth. All the other stuff was nonsense. The law is inconvenient to you, as is the safety of other road users.

Having a pink license does not automatically make you a safe driver. It's quite naive to think that. I am a safe driver. I got lessons off friends and family as I couldn't be bothered paying 30 quid a lesson. When I eventually move up to a 2LTR hopefully in the next six months I'll have to get the license as my insurance will triple. I probably won't even need to do the lessons anyway, just pay the 350 to a guy who will say I did them. Free money for him though which pisses me off but oh well.

Media999

Darragh D ADI wrote: »

On the sub-thread of waiting times. The quoted times on the site are an average of the previous year, rather then a future estimate. Apply to take a cancellation and it is always shorter. How much shorter varies.
Typical / average wait is 10 weeks.
Cancellation list commomly 4 weeks.
Shortest wait I can remember was 5 DAYS, for a customer of mine, earlier this year.

I was wondering why you where being so defensive about people being forced to do 12 lessons(300 quid) until you mentioned you are an instructor.

Bit biased no?

And this crap about government losing money by charging 85 for a test and 55 for a bit of plastic. Wheres the figures for that?

So thats 85 quid x probably 4 an hour and 9 hours a day = 3060.

Dublin thats probably 10k a day.

So a two tester driving center makes 3k a day just off the tests. Months of a queue so no shortage of customers.

So wheres the 3k a day going that the government are making a net loss?

Sheldons Brain

All law-breakers presumably think their breaking the law is justified. The challenge is for the law to have effective enforcement and a lot more could be done.

No Pants

creep wrote: »

Having a pink license does not automatically make you a safe driver.

How would you know? You don't have one.

creep wrote: »

I couldn't be bothered