do you think the present law on learner permits is hypocritical

creep

No Pants wrote: »

How would you know? You don't have one.

I know what the test entails of. I see crazy drivers on the road everyday so yea I know it does not automatically make you a safe driver. Driving 400-500KM I see a lot of crazy stuff on the roads.

No Pants

creep wrote: »

I know what the test entails of. I see crazy drivers on the road everyday so yea I know it does not automatically make you a safe driver. Driving 400-500KM I see a lot of crazy stuff on the roads.

They could all be learners like you.

creep

No Pants wrote: »

They could all be learners like you.

Yes I'm sure they are :rolleyes: . All learners do 160KM on the motorway and don't know how to use their indicators or drive right up someones arse on the M50 waiting to overtake

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

Having a pink license does not automatically make you a safe driver. It's quite naive to think that. I am a safe driver. I got lessons off friends and family as I couldn't be bothered paying 30 quid a lesson. When I eventually move up to a 2LTR hopefully in the next six months I'll have to get the license as my insurance will triple. I probably won't even need to do the lessons anyway, just pay the 350 to a guy who will say I did them. Free money for him though which pisses me off but oh well.

If you're going to spend the money, why are you so opposed to getting the lessons you're paying for? Really, really odd.

Yamanoto

creep wrote: »

Having a pink license does not automatically make you a safe driver. It's quite naive to think that. I am a safe driver. I got lessons off friends and family....

What a 'pink license' does do is confirm that you were objectively & independently assessed by the body tasked with road safety in Ireland and found to be competent enough to operate a vehicle on a public road - it's no more and no less than that.

By no means is it a guarantee that you won't behave like an absolute t1t when you get behind the wheel - that's an impossible ask as well you know. Also, what you believe the quality of your driving to be is ultimately irrelevant, as your opinion is afforded no credibility and carries no weight under law.

Sheldons Brain

All learners do 160KM on the motorway and don't know how to use their indicators or drive right up someones arse on the M50 waiting to overtake

All learners do not drive badly, but many more do than more experienced drivers. That is why we have a tuition and testing regime.

Testing learners is independent of bad driving on the M50, which should also be addressed.

The J Stands for Jay

What"s with all these people thinking that not being allowed to drive unaccompanied being a new law?

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

If you're going to spend the money, why are you so opposed to getting the lessons you're paying for? Really, really odd.

Because I couldn't be bothered. Sitting in a car and telling me things I already know. Check your mirrors, look out the back window when reversing, check your blindspots when pulling off, keep up with the speed limit, keep out a certain distance of parked cars, look all around you at the traffic lights blah blah blah, keep eyes open for junction in housing estates. 12 hours of ****e where I will learn nothing.

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

Because I couldn't be bothered. Sitting in a car and telling me things I already know. Check your mirrors, look out the back window when reversing, check your blindspots when pulling off, keep up with the speed limit, keep out a certain distance of parked cars, look all around you at the traffic lights blah blah blah, keep eyes open for junction in housing estates. 12 hours of ****e where I will learn nothing.

Do you think driving instructors are thick? I imagine they'll watch your driving for a bit, if you've nothing wrong with the lesson objective then they're not gong to sit telling you how to find the biting point of the clutch. On the other hand, you might actually learn something! The horror! Imagine picking up tips on better driving practice? Imagine covering some of the test ground with someone whose clients frequently take the test there and know all the hints? What a waste of time and money, as you've said yourself there is NOTHING whatsoever short of perfect with your driving so why bother? Except that I've yet to meet someone who has perfect driving...

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

Do you think driving instructors are thick? I imagine they'll watch your driving for a bit, if you've nothing wrong with the lesson objective then they're not gong to sit telling you how to find the biting point of the clutch. On the other hand, you might actually learn something! The horror! Imagine picking up tips on better driving practice? Imagine covering some of the test ground with someone whose clients frequently take the test there and know all the hints? What a waste of time and money, as you've said yourself there is NOTHING whatsoever short of perfect with your driving so why bother? Except that I've yet to meet someone who has perfect driving...

You've just met someone online. Me

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

You've just met someone online. Me

Very real proof that you're a danger to everyone.

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

Very real proof that you're a danger to everyone.

I'm a danger to know one. I am a good and safe driver. I know a couple of people with full licenses who are afraid to drive the M50 and shouldn't be on the road as I've been in the car with them and are totally and utterly a road hazard. It's easy to pass a pre-defined test, especially outside of Dublin.

miss no stars

creep wrote: »

I'm a danger to know one. I am a good and safe driver. I know a couple of people with full licenses who are afraid to drive the M50 and shouldn't be on the road as I've been in the car with them and are totally and utterly a road hazard. It's easy to pass a pre-defined test, especially outside of Dublin.

Being a safe driver involves acknowledging the things that can affect your driving. Such as a lack of proper instruction. That you think you're a perfect driver just shows you're arrogant about your ability and unaware of your own problems.

The only way you can prove yourself to be an excellent driver (nobody is perfect by virtue of being human) is to go and do a fault free test. Do come back though if you manage it.

creep

miss no stars wrote: »

Being a safe driver involves acknowledging the things that can affect your driving. Such as a lack of proper instruction. That you think you're a perfect driver just shows you're arrogant about your ability and unaware of your own problems.

The only way you can prove yourself to be an excellent driver (nobody is perfect by virtue of being human) is to go and do a fault free test. Do come back though if you manage it.

How come I can drive better than some of my friends then who are a complete and utter hazard on the road and if we need to go up/down the M50 home for the weekend I have to drive. I hate getting into the car with them. Like I said passing a simple test does not make you a good driver. They only recently got their licenses in the last year and did the test in Kilkenny.

Obviously saying I was a perfect driver was a joke. I know I am a better driver than them as they can barely park a car. Sure doing a test where you have to glance left and right and look in your mirrors a few times makes you a good and safe driver. Give me a break,

Sheldons Brain

How come I can drive better than some of my friends

We're really not interested in your own assessment of your driving, go and do the test.

creep

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

We're really not interested in your own assessment of your driving, go and do the test.

I'll do it when I'm good and ready but right now I couldn't be bothered. I hope I don't crash into a big tree in the mean time.

Yamanoto

creep wrote: »

Sure doing a test where you have to glance left and right and look in your mirrors a few times makes you a good and safe driver. Give me a break,

Jaysus :pac:

creep

Hopefully I don't cause this tomorrow. I might cause it though because I don't have a magic piece of pink paper in my car.

creep

creep wrote: »

Because I couldn't be bothered. Sitting in a car and telling me things I already know. Check your mirrors, look out the back window when reversing, check your blindspots when pulling off, keep up with the speed limit, keep out a certain distance of parked cars, look all around you at the traffic lights blah blah blah, keep eyes open for junction in housing estates, reactions to hazards, changing lanes correctly, using indicators correctly blah blah blah. 12 hours of ****e where I will learn nothing.

As I posted earlier I know what it entails

Cedrus

creep wrote: »

Because I couldn't be bothered. ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I will learn nothing.

Never a truer thing said, I fear.

I can't tell you why

Media999 wrote: »

I was wondering why you where being so defensive about people being forced to do 12 lessons(300 quid) until you mentioned you are an instructor.

Bit biased no?

And this crap about government losing money by charging 85 for a test and 55 for a bit of plastic. Wheres the figures for that?

So thats 85 quid x probably 4 an hour and 9 hours a day = 3060.

Dublin thats probably 10k a day.

So a two tester driving center makes 3k a day just off the tests. Months of a queue so no shortage of customers.

So wheres the 3k a day going that the government are making a net loss?

I try not be biased. But to be realistic I probably will be. On the other hand it could be termed as passionate about road safety ( But that does sound very cheesey ).
I have MANY criticisms of the EDT program and the RSA. But I do genuinely believe its prime objective is to make the roads safer.
The ADI in my name is the qualification; Approved Driving Instructor. It may not be a title everyone will know. But I do have it there to try and be open about who I am talking as.
As regards the non profit making aspect; your maths if fair and valid. But it is the expenditure for that income that causes the loss. It's a rant I've gone on too many times. Ultimately the RSA and the government can always manage to run things at a loss. A different example is Dublin Bus. Thousands of paying customers hour. But still makes huge losses.

Media999

Only way they run a loss is if there being ripped off. Dublin bus has serious overheads with buses, drivers, insurance etc.

I seriously cant think of any possible way the testing centers are running at a net loss. How can a testing center have over 3k expenses a day? Two fellas in an office using other people petrol.

I know civil servants have it good with pay but there not taking over a grand each a day home.

Someone, Somewhere is making serious profits from driving tests and im sure the figures are published somewhere.

Anyone here have exact figures on how much the government milks off learner drivers each year?

No Pants

creep wrote: »

All learners do 160KM on the motorway and don't know how to use their indicators or drive right up someones arse on the M50 waiting to overtake

I've read this a couple of times over the last few days. My experience on motorways in this country suggests that driving consistently at 120km/h will result in you travelling faster than the majority of other drivers. There will be drivers going faster, maybe 130 - 140, but 160 and above is rare.

The above is based upon my infrequent use of the M1, M50, M4, M6, M7 & M8.

Motor-Ed

Media999 wrote: »

Only way they run a loss is if there being ripped off. Dublin bus has serious overheads with buses, drivers, insurance etc.

I seriously cant think of any possible way the testing centers are running at a net loss. How can a testing center have over 3k expenses a day? Two fellas in an office using other people petrol.

I know civil servants have it good with pay but there not taking over a grand each a day home.

Someone, Somewhere is making serious profits from driving tests and im sure the figures are published somewhere.

Anyone here have exact figures on how much the government milks off learner drivers each year?

Your maths is flawed.
A tester does approx 8 tests per day by 2 that's 16 per day at €85 is €1360
Your costing didn't include running of premises and the admin staff who set up and schedule the tests, the supervisors etc etc

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ardmacha

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This improvement in road safety has been brought about by a continual progression in the measures used. Continually improving roads, continually improving cars and continually improving drivers. This is not a process that should stop. Saying that your grandad did not do a driving test, and didn't wear a set belt is not a very convincing reason for not doing these things today.

It's common to see beginning drivers approach the EDT with the attitude of "This is pointless! Waste of money! I know it all already!" Experienced drivers and advanced driving experts will tell you that you can never learn enough about safer driving.

I'm sure everyone could learn something from instruction, although the inexperienced have a lot more to learn than most. I'd favour a retest every decade when licences are renewed.

No Pants

ardmacha wrote: »

I'd favour a retest every decade when licences are renewed.

I'm surprised that it hasn't been introduced already.

Is this in place anywhere else or are there any reasonable arguments against it?

Days 298

Creep can you name any European country where your current situation would be deemed okay. You've nothing to show for your 2 years of driving not even the flimsy stamped log book, the rise in your odometer can hardly be counted by the RSA as a Certificate of Competency. The only thing that an observer can say is you've passed an electronic multiple choice quiz. That is it. Its one thing to drive unaccompanied sure most people did it, do it. Its a completely other thing to believe you've the right to do it. You'll find very few people with your beliefs. You dont even have L plates up. Don you think other drivers at least have the right to know there is an learner in the car ahead of them. Most learners I know when I discuss how they are getting on with driving say they drive unaccompanied and there reason is "sure the guards don't care". Not one of them will say they've the right or they should be allowed, they see a weakness in the current system they are exploiting.

The process for punishing a learner is stupidly complex compared to say speeding or mobile phone use and involves a summons and a courtdate. That is changing. The penalty point system is being changed so it will be a points offence. If I were you Id try to get get out of the learner permit bracket and get a licence. The days of unaccompanied learners drivers are sadly drawing to a close. 2 years time and after a few clampdowns with points and the learner driver driving unaccompanied will be a thing of the past.

Drive away but don't expect many sympathetic ears. Your going to have to spend 12 hours with an ADI eventually and you will have to seat a test to renew your permit.

But out of interest what system do you propose? You talk of fully licenced drivers driving at speed and with mobile phones. As you've said holding the licence does not make you a safe driver. The difference between learners and fully licenced is the driving test so I presume we shall scrap that? So tell us how would you ascertain that a driver is of a standard to hold a Driving Licence. Maybe an odometer check every year?

creep

I don't consider myself a learner driver.

Media999

Motor-Ed wrote: »

Your maths is flawed.
A tester does approx 8 tests per day by 2 that's 16 per day at €85 is €1360
Your costing didn't include running of premises and the admin staff who set up and schedule the tests, the supervisors etc etc

8 30 min tests is a full days work? No wonder most look like they spend the other 4 hours eating Donuts.

Ok so 8160 a week Gross for the smallest 2 tester centers.

You talking 50 a day for call center staff assuming 1 agent for 2 test centres @ 32 5 min calls a day. lets say 100 a day for the testers

Thats 150 a day in wages.

So 7k a week left to run a small building??

Still think they operate at a loss?

And thats only 2 testers. Id assume some in Dublin have 10 on the go.