Is Iran currently rushing to build a Nuclear weapon? Opinions

Conas

Jonny7 wrote: »

There's criticising the administration/policies.. but personifying a country/race as above is borderline mentalist stuff, not to mention the ridiculous emotional assertions

Haven't a clue what you mean by this statement, it's well known fact that the Israelis give everyone a horrid time. Look at the way the Israeli police arrested an American teenage Jew, who was protesting peacefully for the Palestinians, they threw him around, and drove his face into the ground well arresting him. A group of thugs went into a shop in Israel, and lashed out at a harmless African who was shopping. Not to mention at IDF kicking the crap out of Palestinian CHILDREN, and arresting them, and subjecting their to abuse, blindfolding there eyes. Just remember the IDF control what gets released to the media, and what doesn't. Then there's Ireland's history with Israel, the horrid way they treated are Army personal who were out there was disgusting.

Like I said, how can anyone claim that it's the great beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east? American people who live outside of the fear bubble, and brainwashing of mainstream media, know Israel's true colours. Americans have been duped into believing that it embodies their values, and traditions, when it certainly does not.

Jonny7

Conas wrote: »

Haven't a clue what you mean by this statement, it's well known fact that the Israelis give everyone a horrid time. Look at the way the Israeli police arrested an American teenage Jew, who was protesting peacefully for the Palestinians, they threw him around, and drove his face into the ground well arresting him. A group of thugs went into a shop in Israel, and lashed out at a harmless African who was shopping. Not to mention at IDF kicking the crap out of Palestinian CHILDREN, and arresting them, and subjecting their to abuse, blindfolding there eyes. Just remember the IDF control what gets released to the media, and what doesn't. Then there's Ireland's history with Israel, the horrid way they treated are Army personal who were out there was disgusting.

Like I said, how can anyone claim that it's the great beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east? American people who live outside of the fear bubble, and brainwashing of mainstream media, know Israel's true colours. Americans have been duped into believing that it embodies their values, and traditions, when it certainly does not.

It comes across that you have some sort of belief that Israel (like a person) is "evil"

Just take out your references to Israel in the above and replace with Denmark

InTheTrees

Conas wrote: »

Like I said, how can anyone claim that it's the great beacon of freedom and democracy in the middle east?

So name another even slightly stable democratic country in the middle east then?

InTheTrees

Conas wrote: »

Americans have been duped into believing...

The USA has a larger Jewish population than Israel so support is pretty solid and unwavering.

If you feel you can convince Americans and israelis that if they relax their aggressive stance then their middle east neighbours will open their arms in friendship then best of luck to you.

You're going to point at Lebanon or egypt or syria and tell the israeli's they should be just like those places?

BuilderPlumber

Iran may yet have its worst ever president!! Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will have to be content in second place as poorest Iranian president as the one and only Bertie Ahern is in Tehran to give advice ...... and take over Iran's government!!!!

sin_city

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Whilst Iran has not been a directly aggressive nation throughout it's modern history, there are concerns, perhaps justified, that Iran will funnel nuclear material or weaponry to Hezbollah et al. Being Jihadi Boom Booms, Hezbollah et al might not show the same restraint that Iran would with such arms.

The real threat Iran has shown is by simply selling their oil in a currency other than the US dollar.

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

The real threat Iran has shown is by simply selling their oil in a currency other than the US dollar.

They are trading their oil in other currencies, and have been doing so for awhile.

OPEC trades with dollars so others follow suit, however it can be traded in other currencies

http://economics.about.com/od/pricesexchangerates/a/oil_and_dollars.htm

Here's the benefits and drawbacks of using Canadian dollars

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

They are trading their oil in other currencies, and have been doing so for awhile.

OPEC trades with dollars so others follow suit, however it can be traded in other currencies

http://economics.about.com/od/pricesexchangerates/a/oil_and_dollars.htm

Here's the benefits and drawbacks of using Canadian dollars

Ah that's great...also another drawback of not using the USD as seen by the former Iraqi regime is invasion and execution.

Are you really that naive to think that a country not using the USD doesn't really p!ss off the Yanks? :eek:

The decline of the USD is a signal for the decline of America just as the decline of the Pound Sterling was also a decline of the British Empire.

China now imports more oil than the US.

I expect China to make some agreement with Iran and perhaps Russia which will see the Saudi's dominance in the region also decline.

Everyone else has to buy US dollars....the US just prints them out of thin air....That's a neat trick to have and you wouldn't want to lose that power.

Canadian dollars....opps....If only Saddam used those instead of Euros. :rolleyes:

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

Ah that's great...also another drawback of not using the USD as seen by the former Iraqi regime is invasion and execution.

Not really, I doubt it was even taken into consideration.

Everyone else has to buy US dollars....the US just prints them out of thin air....That's a neat trick to have and you wouldn't want to lose that power.

It's not a "neat trick", it's a function of central banks all over the world.

sin_city

Jonny7 wrote: »

Not really, I doubt it was even taken into consideration.



It's not a "neat trick", it's a function of central banks all over the world.

Wrong..The US is the reserve currency so they can just print them...Everyone else cannot just print USD...only their Central Bank.

You doubt that it was taken into consideration????
So you think there are no consequences to using a non world reserve currency?

I guess you belived the WMD rubbish too?

Put down that book....what is it called? Gullible's Travels?

Jonny7

sin_city wrote: »

Wrong

Central banks can control money supply - "print money out of thin air as you put it" - it's a little more complex than that - this is what I am referring to

So you think there are no consequences to using a non world reserve currency?

Oil is traded in dollars because that's the accepted currency since the 70s. OPEC is the main reason for this.

I guess you belived the WMD rubbish too?

No, I marched against the Iraq war, any more assumptions you want to make?

BuilderPlumber

InTheTrees wrote: »

So name another even slightly stable democratic country in the middle east then?

Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, UAE, and Jordan are all relatively stable and democratic to some extent (none are perfect and all bar Turkey have a long, long road of reform ahead but at least all have moderate reformers in power at present and are moving in the right direction - and are certainly way ahead of the other warzones and absolute monarchies). Israel is not stable or democratic as long as the likes of Netanyahu and similar hardliners are in power. It has great potential though admittedly under a moderate government.

Jonny7

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Israel is not stable or democratic as long as the likes of Netanyahu and similar hardliners are in power. It has great potential though admittedly under a moderate government.

I don't particularly like Netanyahu, but what exactly is undemocratic about their rule or their election?

BuilderPlumber

Jonny7 wrote: »

I don't particularly like Netanyahu, but what exactly is undemocratic about their rule or their election?

Israel has elections and yes they appear free and fair. But still no one is under any illusions that the Israeli Army (IDF) and Mossad are the real government and call the shots. The likes of Netanyahu tick the boxes for those with real power in Israel. It was strange to me that Yitzhak Rabin, a moderate, was shot by extremists (and not Arab Muslims by the way!) and that Ariel Sharon (who was by the 2000s a moderate as well) was in a coma allowing more hardline forces into power.

Democracy is to me more than just voting and ousting an unpopular government. To me, it is changing a system. In the real political world, what often happens is more like the following:

1. The opposition sell themselves as the better alternative and blame all that is wrong in a country on the current government.
2. Election happens: the people swallow all the lies (be it: lower taxes, peace deals, better security, an end to corruption, etc.) and elect the new government.
3. The new government continue on the same as the last one.

I remember this song in Miami Vice with the line 'they sell us our president like they sell us (can't remember the rest - but the message is PR/marketing of politicians in a way that the people buy it). Democracy? No. Velvet dictatorship is a better word. By the way, the above 3 sections are not only about Israel. I am sure most so-called democracies will identify with what is said.

Jonny7

So there were no irregularities with the Israeli elections

And the point you are making is along the lines of - the people are too stupid to vote..

Brown Bomber

Be like Nutella wrote: »

Play it out in real life.

I've said before here that I don't think they are going for the bomb and my argument can be summed up as this:

They've said clearly that they aren't to the world, to their nation.. even issued a Fatwa against Nukes... their president and so called Supreme Leader has said so clearly.

It is not in their interest to continue living under current or worse sanctions... Economically and politically.

They are inviting an Israeli and US military response which is 'almost' guaranteed - all of which would require them to act irrationally in my view and IMO Iran IS STILL a rational actor.

What I'd love to hear from those who genuinely believe Iran is rushing towards a bomb and using all these years of so called negotiations/or lack thereof as a smokescreen, is, how would it play out in the real world?

How would they do it?

Are they just playing a game and announcing fatwa's and saying in direct terms that they are definitely not after the bomb right up to the point at which they have enough Fissile material to build one and then suddenly we're going to see a test detonation underground somewhere in Iran? which would be picked up INSTANTLY by US/Israeli sensors and much more likely LONG BEFORE they ever got close to testing a single device.... you see what I mean... will somebody here please outline how it plays out in real life? not around some Fox news table but in the real world?

How would they go from 'We're definitely not going for the bomb' TO 'Oh well we just tested a bomb, I guess we changed our minds and we don't care about the repercussions' ???

I am expecting some instant inane Iran bashing... that's not what I'm asking I want somebody who believes Iran is going for the bomb to explain to me how they think Iran will do it! and I suppose another question is whether you feel Iran is actually a rational actor, or not?

Nobody knows for sure whether they are or not, I accept that so this is just a debate but hopefully people can support their opinions with something..

Not ONLY do I not think Iran is going for the bomb, in a month or a year or (importantly) in the foreseeable future but I don't think the US Military brass/Intel community/Chiefs of staff think they are going for the bomb either. In fact I don't think Israel thinks Iran is going for the bomb now either and that there is a certain amount of regional game theory playing out which has more to do with proxy influence and regional power balance than nuclear weapons or nuclear power... in which Iran is involved also.

Would appreciate some opinions on how Iran would go from current position 'we are not after a bomb because x,y,z' to 'we just tested a nuclear bomb, feck the consequences'

Thanks

Apologies in advance for not reading through the thread but I just wanted to suggest a book to you which I've just started on Iran by investigative journalist and historian Gareth Porter. So far it has blown apart, piece-by-piece all the Neocon/Zionist propaganda and disinfo that most, including probably here, accept as fact.


http://www.amazon.com/Manufactured-Crisis-Untold-Story-Nuclear/dp/1935982338

Conas

Jonny7 wrote: »

So there were no irregularities with the Israeli elections

And the point you are making is along the lines of - the people are too stupid to vote..

The elections in Israel and USA are a farce, in my opinion. Then they have the audacity to slam the Castro's in Cuba for not running Democratic and fair elections. Just look at how Bush stole the election in 2000 from Gore, by blacklisting and targeting thousands of African-Americans, and putting them off the voting register. Then again he did have his brother as Governor to do his dirty work for him.

The same way the USA overthrew the democratically elected goverment in Iran, in the early 1950s because it didn't suit them.

It's either Red for Republican, or Blue for Democrat. Americans hands are tied now wants it comes to elections, and I do feel sorry for them.

Iran is a beautiful country with lovely people, they should be just left alone. I'm sick and tired of the way the Arabs, Muslims, have been marginalized and demonized by the entire world. Especially the West.

Jonny7

Conas wrote: »

The elections in Israel and USA are a farce, in my opinion.

You seem to be basing it one election or for personal reasons

Whether you dislike the Israelis/Israeli gov - they have free and fair elections

Then they have the audacity to slam the Castro's in Cuba for not running Democratic and fair elections.

Doesn't make sense to criticise free and fair elections on the one hand, then support an undemocratic autocratic one party system on the other - it comes across as hypocritical

Iran is a beautiful country with lovely people, they should be just left alone. I'm sick and tired of the way the Arabs, Muslims, have been marginalized and demonized by the entire world. Especially the West.

It's nothing to do with the people or the beauty of the country. Thankfully, the recent elections weren't fixed - and they voted in a moderate, one whom has decided to work with the world rather than against.. like is expected of any normal leader

Conas

Jonny7 wrote: »

You seem to be basing it one election or for personal reasons

Whether you dislike the Israelis/Israeli gov - they have free and fair elections

It just goes to show you the mindset they have in the International arena then doesn't it? Netanyahu is doing huge damage to Israel with the way he behaves. The vast majority of people no longer listen to him with regards to anything. In 2011 Nicolas Sarkozy was caught telling Obama off-mic that he couldn't stand him, and called him a liar. Obama then replied 'you think you have it bad, I have to deal with him everyday'. Just look at his body language when their talking in the oval office, very intense. Obama even seems far more relaxed and happy talking with Palestine President Mahmoud Abbas.

Obama knows he has to put on a brave face, and say things like 'all options are on the table', once it comes to dealing with Iran, just to keep them happy. It's shameful and embarassing that they can have Nukes in Dimona for decades, and never allowed an inspection, and were never forced to sign the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.

BuilderPlumber

Conas wrote: »

The elections in Israel and USA are a farce, in my opinion. Then they have the audacity to slam the Castro's in Cuba for not running Democratic and fair elections. Just look at how Bush stole the election in 2000 from Gore, by blacklisting and targeting thousands of African-Americans, and putting them off the voting register. Then again he did have his brother as Governor to do his dirty work for him.

The same way the USA overthrew the democratically elected goverment in Iran, in the early 1950s because it didn't suit them.

It's either Red for Republican, or Blue for Democrat. Americans hands are tied now wants it comes to elections, and I do feel sorry for them.

Iran is a beautiful country with lovely people, they should be just left alone. I'm sick and tired of the way the Arabs, Muslims, have been marginalized and demonized by the entire world. Especially the West.

This is very true. And we need to realise it is double standards. Both Bush2 elections were questionable to say the least. There is nothing set in stone why America has to be the enemy of many of these countries. And it is the American side that is most truculent here.

America unfortunately is controlled by big business and their lobby groups who have bought up both the parties. So, Democrat or Republican does not make a difference. The real US government is big business.

One of the many creations of the US both directly and indirectly is militant Islam/voodoo Islam. The US through its ally Saudi Arabia funded all sorts of weirdos in the Middle East so as to foment trouble for the USSR's commies to the north. So, the US made sure moderate socialist Mossadeq would not stay in power.

However, it was ironic that Shah Pahlavi became the new Iranian leader who had to go 25 years later! The US could have easily marched in and saved Iran from AK47 wielding voodoo armies back in 1979 but for the fact that Pahlavi was becoming too indo, too chummy with the commies in Eastern Europe and so on. Clearly, voodooism was not the only organisation behind the 1979 Iranian revolution (in fact, less than 3% of the population practiced it and most wanted either a proper republic or a reformed monarchy) but the US knew the voodoos would do the following for them:

-Crush the communist Tudeh movement.
-Scare the hell out of the USSR to the north.
-Inspire other 'Islamic' voodooist cults in Afghanistan and even within the USSR.

The regime that replaced the Pahlavi was full of respected Iranian leaders like Bani Sadr, Khomeini and Bazargan. But, all were sidelined by the Khmer Rouge-styled peasants and soon corruption became a way of life.

Then, Iraq was encouraged to invade when the voodoos outlived their purpose. The Afghanistan was invaded by the Russians at the same time and the US backed the voodoos again, this time ones that made the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Voodoo Junta look like Sweden's system in comparison. Frankenstein's monster was born and was used as a two pronged attack on both the Russians and also a way to distort moderate Islam, which was prevalent in pre 1979 Iran and Afghanistan and proving a threat to Christian dominance of the world! Voodoo 'Islam' (all that forbiding women to dress as they please and not allowing consumption of alcohol and cutting off people's limbs and chanting down with/death to America suddenly became the new, rewritten Koran) took over in all the war zones and of course was planted in Saudi Arabia too. Moderate Islam (where people could dress as they pleased, where alcohol could be consumed but where drunken disorderly behaviour was a sin and where their laws would look a lot like ours) became a memory to the new, violent, black Taliban voodoo which suits the West's agenda to kill off moderate voices in the Islamic world. 9/11 and so on are the harvest from the poisonous seeds of the West's dabbling with devil worshipper cults like The Taliban and al Qaeda.

The West love to see Iran and the like down, backward and intolerant as they can say to the West's people that 'ye are lucky' and 'free'. Iran if left to its own devices could have a very different history and moderate Islam could have prevailed. But the West was never going to allow this.