Overly demanding tenant

Media999

Would be funny if it was the same woman involved in all stories in this thread. Worst tenant ever.

username_x

Apologies to anyone who thinks I've been ignoring advice etc., I'm always on mobile so replying can be a bit difficult, esp when said tenant is constantly cutting off my posting by calling haha.

Anyways, I've pulled the band aid today, told her to get out. My old tenants called for post, and she said she had given it to me which she hadn't, I tried to call, no answer. The repairman went around, she refused to let him in, I tried to call, no answer. Decided I was kicking her out, tried to call to arrange a meeting. No answer.

So I sent her a text message saying that I'd been looking to speak with her all day, we had to arrange a meeting and Friday would be convenient for me as I hope it would be for her, if not I would be forced to enter the property. As I didn't want it to drag out any longer I told her why I wanted this meeting, and that I'd supply her with a fully drafted letter from solicitor on Friday, along with everything from PRTB re tenancy rights, landlord rights etc. and I've still heard nothing back.

But it's done now, ball is rolling just a matter of waiting for her to get out!

I'm very sorry if I've frustrated anybody and I do really appreciate your replies and advice and help! I'm just hoping now she won't make a big song and dance about leaving and she'll just go

AngryHippie

Good on you.

I hope it works out okay and she doesn't take the door jambs on her way.

Best of luck

P. Breathnach

It might be a good idea to have somebody accompany you on Friday - a person who is calm, who can help you maintain your resolve, and who can be a reliable witness if one should prove necessary.

Faith

Brilliant, username, I'm delighted you've taken control of the situation! Well done you, I know it's not easy, especially when you're so young.

Definitely bring someone with you on Friday, and best of luck with getting her out. Fingers crossed it'll be smooth sailing with the next tenants!

Thoie

Congrats. It may not be a pleasant conversation, but just keep calm (maybe have someone waiting outside for you afterwards). As well as the PTRB printouts, have a checklist of things you need to say along the lines of:

1. Your requests are unreasonable, and beyond what is required of a landlord
2. You are obviously unhappy with the rental, so it's better for both of us to call it quits now
3. You owe me money for the paint, furnishings removed/destroyed, whatever. The cost of these is €xxx and will be taken from your deposit, unless you can repair
4. You need to vacate the premises by x time, on x date. I will meet you then to confirm that the place is in reasonable condition, and will return the remains of your deposit. This is not open to negotiation.

Things she'll probably come back with:
You need to give me all of the deposit now because wah wah wah (No)
I need more time (No)
You need to pay my moving costs (No)
You better give me a reference (No)
Things are really difficult for me right now because wah wah wah (I'm sorry to hear that, but fail to see why that should impact my business)
I'll call the gardaí (feel free, they'll tell you that it's a civil matter and as per the solicitors letter, you need to vacate the premises by x time on x date)
What am I supposed to do with this sofa (That's not my concern)
Will you buy this lovely sofa from me in return for the paint/cupboards I destroyed (No, unless you'd been thinking of buying a new sofa anyway)

Set a time limit at the beginning of the meeting - e.g. "I can't stay long, I need to be somewhere else at blah time". That gives you an out if the conversation is going around in circles.

josip

Thoie wrote: »

Congrats. It may not be a pleasant conversation, but just keep calm (maybe have someone waiting outside for you afterwards). As well as the PTRB printouts, have a checklist of things you need to say along the lines of:

1. Your requests are unreasonable, and beyond what is required of a landlord
2. You are obviously unhappy with the rental, so it's better for both of us to call it quits now
3. You owe me money for the paint, furnishings removed/destroyed, whatever. The cost of these is €xxx and will be taken from your deposit, unless you can repair
4. You need to vacate the premises by x time, on x date. I will meet you then to confirm that the place is in reasonable condition, and will return the remains of your deposit. This is not open to negotiation.

Things she'll probably come back with:
You need to give me all of the deposit now because wah wah wah (No)
I need more time (No)
You need to pay my moving costs (No)
You better give me a reference (No)
Things are really difficult for me right now because wah wah wah (I'm sorry to hear that, but fail to see why that should impact my business)
I'll call the gardaí (feel free, they'll tell you that it's a civil matter and as per the solicitors letter, you need to vacate the premises by x time on x date)
What am I supposed to do with this sofa (That's not my concern)
Will you buy this lovely sofa from me in return for the paint/cupboards I destroyed (No, unless you'd been thinking of buying a new sofa anyway)

Set a time limit at the beginning of the meeting - e.g. "I can't stay long, I need to be somewhere else at blah time". That gives you an out if the conversation is going around in circles.

Done this before Thoie?

Thoie

josip wrote: »

Done this before Thoie?

Nope, not a landlord, wouldn't have the patience (or the starting capital )

It's basic conflict management. Most people (except the awkward nutters) hate conflict, and it's too easy in the situation to either forget to make the points you needed to make, or being wheedled into agreeing to something you don't want (because you feel the need to be loved by the awkward nutter, and your brain tells you that agreeing with people will make them like you).

A checklist of the points you need to get across is handy to make sure you've said everything, and you know that you've said it. If you ramble, then in a few weeks they'll say "you never told me x", and you'll doubt yourself whether you did or not.

Being prepared for the wheedling by running through some scenarios of what they might angle for helps you to remember to say no. Realistically the tenant won't ask for those precise things, but it gets you in the mindset that it's not a negotiation - there is one way things are going to happen, and that's it. People will usually try bully tactics first (you're making me move so you *have* to pay my moving costs), and when those fail they'll move to the sympathy ploy (things are so hard, my dog has syphillis and my boss beats me with sticks). You need to be clear in your own head in advance that their problems are not your problems - they're not your friend/family/lover.

murphaph

I wouldn't make a big deal about the money for the paint etc. I know that she owes you this but I'd remind her of it and then in the same breath let her know that you won't be retaining any of her deposit IF SHE LEAVES BY AGREED DATE. It's not worth having her stay on because of 200 quid. She's a bloody menace.

emeldc

Well done OP, I'm glad you made a start on this because I know it's not easy.
There is one thing that you should be aware of however;
It doesn't matter that she has breached her agreement with you,
It doesn't matter if you tear up her lease in front of her face.
It doesn't matter if you tell her to go by such a date.
If she doesn't leave of her own accord, you cant make her go. She has possession. She has a set of keys. She's inside, you're outside.
In effect if she refuses to go she becomes a squatter and you should see the rights those f***ers have. But look, hopefully it wont come to that, this is all education for you.
On friday, choose your partner carefully. By that I mean, I think she should be female, older than you and bigger than her. It should never, ever get physical but there is no harm in having a presence there, as a peace keeper, if you like. Give her back her deposit, in fact if you can get her to leave on Friday, give her back the balance of her rent. It will be worth it as she'll have no time to damage anything else. The stuff she has damaged will have to be put down to experience. Best of luck OP and hopefully she'll go of her own accord.

djimi

Fair play OP. My advice now is to ensure that you absolutely have your ducks in a row before you talk to her. If you plan to evict then you need to have a watertight notice of termination drawn up. If you plan to use the damage that she has caused to the property as your reason to terminate then you need to make that very clear, and you also need to be able to back up everything that you say. Seeking assistance from a solicitor at this point could be very beneficial.

Ray Palmer

I think the op has been lead astray. She can't kick the tenant out the only thing she can do is ask.

Considering how the tenant acts I am pretty sure she will know or find out all her rights and then pursue the LL.

While the tenant seems unreasonable as a LL you are held to a higher standard.

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I think the op has been lead astray. She can't kick the tenant out the only thing she can do is ask.

Considering how the tenant acts I am pretty sure she will know or find out all her rights and then pursue the LL.

While the tenant seems unreasonable as a LL you are held to a higher standard.

The OP has consulted a solicitor and advised the tenant that she will have a fully drafted letter from her solicitor on Friday- so presumably she is keeping with the letter of the law, and not using any heavy handed or illegal tactics.

OP- in the event you haven't checked it out already- I would like to direct you to the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act. It would be helpful if you read it a few times before tomorrow- as this is the foundation on which you are evicting her, and on which she may fight your attempts to evict her.

Regards,

The_Conductor

py2006

Have you given her a months notice or is she to get out immediately?

djimi

The_Conductor wrote: »

The OP has consulted a solicitor and advised the tenant that she will have a fully drafted letter from her solicitor on Friday- so presumably she is keeping with the letter of the law, and not using any heavy handed or illegal tactics.

A fully drafted letter to say what though? From what I can tell, the only grounds that the OP has to evict this tenant is that she removed the cabinet from the bathroom without permission. If the solicitor feels that this is sufficient grounds to evict for breach of lease then fantastic, but the OP is going to have to be prepared to fully back up her claim if/when the tenant challenges the eviction through the PRTB.

Victor

emeldc wrote: »

Advocating illegal evictions isn't acceptable

Moderator

emeldc

I think you are all missing the point here.
It doesn't matter who writes the letter or what it says or how it's worded
The only legal way to evict a tenant is to do it through the courts.
All other evictions are seen as illegal unless the tenant agrees to leave of her own accord. As I said in my previous post, hopefully that's what will happen here.

Victor

emeldc wrote: »

I'm sorry now but that is complete horse manure. If it was that easy you wouldn't be able to cope with the queue of landlords wanting to avail of your super scrote eviction services.

I'm signing off this thread now, the OP knows my views.

infosys wrote: »

So you are calling me a liar, I'm not, but I am a qualified barrister, and in every case I was asked for advice, it was sorted. If you on the other hand prefer to call people liars, then I think we all know how much we can take from your advice. You also as a landlord have an admitted 2 crap tenants one took 2 years to resolve and the other you illegally evicted, good record that.

Take it to private message you two.

Moderator

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

A fully drafted letter to say what though? From what I can tell, the only grounds that the OP has to evict this tenant is that she removed the cabinet from the bathroom without permission.

The cabinets, the paint, refusing access for repairs, destroying(?) post, antisocial behaviour. Should be enough there to go on.

djimi

runawaybishop wrote: »

The cabinets, the paint, refusing access for repairs, destroying(?) post, antisocial behaviour. Should be enough there to go on.

And in all of those (the ones that count at least; antisocial behaviour and destroying post especially are not going to come into play) the OP must be able to back up their claim. The cabinets would be the easiest one to use, and possibly the only one that could be backed up, assuming the OP has taken a full inventory, preferably with pictures, of the property prior to the tenant moving in.

Im not saying that the OP shouldnt look to terminate the lease, of course she should, not am I saying that she has no valid reason; Im simply saying that she needs to make sure that she gives watertight notice and can back up the case if/when needed to do so, because an eviction of this nature could be a potential minefield if not handled properly. There seems to be a lot of people saying get rid of her, issue termination notice etc; its not as straightforward as that where a fixed term lease is in place, and the OP much play it properly and carefully.

pwurple

djimi wrote: »

Im not saying that the OP shouldnt look to terminate the lease, of course she should, not am I saying that she has no valid reason; Im simply saying that she needs to make sure that she gives watertight notice and can back up the case if/when needed to do so, because an eviction of this nature could be a potential minefield if not handled properly. There seems to be a lot of people saying get rid of her, issue termination notice etc; its not as straightforward as that where a fixed term lease is in place, and the OP much play it properly and carefully.

Yes, terminating a lease is a disaster unless the tenant agrees it is in their interest also. This should be the aim of the meeting on Friday. It's not working out for EITHER of them, so they should agree to go their separate ways, for mutual benefit.

If that agreement isn't reached, then you're into the eviction scenario above.

djimi

pwurple wrote: »

It's not working out for EITHER of them, so they should agree to go their separate ways, for mutual benefit.

Probably a smart angle to take initially. Youre not happy with the property, Im not going to be entertaining any futher requests that are not absolutely essential, so if you give me x number of days written notice I will agree and will return deposit.

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

And in all of those (the ones that count at least; antisocial behaviour and destroying post especially are not going to come into play) the OP must be able to back up their claim.

Harassment is antisocial behaviour and is specifically called out. Just because the one being harassed is the landlord doesn't make it exempt.

djimi

runawaybishop wrote: »

Harassment is antisocial behaviour and is specifically called out. Just because the one being harassed is the landlord doesn't make it exempt.

In tenancy law it is my understanding that antisocial behaviour is bevaiour which affects those living around the tenant, not necessary the landlord. It also must be reported, and unless its a serious breach (ie the tenant is breaking the law by growing weed/running a brothel) then the tenant must be given a chance to modify their behaviour.

From what we have been told, the tenant has given ammunition to the OP that would allow for the tenancy to be terminated immediately for breach of lease, so that would be an easier and more straightforward avenue to pursue.

Pawwed Rig

There is also a high burden of proof required to show that there was antisocial behaviour especially if you are seeking the 7 day notice period.

tp25

OP you may draft a side letter saying that the solicitor letter is now redundant. Note that you accept that she stays full 28 days or one months notice (whatever it is). Note that you as landlord intend to move in. This should sort things out and give you one month time to see whether or not make another move (more careful than the one with solicitors letter).

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

In tenancy law it is my understanding that antisocial behaviour is bevaiour which affects those living around the tenant, not necessary the landlord. It also must be reported, and unless its a serious breach (ie the tenant is breaking the law by growing weed/running a brothel) then the tenant must be given a chance to modify their behaviour.

From what we have been told, the tenant has given ammunition to the OP that would allow for the tenancy to be terminated immediately for breach of lease, so that would be an easier and more straightforward avenue to pursue.

• Not engage in or allow anti-social behaviour or act in a way that would invalidate the landlord’s insurance
Anti-social behaviour is defined as behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, causes danger, injury, damage or loss, or includes violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment, obstruction or threats. It also includes persistent behaviour that prevents or interferes with the peaceful occupation of neighbouring dwellings by others in the building or its vicinity.

^^ it doesn't appear to be limited to neighbours. Harassment is just one reason the OP has though, there are plenty others.

djimi

Where did you get that from? Ive seen other definitions that are more specific.

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

Where did you get that from? Ive seen other definitions that are more specific.

Some random website. The PRTB have this also

The Act defi
nes such behaviour as follows:
behave in a way that is anti-social
means
(a) engage in behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, being
an offence the commission of which is reasonably likely to affect directly
the well-being or welfare of other

And then a bunch of stuff relating to the vicinity. Harassment is an offense so it would appear to be applicable.

Ray Palmer

The_Conductor wrote: »

The OP has consulted a solicitor and advised the tenant that she will have a fully drafted letter from her solicitor on Friday- so presumably she is keeping with the letter of the law, and not using any heavy handed or illegal tactics.

OP- in the event you haven't checked it out already- I would like to direct you to the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act. It would be helpful if you read it a few times before tomorrow- as this is the foundation on which you are evicting her, and on which she may fight your attempts to evict her.

Regards,

The_Conductor

It doesn't matter you are still asking them to leave. To evict them you need to have a court order. She can simply refuse until that event.

A solicitors letter is heavy handed IMHO seeing as the tenant was never given clear instructions.

A solicitor gets paid by their time and effort and it is not uncommon for them to agree to something knowing full well their client will lose and/or has no chance of actually winning.