Overly demanding tenant

emeldc

djimi wrote: »

Would this not need to go through the PRTB? I know it is theft, but ultimtely it is a matter arising from a tenancy, for which the OP has a deposit to be used to cover the loss, and if they wish to pursue the tenant further would they not need a ruling from the PRTB first in order to do so?

I think you're spot on there. I think it would have to go through the PRTB and what a complete and totally useless waste of time that would be :rolleyes:

professore

Report the theft to the Gardai and the PRTB so they both have it on file. If she goes making accusations to someone, it will look really bad if you only at that stage say "but she was a nutjob for months and she stole my stuff" .... the Guards / PRTB will rightly say "Why didn't you report it?"

It's not about getting justice, which is unlikely, it's about covering your ass. Try to get witnesses too.

D3PO

djimi wrote: »

If it wasnt theft, if it was something like the tenant had knocked in an internal wall without permission for example, would the landlord be able to pursue for criminal damage, or would they have to pursue through the PRTB? I suspect the latter, but I may be wrong.

That's an interesting one. I suspect you may be right I don't think that's comparable though.

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

That's an interesting one. I suspect you may be right I don't think that's comparable though.

Im not sure tbh, but the fact that they are both dealing with financial loss arising from a tenancy, I suspect that in both cases the landlord would need to pursue through the PRTB, as in both cases the tenant would be liable for the cost of what was missing/damaged. I dont think the fact that its theft as opposed to say criminal damage would elevate it beyond the remit of the PRTB, although obviously I could be wrong about that.

JillyQ

emeldc wrote: »

I know it seems like the right thing to do but it would be a waste of time. The OP should put it behind her and move on. She's had enough stress and hassle for the last couple of months, bringing the guards into it will only cause more stress. She also shouldn't bring this woman back on herself. She's gone. She should leave it at that.

It certainly is not a waste of time.

D3PO

djimi wrote: »

Im not sure tbh, but the fact that they are both dealing with financial loss arising from a tenancy, I suspect that in both cases the landlord would need to pursue through the PRTB, as in both cases the tenant would be liable for the cost of what was missing/damaged. I dont think the fact that its theft as opposed to say criminal damage would elevate it beyond the remit of the PRTB, although obviously I could be wrong about that.

yes but one relates to the breaking of a lease condition rather than malicious damage and therefore I don't believe it is criminal damage.

Just the same way somebody wouldn't be charged with criminal damage for crashing into somebodies elses car but would for keying the same car.

whereas theft is a malicious premeditated act and isn't something that breaches a lease condition but breaches law.

I could be wrong that's just my perspective on the matter.

djimi

Removing items from the property would constitute a breach of lease seeing as how the lease has an inventory of items which are expected to be in the property at the termination of the tenancy. Where items are missing from the inventory, the landlord is entitled to deduct from the deposit, and pursue through the PRTB where further financial loss has been incurred. While it might be technically theft, there is a mechanism in place to compensate for financial loss arising from such matters (ie the deposit), and the system for pursuing the matter further is through the PRTB.

the_syco

djimi wrote: »

If it wasnt theft, if it was something like the tenant had knocked in an internal wall without permission for example, would the landlord be able to pursue for criminal damage, or would they have to pursue through the PRTB? I suspect the latter, but I may be wrong.

Not sure about criminal damage, but depending on the wall, it wonder if it could be either vandalism (non-load bearing wall), or criminal damage (load bearing wall), esp as the latter could make the house structurally unsound?

IMO, theft of physical things, goto the Gardai. Not paying rent and moving out, goto the PTRB.

djimi

Knocking an internal wall was probably an extreme example. A better example might be breaking a table or damaging a worktop or perhaps smashing a window; technically could be considered to be criminal damage/vandalism (not sure which is applicable), but would have to be dealt with through the PRTB.

The point really was that when it comes to a tenancy, there is a mechanism in place to deal with any financial loss on the part of the landlord (be it missing items, damage etc), and that system does not involve the Gardai. It might be theft, but its still breach of lease and financial loss incurred from the tenancy, and as such the landlord would need to pursue the tenant through the PRTB.

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

Removing items from the property would constitute a breach of lease seeing as how the lease has an inventory of items which are expected to be in the property at the termination of the tenancy. Where items are missing from the inventory, the landlord is entitled to deduct from the deposit, and pursue through the PRTB where further financial loss has been incurred. While it might be technically theft, there is a mechanism in place to compensate for financial loss arising from such matters (ie the deposit), and the system for pursuing the matter further is through the PRTB.

The items on the inventory are not owned by the tenant. Therefore taking (aka stealing) them at the end of the lease would surely be theft. The deposit is to cover damage to said items, or internal walls etc.

You take the TV when you leave, that is just outright theft. I'd be calling the gardai. If they don't want to know, so be it, but I'd be on to them first

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

The items on the inventory are not owned by the tenant. Therefore taking (aka stealing) them at the end of the lease would surely be theft. The deposit is to cover damage to said items, or internal walls etc.

You take the TV when you leave, that is just outright theft. I'd be calling the gardai. If they don't want to know, so be it, but I'd be on to them first

Buts that my point; while it is theft, the deposit is there to cover the loss, and if the loss is greater than the deposit then the landlord must go to the PRTB to pursue the tenant for the remainder. Just as they would for damage, oustanding rent or any other financial loss incurred from the tenancy.

Im not saying that Im right about this btw; its just my interpretation of how I think the systems works.

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

Buts that my point; while it is theft, the deposit is there to cover the loss, and if the loss is greater than the deposit then the landlord must go to the PRTB to pursue the tenant for the remainder. Just as they would for damage, oustanding rent or any other financial loss incurred from the tenancy.

Im not saying that Im right about this btw; its just my interpretation of how I think the systems works.

If that is how the system works it is cack - surely theft such as this is deserving of having a legal mark against your name.

Thoie

djimi wrote: »

Buts that my point; while it is theft, the deposit is there to cover the loss, and if the loss is greater than the deposit then the landlord must go to the PRTB to pursue the tenant for the remainder. Just as they would for damage, oustanding rent or any other financial loss incurred from the tenancy.

Im not saying that Im right about this btw; its just my interpretation of how I think the systems works.

I'd be inclined to look at it as "what's got damaged/gone missing" versus "what's been taken".

Cutlery could go missing, a cushion might get damaged and be thrown out. A chair might get broken, but if the entire kitchen table and chairs are missing, I'd assume they've been stolen. I wouldn't call the gardaí over a missing pillow, but I would if someone's dismantled the bed and removed it down to the last bolt. A missing teaspoon could be considered "normal", missing a cooker is a whole other ballgame

Grandpa Hassan

djimi wrote: »

Buts that my point; while it is theft, the deposit is there to cover the loss, and if the loss is greater than the deposit then the landlord must go to the PRTB to pursue the tenant for the remainder. Just as they would for damage, oustanding rent or any other financial loss incurred from the tenancy.

Im not saying that Im right about this btw; its just my interpretation of how I think the systems works.

I think if you strip the house...TV, cooker, fridge, furniture, and leave it as an empty shell, then that is a matter for the gardai

JillyQ

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think if you strip the house...TV, cooker, fridge, furniture, and leave it as an empty shell, then that is a matter for the gardai

I absolutely agree with you. I would go so far as to say if she has removed anything that was on the inventory list then it is automatically theft.

Ken.

Op, did anyone ring you for a reference for her. If not I wonder who she's using for a new place.

the_syco

ken wrote: »

Op, did anyone ring you for a reference for her. If not I wonder who she's using for a new place.

Probably the same "landlord" as last time?

sunnysoutheast

username_x wrote: »

Well she's gone, but she didn't do it quietly. First begged, then kicked and screamed then begged again. Told her enough was enough.

Went around to collect keys and most of the stuff is gone from the house however, I have her deposit. Locks are changed and good riddance to a nut job!

On the face of it that is very good news. Do you have it in writing that both parties mutually agreed to an early termination of the rental given that your original post was only three weeks ago? The last thing you need is any sort of complaint to the PRTB about the legality of your actions, given that you've changed the locks etc.

Make sure you cover yourself, but well done for standing up to her.

username_x

It's beds, cabinets & side tables gone.

Wrote to PRTB with an explanation of everything thats happened, and went to the Gardai about the stuff purely incase she got to them before me to come out with a whack job story.

Yes, there was an agreement signed saying that we had both agreed the tenancy needed to end early, she signed it after about a half hour of refusing. The woman is crazy, when I arrived I had a friend with me as a witness, and asked for her to have the same. When I called to the house she said her friend was on the way.

Not wanting her to feel intimidated I told her I would wait in the car until her friend arrived (I did not want to leave my own friend in the car and me alone with her). About twenty minutes passed and she came to the front door shouting that I was too afraid to come into the house etc. because I knew I "couldn't get rid of her". I stayed sitting in the car until her friend arrived. They both decided to tell me how what I was doing was illegal and I'd burn in hell (actual words) etc. Eventually I told her friend to shut up (slightly nicer) explained that she was only there as a witness not to give an opinion. Cue more screaming and shouting from crazy tenant, then begging etc. It was mental.

But she's gone now. Thanks for all your advice guys!

sunnysoutheast

username_x wrote: »

Yes, there was an agreement signed saying that we had both agreed the tenancy needed to end early, she signed it after about a half hour of refusing.

I would make several copies of this

Well done again, and hope you have better luck with your next tenant.

MortgageBroker

Only seeing this thread now, if you want a person out early on then make the request and do so before 6 months is out. Under the 2004 tenancy act after that they have the right to a continued 4 year residency (also known as a 'part 4'), which is a good thing for tenants as they do need surety of tenure, but for a landlord with a client like the one described you need to terminate early and often.

That she took things is clearly a matter of larceny as there is no indication she didn't wish to permanently deprive you of possession of the goods which belong to you, that makes it a Garda matter. Once they get involved she'll probably give everything back, this is a most unusual case, I have never encountered a client like this in my time as a landlore.

Grandpa Hassan

Wow. Glad you got her out. The nature of the things she took though make that clear and intentional theft. I would definitely be involving the gardai.

Unless of course you think she is such a nutjob that she'll come and torch your house or something. I guess only you can make that decision

The_Conductor

MortgageBroker wrote: »

That she took things is clearly a matter of larceny as there is no indication she didn't wish to permanently deprive you of possession of the goods which belong to you, that makes it a Garda matter. Once they get involved she'll probably give everything back, this is a most unusual case, I have never encountered a client like this in my time as a landlore.

I'm guessing she actually demolished/broke-up/dismantled/destroyed the things- given her previous form with stripping the bathroom of its cabinet etc.

OP- well done on keeping your cool, and calmly getting rid of the tenant in a legal and safe manner. I'm sorry she has left destruction and missing furniture, fixtures and fittings in her wake- however, it would appear that this is minor in comparison to what she might have done.

As she has left, signed an agreement to this effect- and moved out- make sure the locks are changed.........

Well done.

Thoie

username_x wrote: »

But she's gone now.

That can't have been easy at all - well done on handling it well!

Dubl07

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm guessing she actually demolished/broke-up/dismantled/destroyed the things- given her previous form with stripping the bathroom of its cabinet etc.

OP- well done on keeping your cool, and calmly getting rid of the tenant in a legal and safe manner. I'm sorry she has left destruction and missing furniture, fixtures and fittings in her wake- however, it would appear that this is minor in comparison to what she might have done.

As she has left, signed an agreement to this effect- and moved out- make sure the locks are changed.........

Well done.

Plus one on the locks change. I'd also disable any letterbox on the front door and put up an external post-box.

Doom

username_x wrote: »

She threw the paint out as it was under the stairs so she assumed it "wasn't needed". She has signed her lease. I have someone coming today to collect the sofa because she wants to buy her own.

Thanks for all your advice. She told me it necessary for a landlord to paint every year and I haven't heard this before. Can anyone shed light on this? As I said I didn't mind recarpetting some of the house as it was needed, but with regards to everything else no. She also removed two bathroom cabinets and put her own on, she is now asking for a skip to get rid of these items. Am I obliged to do this?

I'd charge her for the paint she threw out..


Edit...read last post
Fairway op.

ABajaninCork

Doom wrote: »

I'd charge her for the paint she threw out...

The OP took the deposit, which she had every right to do! Sounds as though it was cheap at half the price.

But I'm not sure it'll cover the damage and theft as well as the paint. What happens if there's a shortfall in the deposit (i.e full deposit taken, but doesn't cover the cost to make good)?

old_aussie

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There is also a high burden of proof required to show that there was antisocial behaviour especially if you are seeking the 7 day notice period.

Record of all the phone calls and texts, the hours that they were made to landlord, should be enough.

The_Conductor

ABajaninCork wrote: »

The OP took the deposit, which she had every right to do! Sounds as though it was cheap at half the price.

But I'm not sure it'll cover the damage and theft as well as the paint. What happens if there's a shortfall in the deposit (i.e full deposit taken, but doesn't cover the cost to make good)?

You are expected to bring a case to the PRTB- and pursue it via their dispute resolution process. Asking a dentist who doesn't speak English, to root canal all your teeth- just for the hell of it- would probably give you more satisfaction.

By all means lodge a complaint for criminal damage with the Gardai- but don't expect anything to come of it.

username_x

Just to clarify, I didn't actually take her deposit.

I went around to get the keys from her and inspect the property before giving her the deposit back and she'd already left.

Called her a couple of times no answer. Text her to let her know I was outside, nothing. So I let myself in (on the agreed date she said she'd leave, and this inspection was planned in advance I didn't just spring up on her) then I saw everything was gone.

Got a text about two hours later to say she'd left and wouldn't be returning, but I had her deposit and everything ready to go, and she left without it. I did text her back (I know texting is quite unprofessional, but I needed a paper trail and in this instance I needed an answer fast) to ask her if she could return to discuss her deposit (mainly because I wanted to know where my stuff was) and got no reply.

TL;DR:

I have her deposit because she didn't stick around to give me the chance to give it back.