Wisdom vs Knowledge

andrew

The most obvious and direct example is people pay less interest on their mortgages when interest rates are low. Businesses also find it easier financing any loans they may have taken out and these lower costs are sometimes passed on to their customers. So lower interest rates tend to result in lower inflation.

When interest rates are low and business find it easier to finance loans and people pay less interest on their mortgages, what happens? They borrow more. So the quantity of loans demanded increases. Meanwhile, banks supply more money for loans, since the alternative is to have it sit at the Central Bank at a low(er) interest rate. The interest rate on loans that already exist doesn't directly change, as many business and home loans have a fixed interest rate.

Hence, normally, a decrease in the Central Bank interest rate leads to more loans, which leads to an increase in the amount of money in the economy, which leads to an increase in inflation (in the medium to long term.)

Of course, this assumes the demand for loans is there. If demand isn't there, then you can cut interest rates all you like and inflation won't budge. This is what might be happening at the moment.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

I am beginning to think that you don't know the answer to the question as to how cutting interest rates leads to lower inflation.

All of the conventional economic wisdom suggests the opposite. I cannot find a reliable explanation anywhere and I am interested in how you reached that conclusion.

I am not in the habit of repeating myself but for you I will make an exception. Every time the ECB cut interest rates, people pay less on their mortgages. Hence it truly does lower inflation - contrary to what your text book may have you believe. This is a fact which no measure of "wisdom," conventional or otherwise can circumvent.

Don`t you see that discounting property from the official figure is nothing other than a political stroke to massage the figures during the more conventional times when inflation is invariably on the rise? Asserting that "inflation" does not take account of mortgages whilst technically true is nothing other than a semantic, an irrelevance.

In a world of global trade where millions in the east work long hours for a pittance while we in the west borrow billions to subsidize a quality of life we have become accustomed to - something has to give. Semantics, creative accounting and politicking with sums and definitions can only mask the problems for so long but not indefinitely.

realitykeeper

djpbarry wrote: »

This is unconventional?
Ah, but these are unconventional times. Apparently.

Yes QE is highly unconventional. I thought everyone knew that.

Low Energy Eng

realitykeeper wrote: »

I am not in the habit of repeating myself but for you I will make an exception. Every time the ECB cut interest rates, people pay less on their mortgages. Hence it truly does lower inflation - contrary to what your text book may have you believe. This is a fact which no measure of "wisdom," conventional or otherwise can circumvent.

People pay less on their mortgage so their surplus cash now stays in the economy, which can then be used on food or luxury goods or stocks? Hence inflationary? Where's the deflation coming from?

Going the opposite way, rising interest rates mean people have less spare cash to buy the above items, so, please elaborate for me?

realitykeeper

Low Energy Eng wrote: »

People pay less on their mortgage so their surplus cash now stays in the economy, which can then be used on food or luxury goods or stocks? Hence inflationary? Where's the deflation coming from?

Going the opposite way, rising interest rates mean people have less spare cash to buy the above items, so, please elaborate for me?

Obviously when ECB rates are cut that direct intervention is deflationary in and of itself. You state the theory correctly - that people will have more money to spend. In reality though people are not spending, probably because they don`t believe you can stimulate your way out of a recession.

As you probably know the peripheral States of the Eurozone especially Italy, Spain and Greece are trying to bully the German`s into spending more money in order to boost inflation and avoid further deflation. The German`s being prudent are understandably not very keen on that idea. Consequently, some European politicians from the PIGS are lobbying to devalue the Euro by demanding that more Euros be printed.

It would be my view that the German`s are correct and the PIGS are not.

Sheldons Brain

It would be my view that the German`s are correct and the PIGS are not.

The Germans are being irresponsible. A refusal to virtually revalue forces virtual devaluation on everyone else..

Low Energy Eng

realitykeeper wrote: »

Obviously when ECB rates are cut that direct intervention is deflationary in and of itself. You state the theory correctly - that people will have more money to spend. In reality though people are not spending, probably because they don`t believe you can stimulate your way out of a recession.

No, you've got it backwards, the lower interest rates are a reaction to the markets crashing.
The issue is structural, as long as these issues aren't addressed there wont be much growth. This is why people aren't spending, the people are aware of the above.

Would I buy a house now knowing the government has a massive deficit to fix? Not a hope, even with a SCD bubble.

djpbarry

realitykeeper wrote: »

Every time the ECB cut interest rates, people pay less on their mortgages. Hence it truly does lower inflation - contrary to what your text book may have you believe.

You're happy enough to use text-book definitions when it suits your argument:

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes QE is highly unconventional. I thought everyone knew that.

realitykeeper

Low Energy Eng wrote: »

No, you've got it backwards, the lower interest rates are a reaction to the markets crashing.
The issue is structural, as long as these issues aren't addressed there wont be much growth. This is why people aren't spending, the people are aware of the above.

Would I buy a house now knowing the government has a massive deficit to fix? Not a hope, even with a SCD bubble.

If the governments did not interfere and allowed the credit crunch of 2008 happen, this would have resulted in a depression like that of 1929. That would have been the correct course because the depression will/must happen anyway. It is an inevitable part of the natural order and it cannot be avoided.

The fundamental problem is human behavior. Europe and the US have been rewarding the borrowers and penalizing the savers while any attempt of restoring competitiveness is shackled by the left. Consequently, nature will prevail and the depression will happen only worse because they are making the problem bigger by multiples through QE and the like.

Low Energy Eng

realitykeeper wrote: »

If the governments did not interfere and allowed the credit crunch of 2008 happen, this would have resulted in a depression like that of 1929. That would have been the correct course because the depression will/must happen anyway. It is an inevitable part of the natural order and it cannot be avoided.

The fundamental problem is human behavior. Europe and the US have been rewarding the borrowers and penalizing the savers while any attempt of restoring competitiveness is shackled by the left. Consequently, nature will prevail and the depression will happen only worse because they are making the problem bigger by multiples through QE and the like.

Completely agree, next recession/depression will be catastrophic

realitykeeper

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, it's not a foreign language - English is the native language of pretty much every Irish person.

That is where you are wrong. English is the first language of most Irish people but it is the native language of none. The clue is in the name, - it`s called English for a reason you know.

Godge

realitykeeper wrote: »

That is where you are wrong. English is the first language of most Irish people but it is the native language of none. The clue is in the name, - it`s called English for a reason you know.

English has been spoken as a first language for centuries, that makes it a native language.

Otherwise the only native speakers are Ogham speakers.

Culture evolves, it is not fixed. The Gaelic culture of dancing at the crossroads speaking Irish has evolved into an Irish culture heavily influenced by American and Anglo-Saxan cultures with English speaking being to the fore. In fact, you are also seeing increasing cultural influences from Europe with the eating of pasta and the drinking of wine becoming norms that were completely absent from the Ireland of 30/40 years ago.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

Culture evolves, it is not fixed.

This is true. Culture evolves and the evolving cultures of today are the BRICS countries and their languages. The English language is on the precipice of a long a sustained decline.

I for one do not think we should have any regrets about this fact, after all the English language was imposed on our Gaelic speaking ancestors under extreme the duress of cultural and ethnic genocide. Instead we should adopt and embrace the newly relevant languages with the same enthusiasm as we have taking to pasta and the oriental martial arts. The merits of doing so will be immense and immediate. Indeed, how better to court such an initiative than to combine it with a cultural renaissance of our own language.

Reviving the Irish language does not mean mobilizing an army of nuns and Christian brothers with mahogany sticks. There are other ways which are both painless and highly effective.

creedp

realitykeeper wrote: »

Reviving the Irish language does not mean mobilizing an army of nuns and Christian brothers with mahogany sticks. There are other ways which are both painless and highly effective.

Presumably you are advocating the adoption of the language and culture of the BRICS for rational economic reasons .. presumably also this does not apply to reviving the Irish language which is much further down the evolutionary path to discinction than the English language. Personally I think there is plenty support for the Irish language in this country .. however you can bring the horse to water but .......

recedite

realitykeeper wrote: »

English is the first language of most Irish people but it is the native language of none. The clue is in the name, - it`s called English for a reason you know.

What is the native language of most people in the USA then? American ?

realitykeeper

recedite wrote: »

What is the native language of most people in the USA then? American ?

The Americans have many native languages, depending on what their ancestors spoke.

realitykeeper

creedp wrote: »

Presumably you are advocating the adoption of the language and culture of the BRICS for rational economic reasons .. presumably also this does not apply to reviving the Irish language which is much further down the evolutionary path to discinction than the English language. Personally I think there is plenty support for the Irish language in this country .. however you can bring the horse to water but .......

Yes the languages of the BRICS countries ought to be learned for practical reasons and the Irish language is worth reviving for cultural reasons and as we`re at it - as a means of everyday communication.
A simple and effective way to revive the Irish language would be to provide free child care for preschool toddlers, offering total immersion in the Irish language. As these Irish speaking kids progress up through the education system the Irish language could be used as the medium of education, starting with junior infants, the following year the senior and junior infants and so on with each passing year.

That is how to revive the Irish language in a single generation.

Meanwhile, a taxation on English could fund the teaching of Irish and the languages of the BRICs countries. Higher taxes on advertising in English is one example of how this could be implemented. Since all businesses must compete with each other to get their message out to the consumer - it would not be anti competitive and in any case it would only affect the domestic market. The export potential would improve with language competence in Portuguese, Russian etc.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

English has been spoken as a first language for centuries, that makes it a native language.

You might be surprised at how resilient Irish was in some areas of ireland. My father recently looked back at his family tree and up until the late 19C most of his family were Irish speaking mono-linguists.

recedite

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Americans have many native languages, depending on what their ancestors spoke.

The ancestors of any individual would not all have spoken the same language. Each generation speaks whatever language is being used at the time in the country they live in. That is their native language.
By your logic, the native language of Eamonn De Valera was spanish.

realitykeeper

recedite wrote: »

The ancestors of any individual would not all have spoken the same language. Each generation speaks whatever language is being used at the time in the country they live in. That is their native language.
By your logic, the native language of Eamonn De Valera was spanish.

You have confirmed my point. If an American has a mother who spoke Italian and a father who spoke Russian then his native languages are Russian and Italian even if his first language is English. In any case, America will be irrelevant to the real world when capitalism collapses there. During the cold war, very few people had any interest in learning Russian or Chinese. They all wanted to learn English because America was capitalist. That is why English will decline in importance, there will be no profit to be had in learning it.

maninasia

sarumite wrote: »

You might be surprised at how resilient Irish was in some areas of ireland. My father recently looked back at his family tree and up until the late 19C most of his family were Irish speaking mono-linguists.

Even in the midlands people had quite a few Irish phrases until the last century. They say it was the famine which really decimated the Irish language, I'd say there's some truth in that.

It must be said though that Irish was a Celtic language that came in with invaders. Those invaders only accounted for about 10% of the native population. The builders of Newgrange etc spoke a completely different language and they account for more of our ancestors than the Celtic invaders.

Godge

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes the languages of the BRICS countries ought to be learned for practical reasons and the Irish language is worth reviving for cultural reasons and as we`re at it - as a means of everyday communication.

Why is it worth reviving the Irish language for cultural reasons? Should we not focus as someone has suggested on the languages spoken before the Celts invaded? People who suggest reviving an older culture forget that many languages and cultures will have been native at various times, which you deem appropriate to be revived depends on which colour your rose-tinted glasses prefer.

For economic reasons, English will remain the language of business for at least 50, if not 100 years. English as a native language with Manadarin, Portuguese, Russian etc as second languages is the best way to compete.

realitykeeper wrote: »

A simple and effective way to revive the Irish language would be to provide free child care for preschool toddlers, offering total immersion in the Irish language. As these Irish speaking kids progress up through the education system the Irish language could be used as the medium of education, starting with junior infants, the following year the senior and junior infants and so on with each passing year.

That is how to revive the Irish language in a single generation.

Completely impractical. There is a shortage of teachers qualifies to teach Irish at second level, where are you going to get all the necessary qualified teachers and kindergarten assistants? Certainly not at the rates currently being paid.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Meanwhile, a taxation on English could fund the teaching of Irish and the languages of the BRICs countries. Higher taxes on advertising in English is one example of how this could be implemented. Since all businesses must compete with each other to get their message out to the consumer - it would not be anti competitive and in any case it would only affect the domestic market. The export potential would improve with language competence in Portuguese, Russian etc.

A taxation on English would be in breach of racial equality legislation. It would also be unconstitutional.

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

Even in the midlands people had quite a few Irish phrases until the last century. They say it was the famine which really decimated the Irish language, I'd say there's some truth in that.

It must be said though that Irish was a Celtic language that came in with invaders. Those invaders only accounted for about 10% of the native population. The builders of Newgrange etc spoke a completely different language and they account for more of our ancestors than the Celtic invaders.

The famine was in the century before last. It is a long time since Irish was widely spoken.

Farmer Pudsey

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes the languages of the BRICS countries ought to be learned for practical reasons and the Irish language is worth reviving for cultural reasons and as we`re at it - as a means of everyday communication.
A simple and effective way to revive the Irish language would be to provide free child care for preschool toddlers, offering total immersion in the Irish language. As these Irish speaking kids progress up through the education system the Irish language could be used as the medium of education, starting with junior infants, the following year the senior and junior infants and so on with each passing year.

That is how to revive the Irish language in a single generation.

Meanwhile, a taxation on English could fund the teaching of Irish and the languages of the BRICs countries. Higher taxes on advertising in English is one example of how this could be implemented. Since all businesses must compete with each other to get their message out to the consumer - it would not be anti competitive and in any case it would only affect the domestic market. The export potential would improve with language competence in Portuguese, Russian etc.

If money and discrimation could have revived the Irish language we would all be speaking Gaelic at present. There has been more money spend teaching Irish than any other subject in the school syllabus. Yet we have failed to revive it. It was compulsary at one time you failed your leaving cert if you failed Irish. You had to reach certain standards to work in the PS and as well to become a national school teacher you need an honnour in Irish before you could enter teaching colleges, it is only recently that they required you to have a higher C for English.

So I cannot see any extra money making a huge difference. English is the primary buisness language in the world go on holidays to Spain or Italy and the German and Swedish National will be converseing with the Italian or Spainard in what language, Russian, Chineese, Portageese, no in f##king English more than likly.

We are lucky it is our primary language our problem is we have failed because of the pursant of teaching Irish to teach childern a second and third language.

maninasia

Godge wrote: »

The famine was in the century before last. It is a long time since Irish was widely spoken.

The same with Hebrew in Israel, it's not really a good argument you are making here.

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

The same with Hebrew in Israel, it's not really a good argument you are making here.

Hebrew in Israel is the one exception to the rule.

There are hundreds of Chinese dialects dying out due to the advance of Mandarin. Where are Manx, Breton, Etruscan, etc. now?

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

The same with Hebrew in Israel...

What does that have to do with the fact that Irish has not been widely spoken in Ireland for generations?

Bacchus Rex

As someone who speaks fluent Spanish, Portuguese and English, I have and still do use all three languages professionally. I've travelled quite a bit too, pretty much to every continent on this planet over the years. I can tell you all that English is by far the most important language you need to get around. Even when I have worked in countries where I could speak the language, the locals usually bend over backwards to try and speak English with me. Based on my experience, I think it is safe to say that English is today "the" official language of business and international trade.
Of course I don't mean to belittle the importance of speaking other languages. The more you know, the better your prospects. Also, it is a huge plus when you meet someone foreign and you are able to communicate in their language, is a thrill really and it makes for great opportunities to meet very interesting people and really understand other cultures. I don't think we should get too comfortable with our language, just because is one of the most widely recognised, it doesn't mean we shouldn't learn others. In the end, learning other languages and cultures can only enrich you as a human being and make your mind sharper.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

Why is it worth reviving the Irish language for cultural reasons? Should we not focus as someone has suggested on the languages spoken before the Celts invaded?

... because its cultural. As for the pre Celtic languages, can you even name the language you are referring to? You could try reviving it. Good luck with that.

Godge wrote: »

For economic reasons, English will remain the language of business for at least 50, if not 100 years. English as a native language with Manadarin, Portuguese, Russian etc as second languages is the best way to compete.

English is a foreign language on the precipice of a massive decline. The next time the markets crash, English is done for, better learn Chinese in a hurry.

Godge wrote: »

Completely impractical. There is a shortage of teachers qualifies to teach Irish at second level, where are you going to get all the necessary qualified teachers and kindergarten assistants? Certainly not at the rates currently being paid.

Reviving the Irish language one year at a time is eminently possible. The revival of Hebrew was possible, even Cornish was revived from a single surviving speaker. Pay rates would not be a problem if we had massive austerity instead of massive borrowing. Austerity is inevitable anyway when the policies of stimulus fail.

Godge wrote: »

A taxation on English would be in breach of racial equality legislation. It would also be unconstitutional.

... but you said English was a native language. Besides the tax would be for us - the natives. Even if it were unconstitutional (which it wouldn`t) the constitution can be changed. Not that constitutional change would be necessary because even if the Supreme court objected, the policy could be tweaked any which way to circumvent the ruling thereby allowing months or years before the next challenge could be brought. Where there is a will there is always a way.

realitykeeper

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If money and discrimation could have revived the Irish language we would all be speaking Gaelic at present. There has been more money spend teaching Irish than any other subject in the school syllabus. Yet we have failed to revive it. It was compulsary at one time you failed your leaving cert if you failed Irish. You had to reach certain standards to work in the PS and as well to become a national school teacher you need an honnour in Irish before you could enter teaching colleges, it is only recently that they required you to have a higher C for English.

So I cannot see any extra money making a huge difference.

You are talking about how it was done in the past whereas I was talking about how it should have been done in the past and how it can still be done in the future.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

English is the primary buisness language in the world go on holidays to Spain or Italy and the German and Swedish National will be converseing with the Italian or Spainard in what language, Russian, Chineese, Portageese, no in f##king English more than likly.

True but all that will change. English will become irrelevant after the next stock market crash because the Americans, Brits, Irish, Aussies and most Europeans won`t have the money to go on holiday. The Chinese, Russians, Brazillians and Indians will trade with each other and expand into the third world. The west is finished.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

We are lucky it is our primary language.

In that case our luck is about to run out. If we are to remain lucky, gotta learn the languages of the BRICS.

maninasia

djpbarry wrote: »

What does that have to do with the fact that Irish has not been widely spoken in Ireland for generations?

Google is your friend.

maninasia

Godge wrote: »

Hebrew in Israel is the one exception to the rule.

There are hundreds of Chinese dialects dying out due to the advance of Mandarin. Where are Manx, Breton, Etruscan, etc. now?

There's no rule to anything.

Languages can come and go, things change.

That doesn't mean Irish couldn't be used and re-introduced in Ireland. It could, but it would take a big effort, new ways of teaching and using it and real cultural change, that's all.

English would still be there and perhaps the main language, but it doesn't mean Irish couldn't be successfully reintroduced or used on a daily basis. In the end the Irish language is part of Irish culture. This has been well known to governments for centuries.

Even in China and Taiwan, there are strong movements to teach and preserve local dialects.

A language is a kind of cultural repository, and when you lose the use of your own language, you lose part of your culture.

Farmer Pudsey

realitykeeper wrote: »

In that case our luck is about to run out. If we are to remain lucky, gotta learn the languages of the BRICS.

It will not be necessary in our life time and unlikly in our childern's either. The BRICS tend not to learn each other language either they convers in Russian Portageese, Chineese no I think the mainly converse in Irish ...sorry missprint English.

History tells us a lot even after the decline of the Roman Empire Latin was use as a buisness/medical/religous language. Now I know that it had the benifit of religion through catholism however it took a long time to replace. To replace English would take a few hundred year's cannot se it happening even if your assumption about the fall of the western economy's happens.

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

Languages can come and go, things change.

That doesn't mean Irish couldn't be used and re-introduced in Ireland. It could, but it would take a big effort, new ways of teaching and using it and real cultural change, that's all.

English would still be there and perhaps the main language, but it doesn't mean Irish couldn't be successfully reintroduced or used on a daily basis. In the end the Irish language is part of Irish culture. This has been well known to governments for centuries.

Even in China and Taiwan, there are strong movements to teach and preserve local dialects.

A language is a kind of cultural repository, and when you lose the use of your own language, you lose part of your culture.

You see, we are operating on different levels here. You think culture is lost, I think it evolves. Big difference. Humans don't need gills any more (if they ever had them) or webbed feet, no need to hang on to what has gone.

You would be more correct to say that when you lose the use of your own language, you lost part of your heritage. Heritage is for museums. By definition, it is no longer part of your culture as culture is living, heritage is dead.

realitykeeper wrote: »

... because its cultural. As for the pre Celtic languages, can you even name the language you are referring to? You could try reviving it. Good luck with that.

English is a foreign language on the precipice of a massive decline. The next time the markets crash, English is done for, better learn Chinese in a hurry.


Reviving the Irish language one year at a time is eminently possible. The revival of Hebrew was possible, even Cornish was revived from a single surviving speaker. Pay rates would not be a problem if we had massive austerity instead of massive borrowing. Austerity is inevitable anyway when the policies of stimulus fail.


... but you said English was a native language. Besides the tax would be for us - the natives. Even if it were unconstitutional (which it wouldn`t) the constitution can be changed. Not that constitutional change would be necessary because even if the Supreme court objected, the policy could be tweaked any which way to circumvent the ruling thereby allowing months or years before the next challenge could be brought. Where there is a will there is always a way.

English is not on the brink of a precipitous decline. It is the language of commerce, it is the language of computing, of the internet, it is the language of media.

You are dreaming if you think Irish can be revived. Money would be better spent cataloguing Irish for future generations to study to learn about their heritage.

djpbarry

realitykeeper wrote: »

... because its cultural. As for the pre Celtic languages, can you even name the language you are referring to? You could try reviving it. Good luck with that.

English is a foreign language on the precipice of a massive decline.

It really isn’t, but anyway, you want Ireland to abandon English in favour of Irish?!? Seems to me your argument is based on little more than nationalism and a desire to see the demise of the Anglosphere.

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Chinese, Russians, Brazillians and Indians will trade with each other and expand into the third world.

I wonder what language the Chinese, Russians, Brazilians and Indians use when conducting international trade?

maninasia

Godge wrote: »

You see, we are operating on different levels here. You think culture is lost, I think it evolves. Big difference. Humans don't need gills any more (if they ever had them) or webbed feet, no need to hang on to what has gone.

You would be more correct to say that when you lose the use of your own language, you lost part of your heritage. Heritage is for museums. By definition, it is no longer part of your culture as culture is living, heritage is dead.




English is not on the brink of a precipitous decline. It is the language of commerce, it is the language of computing, of the internet, it is the language of media.

You are dreaming if you think Irish can be revived. Money would be better spent cataloguing Irish for future generations to study to learn about their heritage.

There are many cases around the world where language was imposed top down , English and Mandarin Chinese being famous examples.
The same could be done to some extent in Ireland if people really wanted, but of course that won't happen.

So it's not impossible, it's just unlikely to happen.

A more likely route to promotion of the Irish language is through Irish schools and institutions and local communities.

Culture and heritage are intertwined. A culture can't exist without a heritage. Even in multi-ethnic places with a relatively short modern history like the US or Canada you have people identified by their mixed heritage and culture. Chinese Canadian, Irish American, Hispanic etc.

maninasia

djpbarry wrote: »

It really isn’t, but anyway, you want Ireland to abandon English in favour of Irish?!? Seems to me your argument is based on little more than nationalism and a desire to see the demise of the Anglosphere.
I wonder what language the Chinese, Russians, Brazilians and Indians use when conducting international trade?

English isn't going to be bumped off anytime soon, but the use of Russian, Chinese and Spanish is extremely widespread worldwide. They are all extremely useful languages to know.

Perhaps in 10-20 year real-time translation devices will start to cause the relative demise of English, since it's expensive and a pain in the arse to learn for non-native English speakers.

djpbarry

maninasia wrote: »

There are many cases around the world where language was imposed top down , English and Mandarin Chinese being famous examples.
The same could be done to some extent in Ireland if people really wanted, but of course that won't happen.

What would be the point?

maninasia wrote: »

English isn't going to be bumped off anytime soon, but the use of Russian, Chinese and Spanish is extremely widespread worldwide. They are all extremely useful languages to know.

I'm not suggesting it's not useful to learn languages other than English, but when an Indian trade delegation visits Brazil, there's only one language that they'll all be speaking and it ain't Chinese.

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

There are many cases around the world where language was imposed top down , English and Mandarin Chinese being famous examples.
The same could be done to some extent in Ireland if people really wanted, but of course that won't happen.

So it's not impossible, it's just unlikely to happen.

A more likely route to promotion of the Irish language is through Irish schools and institutions and local communities..

It is impossible.

English and Manadarin Chinese were imposed centuries ago in societies without travel.

Hebrew was imposed in a closed defensive society before modern communication.

It is impossible to impose a language in a modern democracy that uses the internet etc. In a country with a history of outward mobility, it would be a joke to suggest it.

maninasia wrote: »

Culture and heritage are intertwined. A culture can't exist without a heritage. Even in multi-ethnic places with a relatively short modern history like the US or Canada you have people identified by their mixed heritage and culture. Chinese Canadian, Irish American, Hispanic etc.

Where are all the Irish Americans speaking Irish as their first language?

Of course heritage and culture are intertwined.

Heritage is to culture what great-great-grandparents are to children. Dead, vaguely known and understood, but still an influence on who you are.

maninasia wrote: »

English isn't going to be bumped off anytime soon, but the use of Russian, Chinese and Spanish is extremely widespread worldwide. They are all extremely useful languages to know.

Perhaps in 10-20 year real-time translation devices will start to cause the relative demise of English, since it's expensive and a pain in the arse to learn for non-native English speakers.

Star Trek here we come.

maninasia

You just keep up making excuses such as 'exceptions to rules' and 'impossible'. The widespread use of Hebrew in Israel blows that all apart!

Even now in China Mandarin Chinese is being introduced in a top down (and bottom up) approach in in rural areas and non Han areas.

And star trek is on it's way much sooner than you think.

The smartphone in your hand
Google glass
Watson and AI
Private spaceships
Electric Cars
Robots
Drones
Quantum Computers
Metamaterials
...and much more to come

In fact real-time translation devices already exist, they just aren't good enough yet. Things are changing quickly, too quickly to accurately predict exactly what the world will be like in 20 years.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/26/google-universal-translator-prototypes/

Godge

maninasia wrote: »

You just keep up making excuses such as 'exceptions to rules' and 'impossible'. The widespread use of Hebrew in Israel blows that all apart!

Even now in China Mandarin Chinese is being introduced in a top down (and bottom up) approach in in rural areas and non Han areas.

You have English, Hebrew and Mandarin Chinese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language

I have 91 in the attached list.

3 out of 94 falling under the headings of "exceptions to the rule" is probably about right.

The list doesn't include dead languages such as Latin and Sanskrit.

It also doesn't include the list of endangered languages of which there are hundreds (of which Irish is considered one), some of these languages have as few as 70 speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_endangered_languages

maninasia

It doesn't matter, as I said, it depends on the way the language is integrated into daily life, the education system and also the benefits from speaking said language.

There's no rule, just doing it effectively or not, is it supported or not etc.

Signed Cap'Kirk from my Nexus Starblazer Quantum Phone

realitykeeper

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

History tells us a lot even after the decline of the Roman Empire Latin was use as a buisness/medical/religous language.

Yes but today Latin is a dead language. Doesn`t bode well for English does it. As for the BRICS not learning each others languages, that was true until recently. Now not only are they learning each others languages, so too are millions of people in English speaking countries. When the economies of the English speaking countries become basket cases, in the near future the BRICs may still communicate in English but for how long? Not for generations I can assure you. I would give it ten years tops before it is phased out.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

English is not on the brink of a precipitous decline.
You are dreaming if you think Irish can be revived.

You are the one who is dreaming, you just don`t know it yet. English will be a useless language to the capitalist/market driven world when the QE experiment fails in the west. The BRICs countries will not bother with English when the us and uk cease to participate in market capitalism. If Esperanto did not become a major world language why would English retain international influence? Of course Irish can be revived and you know it.

realitykeeper

djpbarry wrote: »

I wonder what language the Chinese, Russians, Brazilians and Indians use when conducting international trade?

Hardly Esperanto that didn`t catch on. I reckon they will use each others languages within ten years of America`s demise.

realitykeeper

Godge wrote: »

Money would be better spent cataloguing Irish for future generations to study to learn about their heritage.

Why bother when technology will enable the whole world to use the Irish language within a few years.

maninasia

It sounds completely far-fetched, but it is actually possible within 10-20 years!

Of course you'd still need a device to interface...until the brain gate takes care of the telepathic communications for ya.

micosoft

realitykeeper wrote: »

I agree that levels of illiteracy are far too high but why waste time becoming literate in a declining language like English when they can become literate in a language with a future? The "soft power" (to quote a recent report in an influential Chinese newspaper) of cultural influence which the English language enjoyed in the past is rapidly coming to an end. This is because the US, UK, Canada, Australia and Ireland are all quickly becoming economic basket cases. The aforementioned countries with the possible exception of Canada, are so addicted to debt that they are collectively partaking in economic suicide through various means of quantitative easing.

People like Max Kaiser and Peter Schiff confirm this fact but sadly they are being ignored by all but a very small minority of Right wing heroes of congress in the US. Capitalism once made America great but the US is no longer capitalist in a fundamental sense. China however is capitalist and therefore China (and its main language) is destined for greatness.

LOL. Someones been listening to too much US talk radio...

Farmer Pudsey

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes but today Latin is a dead language. Doesn`t bode well for English does it. As for the BRICS not learning each others languages, that was true until recently. Now not only are they learning each others languages, so too are millions of people in English speaking countries. When the economies of the English speaking countries become basket cases, in the near future the BRICs may still communicate in English but for how long? Not for generations I can assure you. I would give it ten years tops before it is phased out.

Yes but it took 1200 years after the fall of the roman empire before it began to fail. Then it was the reglious reformation that started it decline. It was still taught as a subject to a large proportion of the population until the mid 20th centuary.

And why was this because the structure to use it were in place in every country. It was compulsory for medicine. What similarity has that with English English is the language of the internet and much the same will happen if your off the wall prediction comes through.

recedite

realitykeeper wrote: »

Why bother when technology will enable the whole world to use the Irish language within a few years.

Yes, there are people all over the planet who can hardly wait for that great day to arrive