Do you cringe when you see the confederate flag?

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http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/25/opinion/obeidallah-confederate-flag/index.html wrote:

(CNN) -- You can debate whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. But the one thing you can't dispute: The Confederate flag was flown by traitors to the United States of America who slaughtered more than 110,000 U.S. soldiers.

I know some will take issue with my calling the Confederacy a band of traitors, but let's be blunt -- that's what they were. They broke from the United States and created their own nation, calling it the Confederate States of America. They issued their own currency, elected their own president and Congress, raised an army and went to war with the United States of America, firing the first shot at Fort Sumter, South Carolina.

What's even more troubling about the so-called Confederate flag we see so often is that it was not the official flag of the Confederacy. It's worse than that. The flag commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Why is that worse? Because this was the flag carried on battlefields by Confederate troops during the Civil War as they killed U.S. soldiers.

And yet people still proudly display the Confederate flag.

We saw it fly at a recent tea party rally in Washington. Last week, two high school students displayed the Confederate flag after another student brought a gay pride flag to school. Even rapper Kanye West is selling souvenirs with Confederate flags emblazoned on them during his new tour (although many say that he doesn't mean to honor the Confederacy).

Why would anyone display a flag that was flown by a nation that viewed the United States as its enemy? And yes, I know that some like to claim euphemistically the Civil War was simply a war between brothers, but it was not. It was far more lethal.

Just read some of the speeches made by the president of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, and it's clear the Confederate states viewed the United States as a sworn enemy. Davis made it clear that Confederate forces would kill any U.S. military personnel that dared step foot in the Confederate nation.

He even threatened and taunted U.S. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant with the warning: "Our cavalry and our people will harass and destroy his army as did the Cossacks that of Napoleon, and the Yankee General, like him will escape with only a bodyguard." (As a reminder, in 1812 the Russian Cossacks slaughtered thousands of Napoleon's troops and drove Napoleon's forces from Russia.)

Davis, in his address to the Congress of the Confederate States in 1861, boasted of "a succession of glorious victories" over the U.S. military, noting that the Confederate troops had, "checked the wicked invasion which greed of gain and the unhallowed lust of power brought upon our soil."

He also bragged about success over "the enemy," the United States: "When the war commenced, the enemy were possessed of certain strategic points and strong places within the Confederate states. ... After more than seven months of war, the enemy have not only failed to extend their occupancy of our soil, but new states and territories have been added to our Confederacy."

Simply put: This was a war between the "wicked" United States forces and a people who had sworn their allegiance to another nation, raised a military and successfully killed U.S. soldiers.

This history alone should dissuade anyone from ever displaying the Confederate battle flag on U.S. soil again. But for those still on the fence, these words from the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, explaining the genesis of the Confederacy should end any doubts -- as well as make your blood boil.

In 1861, Stephens explained to a cheering audience that the Confederacy was founded to expressly reject the proposition that men of all races were equal. Instead, Stephens stated, "The foundations of our new government are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

So if you are about to display the Confederate flag, please first think about that statement by the vice president of the Confederacy. Or kindly give some thought to the U.S. soldiers killed by people carrying that flag. Hopefully, that will move you to refrain from it.

Despite my deep opposition to the Confederate flag, however, there's one place that I hope it will be displayed forever: American history museums.

There, it can serve as tribute to the brave U.S. troops who sacrificed their lives to preserve our nation and remain as a constant reminder of how close we came to no longer being the United States of America.

Great article, one I agree with entirely. I do cringe every time I see the flag. Do you?

ProudDUB

No

Yep, and I cringe even more when I see Irish people (from one particular county usually) wave it around at sporting events here, without having the remotest clue as to what it stands for, or even worse, knowing and yet not caring about how offensive it is. :mad::mad::mad:

Stone Deaf 4evr

History is written by the victors of whatever war is waged. The u.s. itself waged war on the British with the war of independance, had the rebellion been quashed, would we be having thesame disblcussion about the stars and sstripes? Even our own failed (and fail it did) uprising in 1916 is remembered and celebrated. All aspects of history should be studied and remembered.

ProudDUB

No

Studying and remembering what happened in the past is one thing. Waving around a flag that is a symbol of slavery and oppression is another thing entirely. The stars and strips isn't offensive. The Confederate flag very much is.

silja

No I do not cringe, and that is a very one sided article.

frag420

I cringe when I see that woman from last summer who I puked on when trying to chat up when I was drunk.

I dont cringe when I see a piece of cloth regadless of the pattern on it.............

Pawwed Rig

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Great article, one I agree with entirely. I do cringe every time I see the flag. Do you?

I think it is a bit unfair to some of the confederate soldiers. Generally in these wars they are just poor uneducated people forced to fight for whatever side of a border one happens to be on.
Funnily enough I think the image of the Stars and Bars still represents lack of education whether it be Kanye West, Cork fans, the Dukes of Hazard or some po bukra high up in the Appalacians.

I was visiting the Capitol Building in Austin Texas a few years ago and as you may know they are very proud of their history (Sam Heuston etc) of independence and rebellion but less so about the Civil War. On the floor of one of the halls is a tiled representation of the flags that have flown above the Capitol Building. Nowhere in the montage did the southern flag appear. When I asked the guide why, he told me that they thought it was inappropriate to show it! I would be of the opinion that as part of their history they should remember the bad times with equal importance to the moments they are proud of.

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No

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think it is a bit unfair to some of the confederate soldiers. Generally in these wars they are just poor uneducated people forced to fight for whatever side of a border one happens to be on.
Funnily enough I think the image of the Stars and Bars still represents lack of education whether it be Kanye West, Cork fans, the Dukes of Hazard or some po bukra high up in the Appalacians.

I was visiting the Capitol Building in Austin Texas a few years ago and as you may know they are very proud of their history (Sam Heuston etc) of independence and rebellion but less so about the Civil War. On the floor of one of the halls is a tiled representation of the flags that have flown above the Capitol Building. Nowhere in the montage did the southern flag appear. When I asked the guide why, he told me that they thought it was inappropriate to show it! I would be of the opinion that as part of their history they should remember the bad times with equal importance to the moments they are proud of.

The only place, IMO, which The Confderate (war) flag should be flown is in a museum or on the graves of the fallen confederate soldiers. That's how it should be remembered. The political flag of the Confederacy—the so-called "Stars and Bars"—is one thing. The battle flag of the Confederate army, the most militant symbolic form that secession and slavery ever took, is quite another. Under this fiery cross of St. Andrew, the state of Pennsylvania was invaded and free Americans were rounded up and re-enslaved. Under this same cross, it was announced that any Union officer commanding freed-slave soldiers, or any of his men, would be executed if captured. (In other words, war crimes were boasted of in advance.) The 13 stars of the same flag include stars for two states—Kentucky and Missouri—that never did secede, and they thus express a clear ambition to conquer free and independent states.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

History is written by the victors of whatever war is waged. The u.s. itself waged war on the British with the war of independance, had the rebellion been quashed, would we be having thesame disblcussion about the stars and sstripes? Even our own failed (and fail it did) uprising in 1916 is remembered and celebrated. All aspects of history should be studied and remembered.

That point of view is far too balanced and educated. I demand you join the ranks of your peers in hysteria.

dave2pvd

Cringe? No.

I have a different reaction, a rather judgmental one: idiot.

I always try to get a good look at them, as I am building a mental database of physical features common to idiots. One day, I hope to be able to able to identify idiots simply by their appearance - without them even having to act or speak! How wonderful will that be? Think of all the time saved...

coylemj

I don't get upset when I see rednecks flying the Confederate flag, any more than I get upset when I see silly men in bowler hats and orange sashes marching through towns and cities in NI in July and August every year carrying banners commemorating an event which happened more than 300 years ago.

What upsets me is when I hear that there are flagpoles outside governors' mansions and state capitols in some southern US states which fly the confederate flag, that is surely offensive in the extreme to the African-American citizens of those states.

Aprilmay

Living in the south I see it but its mostly in South Carolina (we pop over the state line for cheaper gas). The reason why I don't see it in South Charlotte probably has a lot to do with all the people from NYC, NJ, RI & LI that live here.

But the first thing that comes to mind when I see it is racist, Redneck or uneducated I usually I see it on the front of a pickup truck of some sort!

clairefontaine

This is typical of Northeastern hypocricy.

The North needed a labor force due to the advent of the industrial revolution, they were not any more ideologically pure than the south.

FFs. And you have a right to secede from the Union. Unfortunately that is practically impossible now.

coylemj

clairefontaine wrote: »

The North needed a labor force due to the advent of the industrial revolution, they were not any more ideologically pure than the south.

and the South needed a labour force to harvest the cotton crop and work as general farm labourers.

It's true that most manual workers in the North were subject to brutal working conditions with scant if any attention to safety in factories and mines but at least the workers were free agents, were not whipped like animals by the boss and they got paid at the end of the week.

clairefontaine

coylemj wrote: »

and the South needed a labour force to harvest the cotton crop and work as general farm labourers.

It's true that most manual workers in the North were subject to brutal working conditions with scant if any attention to safety in factories and mines but at least the workers were free agents, were not whipped like animals by the boss and they got paid at the end of the week.

Yeah until they went up north and got greeted by a bunch of off the boat starving Irish who were willing to work for even less money.

tayto lover

Flegs nothing but flegs.

Pawwed Rig

coylemj wrote: »

It's true that most manual workers in the North were subject to brutal working conditions with scant if any attention to safety in factories and mines but at least the workers were free agents, were not whipped like animals by the boss and they got paid at the end of the week.

Not really true actually as more often than not the worker had lttle choice on how they lived their life or spent their money and they were often treated badly by employers upto and including death. Where a owner had slaves they would have to feed them and shelter them whereas the average worker received payment for their work which was not necessarily enough to enable their families to be fed. An owner did not want to kill his slaves as they were expensive and would have to be replaced. The employer did not have this problem.

We still rely on slave labour by the way. The cost of employing all of those workers that make our cheap products in Asia is much less than the cost of maintaining slaves.

clairefontaine

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not really true actually as more often than not the worker had lttle choice on how they lived their life or spent their money and they were often treated badly by employers upto and including death. Where a owner had slaves they would have to feed them and shelter them whereas the average worker received payment for their work which was not necessarily enough to enable their families to be fed. An owner did not want to kill his slaves as they were expensive and would have to be replaced. The employer did not have this problem.

We still rely on slave labour by the way. The cost of employing all of those workers that make our cheap products in Asia is much less than the cost of maintaining slaves.

And our anti slavery laws do not include prisoners. It's disgraceful.

Rachineire

Has anyone ever heard of the saying heritage not hate? I am from the south, from the capital of the confederacy. I had family fight in the civil war as well. The flag means a significant part of history and a tie to home for me. I understand that some people find it offensive and that there are ignorant people who have used it to spread racism and fear but that is not what the flag was intended for and not what it means to many people.

dave2pvd

Rachineire wrote: »

Has anyone ever heard of the saying heritage not hate? I am from the south, from the capital of the confederacy. I had family fight in the civil war as well. The flag means a significant part of history and a tie to home for me. I understand that some people find it offensive and that there are ignorant people who have used it to spread racism and fear but that is not what the flag was intended for and not what it means to many people.

I see your point. However, I see no need to fly it or have it on a vehicle.

After years of dormancy, the flag made its comeback in the 50's and 60's as a response to desegregation. My state, Georgia, did its part by changing the state flag to one that incorporated the newly fashionable 'rebel flag'. So to argue what the flag is intended for is a sticky subject.

So to many people its a symbol of oppression and hate. To others it celebrates (?) heritage. I think the need to not hate outweighs the desire to fly flag of the Army of Tennessee. Incidentally this was never the official CSA flag.

I like to suggest to folks who insist on celebrating Southern heritage that they fly this flag, the original CSA flag that flew over the capital of the confederacy from the beginning of secession. It doesn't quite have the same effect though, does it?

rockonollie

No

I cringe at the ignorance of people.......I've encountered many who don't even know that the confederate flag was flown by the forces of the south......they just think that it's a flag that represents country folk.

alastair

what do I think of when I see the confederate flag?

Just'a good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm.
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born

Staightnin' the curves
Flatnin the hills
Someday the mountain might get 'em
But the law never will

Makin' their way
The only way they know how
That's just a little bit more
Than the law will allow.

Makin' their way
The only way they know how
That's just a little bit more
Than the law will allow.