Finding Detailed Election Results

DazMarz

Might be the wrong forum for this, but if so, mods feel free to move or delete.

With the Local Elections coming up in the next while, I've been approached to get involved in a campaign of a young candidate who is going for his first outing. Between it all, I somehow got appointed Director of Elections for his campaign at a meeting held. I had been approached myself to run and had seriously started going for it, before I backed off due to work and family commitments.

One of the things I want to get my hands on more than anything would be a detailed analysis of the previous Local Election (2009) results. Not just the bare bones of how many votes and transfers each candidate got across the district, but actual figures for each individual ballot box across the boundary. I was given some results for the general election of 2011, but obviously that's not worth a lot.

I'd need the 2009 Local Election results, the really detailed ones. We are looking to see exactly which councillors pulled the most votes out of our area (we haven't had a councillor from our town for years, so we're intrigued to see who was doing well in the town). I don't know if these are publicly available or if we'd have to apply to get them or whatever. I'm completely new to this Director Of Elections thing and I'm just looking to help out what I can.

I've already searched the hell out of the Dept. Environment's website, independent websites about elections in Ireland, the lot. All only had the very general overview with no in depth look at the boxes, which is what I'm after.

Anyone have any ideas? Anything is much appreciated. Thanks!

ArmaniJeanss

Maybe try some of the local papers as they've definitely carried the individual ballot breakdown so by definition they must know where to source such figures.
e.g., my local freesheet Dublin Northsidepeople or something was able to say that BallotBox XXX which was MyEstate house numbers 1-340 had 27 first preferences for Candidate YZ.

echo beach

What you are looking for are unofficial tally figures so you won't see them on the web. They are compiled by party workers at the count centers and are the property of those who collected them. Usually the main parties work together and then pool the figures (they can co-operate when it suits them). Journalists in the local papers usually have a 'contact' who would supply them with the figures in return for something of course.
If your friend isn't a member of one the main parties, or perhaps is but is standing against somebody with a well established base, then they will have difficulty getting the information.
A few inquiries at your local paper may be the best approach but politics is a slippery business so be discreet.;)

DazMarz

Good advice so far. Never knew that such information was NOT publicly available.

I would have been standing as an Independent, as is my friend. So that rules that out. But one of the people we have on board as a campaign manager of sorts was a former councillor who was in a party (I won't say which one). So maybe he'd be able to wrangle something for us.

Thanks a mil for that information; that will save me a lot of senseless trawling looking for something that I won't find!

Annasopra

You dont get detailed votes from boxes you only get tallies which are estimates. If you searched through physical newspaper archives you could get them.

Fr Tod Umptious

mango salsa wrote: »

You dont get detailed votes from boxes you only get tallies which are estimates. If you searched through physical newspaper archives you could get them.

Is this correct ?
As far as I was aware the details published in local papers after the count was the actual votes, not tallies
My local paper (in Kerry) always had a box by box breakdown

OP, why not get your hands on copies of the local papers for the publication date after the count in 2009 and see what they reveal , that would not be too difficult to do.

Jolly Red Giant

electionsireland.org

You will need some contact in one of the parties to get the tally results - some of the local papers do publish them, but not all.

Jolly Red Giant

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Is this correct ?
As far as I was aware the details published in local papers after the count was the actual votes, not tallies

These numbers are based on the tally figures provided at the count - the actual count is not conducted on a box-by-box basis.

echo beach

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

These numbers are based on the tally figures provided at the count - the actual count is not conducted on a box-by-box basis.

Correct. The boxes are opened and each vote is taken out and the TOTAL number of votes in each box is counted to make sure it agrees with the number recorded by the presiding officer as being cast. This ensures that the box hasn't been 'stuffed' with ballots that weren't cast by genuine voters and that no votes get 'lost' during the counting process.
While this is being done the votes are unfolded and placed face up and this is when the tallymen do their work, counting how many votes each candidate got. The parties also have a personating officer at each polling station so have a record of who exactly turned up to vote, (which is possibly even more valuable info if you can lay hands on it) and this is then combined with the tally figures to inform where canvassing should be targetted.
Only after every box is opened and the total is verified as correct are the votes separated into those for each candidate and then counted into bundles of fifty or one hundred.
For the smaller rural polling stations where there may be less than a hundred votes cast and maybe only one or two for a particular candidate I always feel that tallies come close to interfering with the secrecy of the ballot.

Fr Tod Umptious

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

These numbers are based on the tally figures provided at the count - the actual count is not conducted on a box-by-box basis.

Of course, that makes sense now

Jolly Red Giant

echo beach wrote: »

The parties also have a personating officer at each polling station so have a record of who exactly turned up to vote, (which is possibly even more valuable info if you can lay hands on it)

This is actually illegal under the 1923 Electoral Act (and the amended Act in 1992). Each candidate is entitled to have a personation agent at each polling station and this agent is entitled to challenge the identity of any voter. The personation agent has no legal entitlement to 1) get your polling card or 2) get your identity - they can only challenge you entitlement to vote when you request a ballot paper. The only person who can request you to prove your identity is the polling clerk. Furthermore, it is against the law for the personation agent to remove any register of electors from the polling station if it contains any details of who has voted. The political parties have been flouting the law for 90 years with the way they have been abusing the electoral system.

Every time I have voteed in an election over the past 30 years I have refused to give my name or hand over my polling card to the personation agent. Each time the agent has got annoyed until I point out that they are breaking the law and that they can be subjected to a €3000 fine or three months in jail because of their insistence in identifying voters without challenging their identity in the presence of the polling clerk. I even had one instance when a personation agent asked other voters who I was and I had to call a garda over and indicate that the agent had no legal entitlement to do this and he was breaking the law by trying to obtain my identity from other voters. Not surprisingly the garda didn't know the law - but I was able to produce a copy of the Act which I always carry with me when voting. I insisted that the garda confiscate the copy of the electoral register that the agent was using which really sent the agent in absolute apoplexy.

echo beach

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Furthermore, it is against the law for the personation agent to remove any register of electors from the polling station if it contains any details of who has voted. The political parties have been flouting the law for 90 years with the way they have been abusing the electoral system.

I didn't know that. Obviously I wouldn't have suggested it if I knew it was illegal but as you say it is a widespread practice. At our local school there are three separate polling stations and the personating officers sit just inside the door checking polling cards and 'helpfully' telling voters which classroom to go to. I had no idea they have no right to do this.

Jolly Red Giant

echo beach wrote: »

I didn't know that. Obviously I wouldn't have suggested it if I knew it was illegal but as you say it is a widespread practice. At our local school there are three separate polling stations and the personating officers sit just inside the door checking polling cards and 'helpfully' telling voters which classroom to go to. I had no idea they have no right to do this.

The purpose of the personation agent is solely the prevention of personation by voters - nothing else -

Section 60 (3) Electoral Act 1992

A candidate or his election agent may appoint one person (in this Act referred to as a “personation agent”) to be present as the candidate's agent in each polling station for the purpose of assisting in the detection of personation, and such appointment shall be in writing.

To demonstrate that agents are not allowed remove the any written information from the polling station

Part III Section 22 (4) of Electoral Abuses Act 1923

No personation agent shall while the poll remains open leave the polling station to which he is allotted without previously obtaining the permission of the presiding officer and depositing with the presiding officer all registers, books and documents in which he has made any note, writing or mark during the poll, which registers, books and documents shall be returned to him on his return to the polling station.

Part III Section 22 (5) of Electoral Abuses Act 1923

Any personation agent who leaves a polling station in contravention of the foregoing sub-section shall not be permitted to return to such polling station until after the close of the poll, and shall in addition to any other penalty be guilty of an offence under this Act and be liable on summary conviction to a punishment not exceeding three months' imprisonment with or without hard labour.

The basis on which a personation agent can challenge the identity of a voter is outlined as follows

Section 111 (2c) of 1992 Act

the returning officer or presiding officer may, and if so required by a personation agent present in the polling station shall, put to any person when he applies for a ballot paper, but not afterwards, the following questions, or any one or more of them
(i) Are you the same person as the person whose name appears as AB on the register of Dáil electors now in force for the constituency of?
(ii) Have you already voted at this election?
(iii) Had you reached the age of eighteen years on (date of coming into force of the register)?

And here in 111 (2d)

the returning officer or presiding officer may, and if so required by a personation agent present in the polling station shall, administer to any person when he applies for a ballot paper, but not afterwards, an oath or (in the case of any person who objects to taking an oath on the ground that he has no religious belief or that the taking of an oath is contrary to his religious belief) an affirmation

Section 25 (1) 1923 Act

If at the time any person tenders his vote at an election or at any time after he has voted and before he leaves the polling place any personation agent lawfully present in such polling place declares to the returning officer or a presiding officer that he verily believes and undertakes to prove that such person is committing or has committed the offence of personation, the returning officer or such presiding officer shall direct a police constable to arrest such person on the charge of having committed the offence of personation.

Among the things that the establishment parties use the personation agents for is to find out who has voted so they can send someone to visit people who have not voted and get them to the polling station.

Section 28 (1) of the Electoral Act 1923 (and section 137 of 1992 Act) states the following -

Every officer, clerk and agent in attendance at a polling station shall maintain, and aid in maintaining, the secrecy of the voting in such station, and shall not communicate, except for some purpose authorised by law, before the poll is closed to any person any information as to the name or number on the register of electors of any elector who has or has not applied for a ballot paper or voted at that station

The electoral machines of the establishment parties have - for decades - flouted these laws and continue to do so in every election - and they go ballistic when anyone challenges them on it.

echo beach

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The purpose of the personation agent is solely the prevention of personation by voters - nothing else -

Among the things that the establishment parties use the personation agents for is to find out who has voted so they can send someone to visit people who have not voted and get them to the polling station.

The electoral machines of the establishment parties have - for decades - flouted these laws and continue to do so in every election - and they go ballistic when anyone challenges them on it.

I have experience of somebody I didn't know from Adam call to my house about 7pm on the day of an election offering to drive me to the polling station station, although it is only a short walk away. I declined saying I would make my own way and they then reminded me 'not to forget X' before going on to the next house. Maybe some people appreciate this 'service' and I know some use it to get their shopping done etc but I find it silly to see people with their own transport or within walking distance of a polling station being taxied there.

Can anybody put an end to what you have shown clearly is illegal activity? Is it not the role of the county register to ensure elections are run legally? Could a result be overturned on this basis?