Letting your Child(U18) Store/Have a Gun in their Room

1shot16

Cass wrote: »

Then the OP goes through the same procedure that we all did, was deemed safe, and competent, granted a license, and now it/he is criticised based on his age. I know grown men that shouldn't have guns, have lapses in good judgement, break the law yet based on their age they are called fools, and not a danger.

When you think of how hard it is to get a license which is compounded when you are young, and then have the fact that the parents may not like guns or not interested it's a tough uphill climb to get youngsters involved without our own turning on them (to a degree)

It wasnt the easiest thing to get a licence for a rifle in this country and at my age!Also the fact that between safe, license ,gun etc i must of spend around 1,000 euro and if i knew what was necessary at the start i might not have bothered to get a license but im glad i did because i fully enjoy the hunting and shooting and hope to get into target shooting when im older and also clay.I also had to convince both my parents which wasn't easy at the time how do you put it softy to your parents when your 16 that you want a gun.

Better your child spending my money on something good like hunting, clay shooting and target shooting than what most other 16 year olds waste their money on (fags and other illegal substances!)

One shot on kill

1shot16

The problem I see is that if your licensed to carry/use a firearm that doesn't mean you are safely able to do so.

The fact that u18 have to convince there parents to let them get firearms

Ah don't worry MA sure ill have to do a safety coarse and pass before I get it sure it will be all ok. I PROMISE MA PLEEEEASE.

Ok son good ahead sure I may let him him he is under pressure with his leaving and girls and can't get his place on the football team sure won't it stop him from hanging around outside the shop with his hood up.

The problem here is the parents are as uneducated about firearms and the youth getting them and it has been said here on boards more times than I care to remember the safety coarse are an ok foundation to start from but them by no means make you competent to carry a fire arm safely.

Sure we all know people that are shooting years and still need more education.

Its a completely different story if its a hunting family obviously.

Cass

Looks like i did jinx it.

thelurcher wrote: »

I'm not saying or even implying that they should introduce mental health checks at all.

But you said (mockingly i presume) they don't do full Psych checks. That they don't ring the referrees or GP in the majority of cases. This all implies you believe the current level of checks to insufficient.

What would you suggest be done? How would you guarantee that a child deemed fit will not be suddenly unfit?

If you're complaining have the conviction to stand by your opinion, and if you're not then why bring it up?.

I'm saying that the current process doesn't go very far at all towards proving a child is responsible enough to own a firearm so parents should act responsibly themselves in making the right preparations - is that unreasonable?

So you are criticising the current checks and do indeed want something more substaintial done.

The current system in place is more than enough if only it were applied in full. Same with other issues surrounding firearms. The laws are there just the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

The rest of your post above is pretty much pointless because I was clear that I'm talking about what the parents should do - not asking for politicians to introduce more legislation.

Pointless? It seems it's more of an inconvenience for you to answer as it hits on the topic of the thread.

Parents, other than refusing permission for the gun to be stored in their home, have no control over licenses, guns, etc. That's what the Gardaí and politicians are for.

What age did you have your first gun at?

I also asked what checks you got (if you're old enough to have gone through the licensing process 20+ years ago) when you applied for your first license. Did you offer/volunteer GP info, medical info, referees, security guarantees, etc, etc. Or did you simply sign a one page form like the rest of us?

If so what made the Gardaí think you were fit to hold a gun? What made you think you were fit? Where did you store your gun?

Also what makes you more fit to hold a gun now than a 16 old? What guarantees are there that once licensed you will not go off the rails?


The system is not perfect, and it works on a coupling of trust of the applicant and what checks can be performed by an under staffed and severely deficient Garda force.

tac foley

How different it all is here. To get a target-shooting gun license here you must be a full member of a Home Office-approved gun club, and may only apply for your license after a six-month provisional membership. At the end of that, the club secretary and two other people, not members of the club or police officers, but in 'good standing' and must have known you for at least two years, must act as your referees, stating that as far as they know, you are not a firearms incident waiting to happen. Of course, the club secretary, as well as everybody else in the club, will have had a chance to get to know you over that time, too, and anything that might cause concern will have been discussed.

In the ultra-rare event that the club secretary, for some reason, does NOT support the application, he will advise the applicant of this decision before he makes an application, and tell the applicant the reasons why. If the applicant still insists on making the application, that is up to him or her, but the words on page 3 from the club secretary will nix the whole thing in the bud. If the applicant leaves the club without applying, but has been deemed to be an unsuitable person to be a gun-owner by the club secretary and the referees, then the club secretary is STILL required by law to notify the county firearms licensing unit of this decision, in case the applicant 'tries his luck' elsewhere. The question 'Have you ever been refused a firearms license? If so, when and where?' is part of the documentation.

Here we also have to give permission for the police to talk to our doctor, if they feel that it is necessary - usually the case where the applicant has the form of diabetes where you can conk out with little or no warning - not good if you have a loaded firearm in your hands.

tac

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Parents, other than refusing permission for the gun to be stored in their home, have no control over licenses, guns, etc.

Although in general if a parent contacted the local super and testified against their child's suitability to hold a firearms licence (because the word is parent and not friend for a reason), the local super isn't going to argue with them and will pull the licence.

So in reality the parents have all the control they require to do the job.

Personally, I shot my first .22 and first air rifle at 18. My parents differed in their opinion on this - my father had no issues with it at all, my mother expressly forbade me to join the rifle club in college (she was not a fan of firearms but only knew them in the context of hunting rabbits, she didn't even know they were used in a sport, let alone in the Olympics -- she's completely changed her mind about them since discovering that side of things). So that year (I was 17 at the time) I didn't join DURC; I joined them the next year without their permission or knowledge (I would have just turned 18 at that point). I don't recall ever climbing a clock tower with a rifle and I seem to have done okay in the sport over the last two decades or so, so even imperfect beginnings can work.

I think the thing here is that the safety issue isn't a simple one. It has a lot of cultural factors, a lot of individual case factors and context is critical. So one single simple rule is going to be about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

Although in general if a parent contacted the local super and testified against their child's suitability to hold a firearms licence (because the word is parent and not friend for a reason), the local super isn't going to argue with them and will pull the licence.

As a general rule that is not specific to parents. Any person could do the same and end an application before it begins.

However how likely is it to reach that level. Most children (U18s) would not go against their parent's wishes, and as said above the one factor a parent does have, other than ringing the Super and hoping his/her decision is the same as theirs, is to deny permission for the gun to be stored in their home. Regardless of phone calls to the Super this is the only sure fire way i know that will end an application. Barring the child moves out the home.

............. my mother expressly forbade me to join the rifle club in college .............

I see that stuck

I think the thing here is that the safety issue isn't a simple one. It has a lot of cultural factors, a lot of individual case factors and context is critical. So one single simple rule is going to be about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

Agreed.

As i've said multiple times there are no guarantees. A child of 16 may or may not be trust worthy. However is they satisfy all the legal requirements and are granted a license then there is the trust that they can act responsibly. The same can be said for an adult. The amount of time a person has a firearm is not a guarantee they are any more or less of a risk. There is a certain amount of trust afforded to an adult due to age than younger people do not get. Sometimes that trust is misplaced.

The safety record for sports shooting in this country speaks for itself. It is a more self policed sport than any law demands, and thankfully that trust has been repaid in kind.

I simply do not like the notion that due to age a person is somehow unfit.

Deerspotter

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

I know plenty of guys who had licenses when they were 16.
None of them would have even wanted the gun in their bedroom.
Why would you want to give up precious bedroom space for an ugly gun-safe?
Stick the gun safe in a closet in some other room, out of the way. (mounted correctly to a concrete wall)
Keep it out of your bedroom.

I've no issue at all with 16 year old's that have a requirement for a gun (hunting or target practice), to have one.
But when it is not in use, it should be kept out of sight and out of mind, not just for you, but for other visitors to your house also.

Your friend says to his friend that he knows someone with a gun. His friends big brother is a criminal. Your house is all of a sudden on the target list to be robbed.
If your gun is robbed (and a safe only slows them down for about a minute if they come prepared) then wait and see how hard it is to get your license renewed.

I would not let my kids have a gun on their bedroom, or even take it out of the safe outside of exactly when it is needed to hunt or shoot paper - NO EXCEPTIONS.

1shot16

Would putting the safe in a closet with warm pipes be a bad idea really would be the only place i could put it other than my room.Its hidden in my room btw.

Sometimes I do take it out when i dont need it to hunt or shoot targets just to admire it

Sparks

Deerspotter wrote: »

Your friend says to his friend that he knows someone with a gun. His friends big brother is a criminal. Your house is all of a sudden on the target list to be robbed.

1. That's relatively unlikely - as we've been saying here for a very long time, criminals do not want to steal a single-shot air rifle or a CZ bunnywhacker and generally get their firearms through other means and don't tend to get the kind of thing that u-18s readily get licenced for; and
2. I've been burgled before (with the rifle in the gun safe in my bedroom at the time) and according to both my experience and the information from the gardai, 99% of burglars just won't go for firearms unless they're literally lying out on a table somewhere, they certainly won't try hauling the safe off or cracking it open there and then because 99% of burglaries are opportunistic and the burglars take small, easily concealable items that can be resold readily for high enough prices to make it worth it. So they'll take a sock from the laundry basket, dump rings and jewelry and iPhones into it and shove it down their crotch and walk off with it; but cracking into your gunsafe to get your Anschutz doesn't happen in 99% of cases (and those 1% of cases are what monitored alarms, house insurance and being somewhere else at the time are all for because that 1% of cases are properly nasty and vicious and the few times we've seen them have tended to be RFDs being attacked by gangs for whole storerooms of stuff, not someone's air rifle being swiped).

I'm not saying don't worry about secure storage (and neither are the gardai or the laws); I'm just saying that a bit more realism is a good idea. When 99% of burglaries are prevented by locking your doors and windows and setting the alarm before you leave home to go to work for the day, you should be focussing on locking the doors and windows and setting the alarm before you go to work every day, not worrying about repelling a fullblown house invasion because little Mikey's best friend's brother thinks Love/Hate is an instructional video. And if someone did target you, wait till you were out, bypass the alarm, pick the lock, crack the safe and make off with your .410 and a box of shells, then you wouldn't be refused a licence next time round because you did everything reasonably expected of you and fulfilled your obligations under the law. There's a noticeable lack of a requirement in the law about defeating Tom Cruise's Mission Impossible team of breakin artists with the cables and the sweat detection floors and all that; and an equally noticeable lack of a requirement for you to get your skull cracked by an assailant if you had the misfortune to be home when some nasty piece of work decided to call in and break your fingers until you opened the gunsafe. That kind of thing is beyond the "reasonable diligence" limit...

garv123

bravestar wrote: »

That's just being lazy. I have gone to considerable lengths for mine to be concealed completely, at little cost but with a lot of elbow grease and thought.

Lazy??

Right so, where do you suggest I keep it so.. your options are as follows.

• My mothers room, she'd be impressed when I get home at all hours after lamping to lock it in there
• My brothers room, likewise
• The kitchen, only wall space beside the table.
• The sitting room, maybe hang it over the tv since theres no free wall space?
• The bathroom, I could put a sponge on the end of the barrel to wash my back?
• The hall way, beside the front door? so every person who knocks on the door can see it.
  

Bit silly saying its just lazy when you've no idea about the layout or size of other peoples houses

BattleCorp

No way

I've no problem with someone 16 having the gunsafe in their bedroom.

I wouldn't treat them any different to an adult.

If they are licenced, then they fulfil all the criteria needed to be deemed safe with a gun. If the licencee is safe with a gun in the field, or at the range, then there's no reason to believe that they will be unsafe with it at home.

It's up to the 16 year old to show responsibility and obey all the rules surrounding firearms, as it is for us adults to do the same too.

kfod

If there was a problem with option 3, because the parents were not licensed you could do like tac does, put the keys in a combination locked box which the youngster knows the combination of but parents don't, and give that to the parents. That way there is a parental check on when the gun is being used but they have no access.

iverjohnston

well, 1shot16,, I don't know the layout or construction method of your house, but is there access to the roof space from the landing? Could you bolt the safe to the gable wall in the roof space, and if there is a block built chimney brest all the better, bolt on two sides. Out of sight and out of mind for others .

1shot16

iverjohnston wrote: »

well, 1shot16,, I don't know the layout or construction method of your house, but is there access to the roof space from the landing? Could you bolt the safe to the gable wall in the roof space, and if there is a block built chimney brest all the better, bolt on two sides. Out of sight and out of mind for others .

Yes there is but its only a crawl space so that wouldnt work.

bravestar

garv123 wrote: »

Lazy??

Right so, where do you suggest I keep it so.. your options are as follows.

• My mothers room, she'd be impressed when I get home at all hours after lamping to lock it in there
• My brothers room, likewise
• The kitchen, only wall space beside the table.
• The sitting room, maybe hang it over the tv since theres no free wall space?
• The bathroom, I could put a sponge on the end of the barrel to wash my back?
• The hall way, beside the front door? so every person who knocks on the door can see it.
  

Bit silly saying its just lazy when you've no idea about the layout or size of other peoples houses

Do what you want pal, but I would put money down that you could build some form of false wall/ concealment/ trap door if you really put your mind to it. I did. I'm not a builder or a tradesman of any kind. I don't live in a big house with loads of space. I've no skills in that area but I learned because I do not want my firearms taken while I'm not around.

Am I paranoid? I don't think so. Should the unthinkable ever happen, I will know I did everything I possibly could to avoid it.

biggebruv

i would not

what if your not there one evening the mates come round have a few laughs and something happens

yellowlabrador

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

when I moved, I had no gunsafe in my house at first. I broke up the gun and chained the stock and mechanism to the central heating pipes in the attic. the stock by itself is safe enough. Funnily enough I did get a check up from the local police (this was abroad) and they were satisfied. I started shooting at an early age and so did my children. We were always taught that gun etiquette was to keep all guns in the safe and ammunition in a separate safe.

1shot16

biggebruv wrote: »

i would not

what if your not there one evening the mates come round have a few laughs and something happens

I dont hold the keys when friends r around my mam holds them shes aslo licensed on the gun.

yellowlabrador wrote: »

when I moved, I had no gunsafe in my house at first. I broke up the gun and chained the stock and mechanism to the central heating pipes in the attic. the stock by itself is safe enough. Funnily enough I did get a check up from the local police (this was abroad) and they were satisfied. I started shooting at an early age and so did my children. We were always taught that gun etiquette was to keep all guns in the safe and ammunition in a separate safe.

Having two safes is a bit much hiding the ammo maybe or leaving empties in a box in the safe that would fool any robbers :P

Cass

biggebruv wrote: »

what if your not there one evening the mates come round have a few laughs and something happens

You must be talking about them falling in the yard or something as the gun is locked in a safe, and whether the OP is there or not they would have no access to the firearm.

If the OP was not there i can say with a high degree of certainty that his Mother or Father would not open the safe and hand the gun to his mates so they can "have a few laughs".

The post is pointless, not thought out, and bordering on scare mongering.

madred006

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

Cass wrote: »

You must be talking about them falling in the yard or something as the gun is locked in a safe, and whether the OP is there or not they would have no access to the firearm.

If the OP was not there i can say with a high degree of certainty that his Mother or Father would not open the safe and hand the gun to his mates so they can "have a few laughs".

The post is pointless, not thought out, and bordering on scare mongering.

The post is very much to the point if you take the time to read it . I'm sure he means if the parents are not there and his mates come round . Take time to read the post from all angles before going off on a rant .

Cass

madred006 wrote: »

The post is very much to the point if you take the time to read it .

I did read it, and it's pointless.

I'm sure he means if the parents are not there and his mates come round .

If he meant that then he should write that and not rely on you to come to his rescue with suppositions and speculations on his intended meaning.

Secondly are you listening to what you are trying to peddle. As i said above if his parents are not there, and he is not there then no one has access. If his parents are not there and he is then he has more common sense than to "play" with a firearm. The OP also said earlier in the thread that his mates are not into guns so the fascination you seem to imply is there (to make this pointless point stick) is moot.

Lastly you are trying to imply that the OP having gone through all this grief to obtain his firearm will throw it away by acting the dick with his mates, and showing off.

Have you a firearm? Do know what has to be done to get one? If you do then you know it's not something to piss away on a teenage show off session. If you don't then you haven't a clue whats required, and show not throw such frivolous statements about in a vain attempt to scare monger with "what of"" scenarios.

Take time to read the post from all angles before going off on a rant .

Once again i did, and it's not a rant. If i go on a rant you'll know.

biggebruv

i was just answering the question thats in the threads title

my answer was no thats just IMO chill dude lol

madred006

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

Cass wrote: »

I did read it, and it's pointless.

If he meant that then he should write that and not rely on you to come to his rescue with suppositions and speculations on his intended meaning.

Secondly are you listening to what you are trying to peddle. As i said above if his parents are not there, and he is not there then no one has access. If his parents are not there and he is then he has more common sense than to "play" with a firearm. The OP also said earlier in the thread that his mates are not into guns so the fascination you seem to imply is there (to make this pointless point stick) is moot.

Lastly you are trying to imply that the OP having gone through all this grief to obtain his firearm will throw it away by acting the dick with his mates, and showing off.

Have you a firearm? Do know what has to be done to get one? If you do then you know it's not something to piss away on a teenage show off session. If you don't then you haven't a clue whats required, and show not throw such frivolous statements about in a vain attempt to scare monger with "what of"" scenarios.

Once again i did, and it's not a rant. If i go on a rant you'll know.

I'm not standing up for anyone , it's how I interperated his post and you must have a crystal ball , il get the lottery numbers off you sometime .

Cass

biggebruv wrote:

i was just answering the question thats in the threads title

my answer was no thats just IMO chill dude lol

I am "chilled". As i said to the other poster any rant or lack of chilled-ness on my part will be obvious when it presents.

The thing is you did not just say no. You said he would be alone with his mates (or so the clairvoyant after you states), show off/have a few laughs and anything could happen.

The hoops that must be jumped through to obtain a firearm are among the strictest in Europe, dare say the world. We surrender private information, and give up our rights to privacy to get one. We have the highest safety record of most any sport (most of which is self regulated), and to piss all that away on some show boating exercise goes against everything that people have to do to get one. So other than most likely loosing your firearm you can kiss goodbye to the hopes of getting another.

madred006 wrote: »

I'm not standing up for anyone , it's how I interperated his post and you must have a crystal ball ,

You were quick to jump to the defence of said poster, with your interpretation of what s/he did or did not mean. Then accused me of going off on a rant. I replied and then you ignore the post in it's entirety, and again accuse me of "using a crystal ball" when it was you that predicted what the poster meant, not i.

So based on your rigorous defence, and you deep understanding of another posters intentions i presumed you were the one with the crystal ball (as you put it).

il get the lottery numbers off you sometime .

Sure, no problem. 1,2,3,4,5,6

Try them.


Now back to the topic off the thread. The OP is 16, has a license, has the security required, has parents that are licensed, and has satisfied the CPO/Gardaí. To me he has earned the right to store his firearm where he chooses.
Scaremongering about what ifs are pointless and futile. Every possible outcome may occur. you simply choose the options that lessen any possible bad outcome, and move on. Having a postmortem over what may happen will only create a never ending circle of argument, and counter arguments. Especially when those responding have no idea about the intricacies of firearms, and firearm ownership.

madred006

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

Cass wrote: »

I did read it, and it's pointless.

If he meant that then he should write that and not rely on you to come to his rescue with suppositions and speculations on his intended meaning.

Secondly are you listening to what you are trying to peddle. As i said above if his parents are not there, and he is not there then no one has access. If his parents are not there and he is then he has more common sense than to "play" with a firearm. The OP also said earlier in the thread that his mates are not into guns so the fascination you seem to imply is there (to make this pointless point stick) is moot.

Lastly you are trying to imply that the OP having gone through all this grief to obtain his firearm will throw it away by acting the dick with his mates, and showing off.

Have you a firearm? Do know what has to be done to get one? If you do then you know it's not something to piss away on a teenage show off session. If you don't then you haven't a clue whats required, and show not throw such frivolous statements about in a vain attempt to scare monger with "what of"" scenarios.

Once again i did, and it's not a rant. If i go on a rant you'll know.

I believe that your first paragraph was an adequate response to my post .
Firstly , I wasn't implying anything in my post just stating how I understood it <SNIP>
Secondly I never implied anything about the op acting the dick with his gun but things can and will happen and they don't always go to plan much and all as you might like .
Thirdly. What I have or haven't is none of your business , and I'm well aware of the firearms regulations in this country , and I made no frivolous statements in my post nor was I scaremongering anyone .<SNIP>

Cass

madred006 wrote: »

Firstly , I wasn't implying anything in my post just stating how I understood it <SNIP>

Okay then you stated (not implied) it.

Secondly I never implied anything about the op acting the dick with his gun but things can and will happen and they don't always go to plan much and all as you might like .

Never said you did. The other poster whose defense you jumped to did, and by supporting that assertion i raised the point to counter that argument.

Thirdly. What I have or haven't is none of your business , and I'm well aware of the firearms regulations in this country , and I made no frivolous statements in my post nor was I scaremongering anyone .<SNIP>

That's a no so.

The only reason someone reverts to name calling, insults, and accusations of improper conduct is because they cannot construct a response.

So let me explain it for you. When i type in normal font as i have done throughout this thread i am speaking as a normal poster. When i use this font, and the words "MOD NOTE" at the beginning of my post then i'm speaking as a mod. You ignorance to how that works, and your FRIVOLOUS accusations only serve to highlight your inability to hold a proper debate.

"MOD NOTE"

Now the MOD hat is on. Next time you accuse me of acting improperly simply because i am a mod your access to this forum will be revoked. Using the "your a mod, you should know better" card is a sign of a weak argument, and desperate attempt to deflect from your shortcomings. A mod is as entitled to respond as a user as any other poster.

madred006

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

Cass wrote: »

Okay then you stated (not implied) it.

Never said you did. The other poster whose defense you jumped to did, and by supporting that assertion i raised the point to counter that argument.

That's a no so.

The only reason someone reverts to name calling, insults, and accusations of improper conduct is because they cannot construct a response.

So let me explain it for you. When i type in normal font as i have done throughout this thread i am speaking as a normal poster. When i use this font, and the words "MOD NOTE" at the beginning of my post then i'm speaking as a mod. You ignorance to how that works, and your FRIVOLOUS accusations only serve to highlight your inability to hold a proper debate.

"MOD NOTE"

Now the MOD hat is on. Next time you accuse me of acting improperly simply because i am a mod your access to this forum will be revoked. Using the "your a mod, you should know better" card is a sign of a weak argument, and desperate attempt to deflect from your shortcomings. A mod is as entitled to respond as a user as any other poster.

Well I believe that you overstepped the mark in your attack on my first post , and as such would like this to be looked at further please .

Cass

madred006 wrote: »

Well I believe that you overstepped the mark in your attack on my first post , and as such would like this to be looked at further please .

Done.

I have notified the CatMods, and directed them towards this thread. As a result your participation in this thread has ended until a decision from them has been reached.

The Aussie

biggebruv wrote: »

i would not

what if your not there one evening the mates come round have a few laughs and something happens

Cannot happen if legally held firearm is stored correctly, so nothing happens.

madred006 wrote: »

I'm sure he means if the parents are not there and his mates come round .

Still cannot happen if legally held firearm is stored correctly, so nothing happens {again}

In fact if 1shot16 is not there in the first post and as you read it in the second the parents are not there, that means no one is home and the "mates" will be charged under a whole myriad of offences.
And no I don't think for one second think 1shot16 or what ever hypothetical person will be skylarking with said "mates".

AngryHippie

Yes but rules to be set(keys of safe given to parent at night)

IMHO

No.

Just no, no need for discussion imo, regardless of the license, you are not yet a responsible adult in the eyes of the law, which means someone else has to bear the responsibility.

An argument about having a safe is also pointless. If its in a safe, why the hell would you put the safe in a kids room.
Parent's room, hot-press, anywhere else is a better option.
That being said, when I was 19. the gun-safe ended up in my wardrobe. only two guns, both for vermin control, and always locked. no drama

Kids are kids, and do stupid things all the time, even smart kids, even good kids. A gun is just a very quick way to regret something for the rest of your life. I did some real stupid sh1t when I was 17, and it was only luck that made it a lesson instead of a lifelong regret.

Personally, I think of a gun as a tool. If you don't need it for something, why have it. I don't get any satisfaction from firing one (and I have), I don't particularly enjoy hunting (and I have). But I do understand some people do get enjoyment from the above. I just think that for the sake of 12 months....wait until you are an adult, and can be held responsible as such. At that point in time, you are your own responsibility, and anything that could possibly go wrong, you must take the blame for, instead of jeopardizing a parent.

Out of curiosity, how regularly do you shoot at night ?

Its a good illustration of how boards gives a voice to every and any thought and opinion.

Be patient, and stay safe.