Danske bank to close retail customer accounts

JimsAlterEgo

has anyone gotten a reply yet, other that the we think we are ok doing this but will look into it

Kid Nothing

Folks, anyone have any experience from the first round of account closures regarding debits which have since been sent to the account number. The girlfriend didn't change her details with work to her new account in PTSB in time and so they sent her wages to the now closed NIB account. Work are saying they've sent the money so there's nothing that they can do until it's bounced back to them but NIB are saying the account is closed so there is no way the money is with them. Surely they implemented a system to bounce back any payments that went to closed accounts? Anyone have any input/experience? Cheers

ABC101

I've changed everything over to AIB, and all was going smoothly... when one of my direct debits then switched back from AIB to Danske last month.

The crowd who wanted the debit blamed the SEPA change over back in February... anyway no big deal as both my accounts are still active.

In relation to failed lodgement / transfer for your girlfriend... the money should come back to the sender account if the details don't match up.

Sounds like her HR dept don't know what they are doing... or could not be bothered to check if the money has been re-deposited in the company account.

Kid Nothing

ABC101 wrote: »

Sounds like her HR dept don't know what they are doing... or could not be bothered to check if the money has been re-deposited in the company account.

Cheers for the response, it does sound like this to me. They're based out of Spain as well so getting a hold of someone is a nightmare. Time to put more pressure on!

nicky5mx

FYI.......Just got the official reply today from DB regarding my complaint re: Offset Mortgage.

As expected they are sticking to their guns and not changing their minds. Saying that they are giving a 1% discount as a goodwill gesture........what a joke !

They are hiding behind Clause 8.1 of "Special terms and Conditions for offset Mortgages and current Account offsets" which they also sent to me today. This is the first time I saw this document and it is dated November 2012. I signed my mortgage in 2006 and now they are producing terms and conditions dated 2012 !!! I do not remember signing or agreeing to these 2012 terms and conditions unless they can impose them without the customer knowledge ?

In my opinion the whole thing stinks. I think they are trying to pull a fast one here and are acting dishonestly. I am obviously going to refer this matter without delay to the FSO and I hope Padraic Kissane will assist us if he can..

If anybody wants to get a copy of the "Special Terms and Conditions" that they are hiding behind please pm me and I will send a copy. They will be sending the same response letter and copies of the T&C's to all people who have lodged official complaints.

I am not going to give in and will see this out to the end !

dolallyoh

Straight to the Ombudsman so. I expect my PFO to be in the door tomorrow so.

kennM

My initial thoughts on said response is to ask them to produce a copy of those terms and conditions that I have signed. I don't believe they can change the terms and conditions associated with an agreement without agreement on both sides?

What standing do we have here? I'm suspecting they can't do that? i.e. implied agreement without explicit consent

ABC101

Not sure if this is a relevant post....but here goes anyway...

I remember a few years ago.... I was using the Danske On line banking... then a change occurred... and I could not log on unless I agreed to certain terms and conditions.

Previous to this... we were all collectively forced to use Danske online banking as they were closing the national branch network.

It was then after this...whilst using the online banking for a while... that I had to agree to new terms and conditions or I would not be allowed to log on. I think the new terms and conditions were displayed... but several pages long.

Anybody remember that event??????? I think it was about 2 years ago... perhaps more?

I wonder was that the moment Danske were changing our terms and conditions?

Anybody any thoughts?

Sir Chops

ABC101 wrote: »

Not sure if this is a relevant post....but here goes anyway...

I remember a few years ago.... I was using the Danske On line banking... then a change occurred... and I could not log on unless I agreed to certain terms and conditions.

Previous to this... we were all collectively forced to use Danske online banking as they were closing the national branch network.

It was then after this...whilst using the online banking for a while... that I had to agree to new terms and conditions or I would not be allowed to log on. I think the new terms and conditions were displayed... but several pages long.

Anybody remember that event??????? I think it was about 2 years ago... perhaps more?

I wonder was that the moment Danske were changing our terms and conditions?

Anybody any thoughts?

That could be it. These lads aren't fools. They will be steps ahead of ye

JimsAlterEgo

Terms and Conditions are not binding unless fair

Sir Chops

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Terms and Conditions are not binding unless fair

Best of luck trying to get a binding ruling on what's fair or not

JimsAlterEgo

Sir Chops wrote: »

Best of luck trying to get a binding ruling on what's fair or not

thats for the ombudsman

JimsAlterEgo

nicky5mx wrote: »

FYI.......Just got the official reply today from DB regarding my complaint re: Offset Mortgage.

As expected they are sticking to their guns and not changing their minds. Saying that they are giving a 1% discount as a goodwill gesture........what a joke !

They are hiding behind Clause 8.1 of "Special terms and Conditions for offset Mortgages and current Account offsets" which they also sent to me today. This is the first time I saw this document and it is dated November 2012. I signed my mortgage in 2006 and now they are producing terms and conditions dated 2012 !!! I do not remember signing or agreeing to these 2012 terms and conditions unless they can impose them without the customer knowledge ?

In my opinion the whole thing stinks. I think they are trying to pull a fast one here and are acting dishonestly. I am obviously going to refer this matter without delay to the FSO and I hope Padraic Kissane will assist us if he can..

If anybody wants to get a copy of the "Special Terms and Conditions" that they are hiding behind please pm me and I will send a copy. They will be sending the same response letter and copies of the T&C's to all people who have lodged official complaints.

I am not going to give in and will see this out to the end !

This is the clause, I certainly have no knowledge of agreeing to these T&Cs and certainly wouldnt have so either they his them or we were duped into it.

http://www.danskebank.ie/PDF/Offsale/Offsale-Terms-and-Conditions-for-Current-Accounts-Offset.pdf

8. Termination
8.1 This Agreement is of an indefinite duration i.e. it will continue until you or we terminate it in accordance with Clause 4 of the General Terms and Conditions

nicky5mx

I think the other poster was correct when we had to agree to revised T&C's in order to log-in to the internet banking. Get a feeling that they were already getting ready to close the bank back in 2012 and were doing the preparation work to avoid the issue we now have.

That said I do not think they should get away with this and will be going straight to the FSO.

I want to get the complaint to the FSO asap so if anybody has an idea as to how we argue the complaint it would be appreciated. In summary I will outline my complaint as follows;

They are breaking the original mortgage agreement (and I will provide copies of the original documentation in support of this)

We were mis-sold the product as the benefits and savings inherent in the product were presented over the full term of the mortgage agreement.


If anybody has any other suggestions it would be appreciated. I think we should all try and submit a standard complaint to the FSO so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Complaints of a concise and consistent nature will be more appealing to the FSO.

JimsAlterEgo

nicky5mx wrote: »

I think the other poster was correct when we had to agree to revised T&C's in order to log-in to the internet banking. Get a feeling that they were already getting ready to close the bank back in 2012 and were doing the preparation work to avoid the issue we now have.

That said I do not think they should get away with this and will be going straight to the FSO.

I want to get the complaint to the FSO asap so if anybody has an idea as to how we argue the complaint it would be appreciated. In summary I will outline my complaint as follows;

They are breaking the original mortgage agreement (and I will provide copies of the original documentation in support of this)

We were mis-sold the product as the benefits and savings inherent in the product were presented over the full term of the mortgage agreement.


If anybody has any other suggestions it would be appreciated. I think we should all try and submit a standard complaint to the FSO so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Complaints of a concise and consistent nature will be more appealing to the FSO.

in theory yes but such a fundamenatal change should be explained and higlhighted up front and not just buried in the T&Cs of a web logon. Surely all offset mortgages holders shoudl have been sent letter informing them of important changes to their mortgage T&Cs. Cant see hoe anyone would agreed so effectively we were duped into agreeign to them

dolallyoh

Bank shuts all buildings in Ireland and then forces you to agree to closing your offset to login to internet banking ? Yes I can see how that is fair and not at all against any sort of professional code of conduct.

posiedon_regs

I've just done a few calculations on the cost of offset removal using the attached worksheet and it's quite shocking (presuming correct calculations!).

It appears that with 200k of principal outstanding and 170k in the offset account, at 4.6% interest (no prestige account) and repayments of 1400pm, removal of the offset could cost up to 60k in extra interest over the life of the mortgage.

Assumptions:

• Interest Calculated Daily;
• Constant interest rate over the mortgage term;
• Bank maintains its 1% discount for ending the offset over the mortgage term;
• Offset remains constant over the mortgage term.

homer911

Got my letter today - all custody accounts are being transferred to Goodbody's - are they any good?

dolallyoh

posiedon_regs wrote: »

I've just done a few calculations on the cost of offset removal using the attached worksheet and it's quite shocking (presuming correct calculations!).

It appears that with 200k of principal outstanding and 170k in the offset account, at 4.6% interest (no prestige account) and repayments of 1400pm, removal of the offset could cost up to 60k in extra interest over the life of the mortgage.

Assumptions:

• Interest Calculated Daily;
• Constant interest rate over the mortgage term;
• Bank maintains its 1% discount for ending the offset over the mortgage term;
• Offset remains constant over the mortgage term.

Your 170k will earn some sort of interest minus DIRT but yes, its no wonder they are trying to Welch on the deal.

handlemaster

Is it necessary with ptsb to set up a current account to service the mortgage payment with danske ? Also other Direct debits ?

Sir Chops

posiedon_regs wrote: »

I've just done a few calculations on the cost of offset removal using the attached worksheet and it's quite shocking (presuming correct calculations!).

It appears that with 200k of principal outstanding and 170k in the offset account, at 4.6% interest (no prestige account) and repayments of 1400pm, removal of the offset could cost up to 60k in extra interest over the life of the mortgage.

Assumptions:

• Interest Calculated Daily;
• Constant interest rate over the mortgage term;
• Bank maintains its 1% discount for ending the offset over the mortgage term;
• Offset remains constant over the mortgage term.

Why didnt you factor in the interest earned on the offset accounts with another bank?

josip

posiedon_regs wrote: »

I've just done a few calculations on the cost of offset removal using the attached worksheet and it's quite shocking (presuming correct calculations!).

It appears that with 200k of principal outstanding and 170k in the offset account, at 4.6% interest (no prestige account) and repayments of 1400pm, removal of the offset could cost up to 60k in extra interest over the life of the mortgage.

Assumptions:

• Interest Calculated Daily;
• Constant interest rate over the mortgage term;
• Bank maintains its 1% discount for ending the offset over the mortgage term;
• Offset remains constant over the mortgage term.

We don't have an offset mortgage, but from my understanding you only get a benefit from the money that is in your current account.
Does Danske pay any interest on this?
Is there an opportunity cost to keeping 170K in an offset account?
For example, a ten year government bond wil give an AER of 2.66% DIRT free.
Over the lifetime of the mortgage, would the interest compounded on this "offest" some of your calculated loss from the removal of the offset?

Is it valid to add the 1% discount being offered by Danske to the 2.66% opportunity cost and whatever small effective interest rate you are paying at the moment and compare that number to a full 4.6% variable rate?

posiedon_regs

Sir Chops wrote: »

Why didnt you factor in the interest earned on the offset accounts with another bank?

My thinking here was that, yes, the offset cash can be used to generate interest minus (DIRT+PRSI), but liquidity may have to be sacrificed. With the offset facility, 170k in this example can be kept in a current account with instant access, ATM, chequebook facility etc and still be offset. To replace it would require a current account offering interest of 9% pa.

Therefore, to compare like with like, the spreadsheet above assumes that the offset savings of 170k sits in a current account in another bank.

Sir Chops

posiedon_regs wrote: »

My thinking here was that, yes, the offset cash can be used to generate interest minus (DIRT+PRSI), but liquidity may have to be sacrificed. With the offset facility, 170k in this example can be kept in a current account with instant access, ATM, chequebook facility etc and still be offset. To replace it would require a current account offering interest of 9% pa.

Therefore, to compare like with like, the spreadsheet above assumes that the offset savings of 170k sits in a current account in another bank.

That's unrealistic surely. Should you not assume a 160k in a savings account eating 3% gross + residual in current account ??!?!!!!!!!!???

posiedon_regs

Sir Chops wrote: »

That's unrealistic surely. Should you not assume a 160k in a savings account eating 3% gross + residual in current account ??!?!!!!!!!!???

By realistic, I presume that you mean that neither you nor I would keep 170k euros in a zero interest current account and you are correct. For example, personally, I would consider investing some cash in a diversified equity fund. Depending on market and fund performance over the lifetime of the mortgage, I may even therefore benefit from Danske's withdrawal of offset!

However, that is not the point. The spreadsheet above attempts to compare "like with like" - no extra risk, the same liquidity and the same facilities. I am not interested in enduring any loss in liquidity or extra risk to facilitate Danske's strategic plans. Remember liquidity is expensive - just consider the interest differentials on savings plans from instant access to 10 year fixed term.

BTW: I would be very interested in the name of a bank offering 3% gross on euro-denominated accounts.

kennM

The simplistic way to look at this is..... you effectively get your mortgage interest rate on all of your current accounts. Dirt free and you have 100% access to the money with no risk as is typically associated to investment s.

josip wrote: »

We don't have an offset mortgage, but from my understanding you only get a benefit from the money that is in your current account.
Does Danske pay any interest on this?
Is there an opportunity cost to keeping 170K in an offset account?
For example, a ten year government bond wil give an AER of 2.66% DIRT free.
Over the lifetime of the mortgage, would the interest compounded on this "offest" some of your calculated loss from the removal of the offset?

Is it valid to add the 1% discount being offered by Danske to the 2.66% opportunity cost and whatever small effective interest rate you are paying at the moment and compare that number to a full 4.6% variable rate?

nicky5mx

Just slotted my figures into your spreadsheet ( great work - how you come up with those formulae ?) and I am amazed how much I am going to loose over the remaining term of my mortgage. There was no opt out clause on the documents I signed when I took out my mortgage with DB eight years ago. What a joke that they produce "Special" T&C's dated Nov 2012 to justify what they are doing is legitimate.

just confirms that we should not let them away with it.

Rock Steady Edy

posiedon_regs wrote: »

I've just done a few calculations on the cost of offset removal using the attached worksheet and it's quite shocking (presuming correct calculations!).

It appears that with 200k of principal outstanding and 170k in the offset account, at 4.6% interest (no prestige account) and repayments of 1400pm, removal of the offset could cost up to 60k in extra interest over the life of the mortgage.

Assumptions:

• Interest Calculated Daily;
• Constant interest rate over the mortgage term;
• Bank maintains its 1% discount for ending the offset over the mortgage term;
• Offset remains constant over the mortgage term.

Shouldn't you get the same outstanding term in cells "Years to pay with offset" [D7] and "Years to pay without offset" [E7] when the sum of the offset accounts (ie you have nothing to offset) [C5] is set to zero?

posiedon_regs

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

Shouldn't you get the same outstanding term in cells "Years to pay with offset" [D7] and "Years to pay without offset" [E7] when the sum of the offset accounts (ie you have nothing to offset) [C5] is set to zero?

The interest rate differs since the "Years to pay without offset" uses the entered interest rate minus 1% to reflect the bank's generous goodwill! Therefore, it is possible to judge whether the loss of offset is worthwhile for you.

As other posters have mentioned there is absolutely no guarantee that this 1% discount will remain over the mortgage term and the bank could hike its SVR as it will no longer be competing for business in the retail market. Therefore the calculated losses on the spreadsheet are likely to be conservative and it could get much worse.

ABC101

posiedon_regs wrote: »

The interest rate differs since the "Years to pay without offset" uses the entered interest rate minus 1% to reflect the bank's generous goodwill! Therefore, it is possible to judge whether the loss of offset is worthwhile for you.

As other posters have mentioned there is absolutely no guarantee that this 1% discount will remain over the mortgage term and the bank could hike its SVR as it will no longer be competing for business in the retail market. Therefore the calculated losses on the spreadsheet are likely to be conservative and it could get much worse.

Indeed banks are more interested in MARGIN than VOLUME... a complete turn around from the noughties.

For those with Custody Accounts.. .interesting article in today's Independent..by Louise McBride 23rd March 2014

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/stay-sharp-if-youre-buying-shares-and-beware-monster-fees-30116471.html