Danske bank to close retail customer accounts

kennM

Jimpopo wrote: »

Just had a letter from the central bank of Ireland and they seem to say that danske are taking heed of customers and agree with their offers to us and finish with......

"The Bank has introduced this additional option following customer feedback and following engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland"

Not looking good if you ask me!

Don't judge the outcome of a race at the start....

The reality is that Danske have altered there position from their original line because they felt they had to. They didn't have a sudden change of mind out of the goodness of their heart and guilt for screwing over their customers.

FYI - I contacted Pepper to ask if the T&Cs were negotiable, personally I'm not happy with them. They don't have clarity here, they're to revert to Dankse and come back tome. Also you have the bear in mind that you are losing of offset effect of the funds you will have in your "current" account (which is now with a different bank) which is servicing your day to day banking cost. Customers should be compensated for same....

Assuming an average balance of €2000 (which between ebs and flows and paying mortgage/bills etc.) is probably conservative, over a 20 year term at current interest rates thats in the ballpark of a couple of grand if offset that we won't see with new "offer".

dolallyoh

Jimpopo wrote: »

Just had a letter from the central bank of Ireland and they seem to say that danske are taking heed of customers and agree with their offers to us and finish with......

"The Bank has introduced this additional option following customer feedback and following engagement with the Central Bank of Ireland"

Not looking good if you ask me!

Just to clarify, this letter was from the Central Bank and not the FSO ?

Jimpopo

dolallyoh wrote: »

Just to clarify, this letter was from the Central Bank and not the FSO ?

Definitely central bank

kennM

dolallyoh wrote: »

Just to clarify, this letter was from the Central Bank and not the FSO ?

Just remember Central Bank and FSO will have completely different remits and interests here. If T&Cs are not negotiable I am very much leaning away from offer and pushing on with FSO process.....

T&Cs very much set Danske up to repeat the process a second time and be perfectly within the new T&Cs to do it. Deck very much stacked in their favour.

Also T&Cs that can't be followed.... for example one stating that we must use internet banking. How? We won't have it... unless they are planning to restrict the once a month and go to the internet banking model which would be better

kennM

Terms and Conditions of new offer are non negotiable.... got onto Pepper, they asked the question and that's the response they got.

Pepper are happy to take any direction questions I may have and pass on accordingly but message is pretty clear that T&Cs are as is.

They are quite different to the original T&Cs that we signed and very much stack the deck in Danske favour second time round with this "offer". I think I know which may my decision is going back to FSO to continue.

kennM

Decision made... no for a number of reasons.... T&Cs (new ones) being a significant factor in decision but a number of other factors.

Informed FSO of decision, on with the complaints process..... best of luck all.

ABC101

kennM wrote: »

Decision made... no for a number of reasons.... T&Cs (new ones) being a significant factor in decision but a number of other factors.

Informed FSO of decision, on with the complaints process..... best of luck all.

Indeed best of luck to you too, however just be cautious you don't incur big legal expenses which could be costly.

IMO, I think the offer is as good as it is going to get, even if it is not perfect, far from perfect in fact.

The rough estimate I put on it, the offer makes sense for those who can maintain a high balance ie 33% at least of the mortgage principle and are comfortable with a max of one withdrawal every 30 days etc

For those with ordinary cash flow day to day banking, I would take the 1% reduction and just concentrate on chipping what I can into the mortgage account to reduce the principle.

But as personal circumstances vary, it is each to their own!!!

kennM

Cheers,

Just a word of caution, do your sums on your individual basis. I've posted a link to spreadsheets on this thread earlier that allows you to do this. I worked out what savings of what they're offering vs what I could offset. New T&Cs are nasty.

No legal bills through FSO. Depending on outcome legal route may be needed

ABC101 wrote: »

Indeed best of luck to you too, however just be cautious you don't incur big legal expenses which could be costly.

IMO, I think the offer is as good as it is going to get, even if it is not perfect, far from perfect in fact.

The rough estimate I put on it, the offer makes sense for those who can maintain a high balance ie 33% at least of the mortgage principle and are comfortable with a max of one withdrawal every 30 days etc

For those with ordinary cash flow day to day banking, I would take the 1% reduction and just concentrate on chipping what I can into the mortgage account to reduce the principle.

But as personal circumstances vary, it is each to their own!!!

yop

kennM wrote: »

Decision made... no for a number of reasons.... T&Cs (new ones) being a significant factor in decision but a number of other factors.

Informed FSO of decision, on with the complaints process..... best of luck all.

Same as you, from our point of view the "offer" is made just to appease the FSO and to try and get us under the new T&C's. Once we were then I guarantee that they will then do the same thing again, this time we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
T&C's have changed.
Access to account is beyond farcical, paper requests to access our money!
Full new mortgage account application required.
No refund for the losses we have incurred.
No negotiation on the T&C's.

So back to the FSO.

jwrbs

As I am fortunate to be able to have a significant proportion of my mortgage "offset" under this new arrangement I am thinking of accepting, and in fairness the offer sort of accords with one of the solutions I had suggested in my FSO complaint.

However, in accepting I am also saying that I will be continuing to pursue them for the losses that have arisen as a result of their breach of contract (ie the additional interest I have had to pay). I have also informed the FSO that I do not want it to "close" my complaint (as they suggested they would do if I accepted) as the solution does not fully compensate me for my loss.

I would suggest there is a risk of someone in my situation not accepting the offer being told by the FSO in any determination that you were given the ability to mitigate most of your loss by taking up the revised offset offer so we are not going to order them to compensate you for that, and because of the 30 day acceptance period you then don't have an ability to take it up.

I do think that the 30 day offer period is very sneaky. Has anyone tried to have that extended until after FSO determination through either approaching bank or the FSO?

kennM

jwrbs wrote: »

As I am fortunate to be able to have a significant proportion of my mortgage "offset" under this new arrangement I am thinking of accepting, and in fairness the offer sort of accords with one of the solutions I had suggested in my FSO complaint.

However, in accepting I am also saying that I will be continuing to pursue them for the losses that have arisen as a result of their breach of contract (ie the additional interest I have had to pay). I have also informed the FSO that I do not want it to "close" my complaint (as they suggested they would do if I accepted) as the solution does not fully compensate me for my loss.

I would suggest there is a risk of someone in my situation not accepting the offer being told by the FSO in any determination that you were given the ability to mitigate most of your loss by taking up the revised offset offer so we are not going to order them to compensate you for that, and because of the 30 day acceptance period you then don't have an ability to take it up.

I do think that the 30 day offer period is very sneaky. Has anyone tried to have that extended until after FSO determination through either approaching bank or the FSO?

I'm largely in the same boat as you however the revised terms and conditions are unacceptable, some contradictory and some cannot be complied with. I also tabled a number of options and this starts to move towards one of those options however.....

It's certainly a step in the right direction, IMO I'm closer to an acceptable settlement than we were but new T&Cs very much stack the deck in favour of Danske..... they are then in a position to make a second attempt and be within the remit of the new T&Cs.

I'd be a lot more tempted if it was based on original T&Cs and a gesture was made with regards to the interest you're going to lose from the monies that will service your "day to day" banking with another institution which also includes an element of good will for what they have put their customers through unjustly!

Rock Steady Edy

What is regrettable in all of this is that there were no staff (left) at Danske that could have said internally that the original proposal for the Offset mortgage couldn't be done because the T&C said so, and picked them off a electronic drive, instead of having their customers to prove it beyond doubt.

Furthermore, in the way they have behaved, it also seems that they have followed a directive, whether it be lead from Ireland or their head office abroad, to deal with the Irish problem as quickly as possible and to minimise any further loss; no doubt individuals have bonuses if they meet certain targets.

Both Danske and the FSO will want to bring closure as quickly as possible to each case, so if it were me I'd be thinking, from the original T&C, what am I happy to live, with and what can't I live without, and tell them that you will sign as long as those conditions (that you are not prepared to give up) are met, and remind them of the conditions you are giving up in order to bring the matter to a conclusion. As long as you are being practical and reasonable, if they are sensible, they'll snap your hands off.

cathk

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

What is regrettable in all of this is that there were no staff (left) at Danske that could have said internally that the original proposal for the Offset mortgage couldn't be done because the T&C said so, and picked them off a electronic drive, instead of having their customers to prove it beyond doubt.

Furthermore, in the way they have behaved, it also seems that they have followed a directive, whether it be lead from Ireland or their head office abroad, to deal with the Irish problem as quickly as possible and to minimise any further loss; no doubt individuals have bonuses if they meet certain targets.

Both Danske and the FSO will want to bring closure as quickly as possible to each case, so if it were me I'd be thinking, from the original T&C, what am I happy to live, with and what can't I live without, and tell them that you will sign as long as those conditions (that you are not prepared to give up) are met, and remind them of the conditions you are giving up in order to bring the matter to a conclusion. As long as you are being practical and reasonable, if they are sensible, they'll snap your hands off.

no they won't snap your hands off they will just take your money, this offer is so sneaky and underhand its not even funny, not signing either

kennM

cathk wrote: »

no they won't snap your hands off they will just take your money, this offer is so sneaky and underhand its not even funny, not signing either

Just curious as to what stage others got to with their complaints before Danske' "offer"? We rejected their offer and just got copy of letter that FSO have sent to Danske with regards to our complaint. Have to say I'm pretty impressed with the nature of the requests they have made of Danske & they have factored many elements of our argument for Danske to clarify. I would assume this is when we get the 200+ page response from Danske??? Can others confirm? Suspect that's the case.

I understand we then have a number of days to respond to their response and then FSO begin deliberating I assume?

yop

kennM wrote: »

Just curious as to what stage others got to with their complaints before Danske' "offer"? We rejected their offer and just got copy of letter that FSO have sent to Danske with regards to our complaint. Have to say I'm pretty impressed with the nature of the requests they have made of Danske & they have factored many elements of our argument for Danske to clarify. I would assume this is when we get the 200+ page response from Danske??? Can others confirm? Suspect that's the case.

I understand we then have a number of days to respond to their response and then FSO begin deliberating I assume?

Our complaint is still with the FSO. Danske sent a letter of offer but we are not accepting it as the T&C's are too limiting and the fact its a new mortgage application.
Have heard nothing since from FSO.

kennM

yop wrote: »

Our complaint is still with the FSO. Danske sent a letter of offer but we are not accepting it as the T&C's are too limiting and the fact its a new mortgage application.
Have heard nothing since from FSO.

Completely agree with you, new T&Cs are unacceptable for various reasons. I got letter from FSO yesterday, putting pressure on Danske bank. They have 20 working days to respond.

yop

kennM wrote: »

Completely agree with you, new T&Cs are unacceptable for various reasons. I got letter from FSO yesterday, putting pressure on Danske bank. They have 20 working days to respond.

Go way, what sort of pressure do you mind me asking, I THINK I am a week or 2 behind you.

What is really pi**ing me off, I did a transfer from my business account they are closing them too, and I did it on the 20th, but it still hasn't hit my account and I can't get into the online version of it!! Danske don't know where its gone to!! !:mad::mad::mad:

kennM

yop wrote: »

Go way, what sort of pressure do you mind me asking, I THINK I am a week or 2 behind you.

What is really pi**ing me off, I did a transfer from my business account they are closing them too, and I did it on the 20th, but it still hasn't hit my account and I can't get into the online version of it!! Danske don't know where its gone to!! !:mad::mad::mad:

Plenty of awkward questions for Danske to answer, I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of it and trying to put together a response.... I'll be going through their response to check and ensure they are all covered off.

Jimpopo

One query I'd have if I were to take up this offer ( which I won't be doing under any circumstances) is, does the money I'm going to put on deposit ( with an institution who can't get out of here quickly enough) go into a pepper account or a danske account and if so are either going to be covered under the Deposit guarantee scheme???

yop

Jimpopo wrote: »

One query I'd have if I were to take up this offer ( which I won't be doing under any circumstances) is, does the money I'm going to put on deposit ( with an institution who can't get out of here quickly enough) go into a pepper account or a danske account and if so are either going to be covered under the Deposit guarantee scheme???

From what I am aware and I open to correction, Dankse will have the money as they have the mortgage, of course until they sell the Mortgage book.
Pepper are only the CS side of Danske.

kennM

Jimpopo wrote: »

One query I'd have if I were to take up this offer ( which I won't be doing under any circumstances) is, does the money I'm going to put on deposit ( with an institution who can't get out of here quickly enough) go into a pepper account or a danske account and if so are either going to be covered under the Deposit guarantee scheme???

Definitely another question to ask... wasn't covered in any of the material. I would suspect (note suspect, please don't take this as an informed opinion in any way shape or form!!!!) that it'd be a Danske account basically being administered by Pepper.

nicky5mx

After giving the matter careful consideration, have decided not to accept the DB proposal and have gone back to the FSO to conclude investigation.

The proposal by DB was almost there but no offer of compensation for offset benefits lost to date or the fact that some monies will have to be held with other financial institutions for day to day outgoings. The operation of the new account was nothing short of a complete joke and an insult to anybody who knows how to use a computer or smart-phone. The new T&C's did not scare me but do not know why we should have to accept. The original T&C's of the mortgage are the only ones I am going to agree to.

Fingers crossed we get a better outcome with the FSO.

dolallyoh

I said more or less exact same myself. Took me 1 min to decide.

Jimpopo

dolallyoh wrote: »

I said more or less exact same myself. Took me 1 min to decide.

Ditto

kennM

Off to adjudication now... Danske sent out their tome of a response, replied accordingly, little bit of back and forth and time to sit back and let the deliberations happen.

Danske have basically confirmed that we never signed terms and conditions that they are quoting to justify their position, they've also confirmed that we were never furnished with a copy of them. They've further tried to justify their position by quoting more from these terms and conditions, that don't apply as they haven't been consented to. They periodically update their website with updated terms and conditions and deem you have got them on that basis. Your continued use of the products implies acceptance of the new terms and conditions..... certainly an air of arrogance in their response & they made some fundamental errors in their responses which was a little unprofessional.

I'll save my own commentary on above.... rollseyes

dolallyoh

Good stuff, so what happens next, is it down to the FSO now to make a judgement and if so is there a deadline ?

kennM

dolallyoh wrote: »

Good stuff, so what happens next, is it down to the FSO now to make a judgement and if so is there a deadline ?

Next step is FSO makes a binding ruling and job done.... don't know what the timeframe is to be honest. I've found the investigator super responsive & very thorough though. Sent our response to the tome yesterday evening. They sent onto Danske this morning. Danske came back this morning, acknowledging some of their errors. FSO replied to me to ask if I wanted to add anything. Said no.... so off we go now.

I just pray that justice prevails in the end of this... Danske have been disgraceful in how they have dealt with this.

dolallyoh

Yes - impressed with the FSO. Good luck with it. I am currently in the red at the moment so it would be great to get a positive result before Xmas.

yop

Definitely agree about the FSO, have been excellent so far, I was incredibly suspicious about the FSO as any banking regulator over the last few years have not come out good from all that has happened.
But they have been v good so far and hoping that we get a result.

JimsAlterEgo

The mind boggles though that the findings dont apply to everyone, thats its on a case by case basis.

kennM

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

The mind boggles though that the findings dont apply to everyone, thats its on a case by case basis.

It'll be interesting to see what way it pans out.... they may look at the (what I see as) 2 factors differently.

1) "Breech of contract"
2) Assuming yes to above then the projected losses.

Perhaps globally rule with regards to breech of contract and then rule individually on a case by case basis on remedial measures, whatever form they may take. Naturally I have preferences but we'll see what comes out in the wash.

yop

kennM wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what way it pans out.... they may look at the (what I see as) 2 factors differently.

1) "Breech of contract"
2) Assuming yes to above then the projected losses.

Perhaps globally rule with regards to breech of contract and then rule individually on a case by case basis on remedial measures, whatever form they may take. Naturally I have preferences but we'll see what comes out in the wash.

Well if they rule for compensation I think I will be affording a new pair of jox!

JimsAlterEgo

could they force them to contact all affected customers or would it be limited to us those went down FSO route

yop

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

could they force them to contact all affected customers or would it be limited to us those went down FSO route

I suspect only FSO route.

robbe

All gone a bit quiet - I wonder if anyone has heard from either the FSO or Danske recently? I am at the 10 days for Danske to respond to further submission prior to investigation (though I thought I was at a slightly later stage prior to the last communication with FSO). Anyone else?

yop

robbe wrote: »

All gone a bit quiet - I wonder if anyone has heard from either the FSO or Danske recently? I am at the 10 days for Danske to respond to further submission prior to investigation (though I thought I was at a slightly later stage prior to the last communication with FSO). Anyone else?

Have heard nothing from them now in 3 or 4 weeks now.

dolallyoh

Ditto. Not since I responded to the Danske offer with a polite No.

kennM

dolallyoh wrote: »

Ditto. Not since I responded to the Danske offer with a polite No.

Same here... said no to "offset".... Danske furnished tome including mistakes to FSO questions. I replied, they replied... over to FSO. Thats about 2 weeks ago now.

Hopefully FSO is waiting on a mail order "bloody big stick" off ebay to hit Danske with?

Jimpopo

yop wrote: »

Have heard nothing from them now in 3 or 4 weeks now.

Nothing here either although spoke to FSO recently and I believe they are now in the final stage

kennM

Turns out Danke bank don't have a copy of the original terms and conditions at play at the time of draw down at our mortgage, they also don't have copies of the terms and conditions during each change over the years....

Either way I'm not really bothered. There is no clause in the original contract allowing for a change in terms and conditions and as such are irrelevant. Naturally the doctrine of reasonable expectations apply, with regards to your accounts being left open for as long as the mortgage is in place.

I think Danske are just going through the motions and fighting each one and accept the loss when it comes??? They've maintained this sense of arrogance that is just disgraceful.....

cunnijo

Hi all

This report from Breakingnews.ie may be an interesting read and mght help your case or it may make you very wary.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/couple-challenges-if-banks-can-hike-mortgage-interest-rates-643797.html

Regards

dolallyoh

Be surprised its an issue, surely all banks can charge whatever they like. I might be missing the point.

yop

dolallyoh wrote: »

Be surprised its an issue, surely all banks can charge whatever they like. I might be missing the point.

I think the High Court are saying the T's & C's are too loss in this case and that in reality the hike to 4% isn't a reflection of "market conditions", where in fact the market conditions are the total opposite.

Doesn't have an direct impact on us, though if this ruling sticks then they will have a flood of cases like this claiming the interest charged was too high..

Have not heard from FSO in 5 weeks now.

nicky5mx

How do we feel about having another go at our dear friends in DB ? My mortgage is split between an Offset and a SVR. Should I get writing to the FSO again ..............just pulled the following from another finance forum.


Today, the High Court overruled a decision by the Ombudsman about the SVR on home loans and on investment properties.

High Court tells Ombudsman to look at Danske Bank's rate increase

The loan agreement said that interest rates would move in line with "market conditions".

The Ombudsman had rejected a complaint , but the customer appealed successfully to the High Court which ruled that this term was vague, and the Ombudsman is to rehear the complaint.

if you have a Danske Bank SVR mortgage...

Check your mortgage agreement.

If it contains this wording, lodge an immediate complaint with Danske Bank asserting that they have not moved the rate in line with market conditions.

They will reject your complaint.

Then make a formal complaint to the Ombudsman.

The 6 year limitation

The Ombudsman may well reject your complaint if the rate first moved away from the ECB rate before October 2008 (6 years ago)

However, as the behaviour is continuing, I believe you are still within your rights to complain.

kennM

Any update from anyone?? things have gone very quite. Waiting for adjudication personally....

dolallyoh

Same - up to 3 months wait. Here is hoping for a happy Xmas ....

yop

Not a word

ABC101

Just logged onto Danske ebanking using the app.

Little message pops up saying the app will expire on December the 4th.

I suppose that will be the same for ebanking on a PC?

I must remember to download any and all statements of everything and put in a secure place.

dolallyoh

It could depend on outcome of our cases actually. They might have to retreat.

yop

Anyone heard anything since. I have not heard a think from the FSO so not sure where we stand. Some seem to be ahead of others, but I would have thought that the FSO would have at least given us an update now after 8 weeks.