Hardest 15 In Your Lifetime.

yellow50HX

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Im a huge fan of mcormack, cork would not won 99 without him.Hes workrate,shown by hes desire hunger to win a ball that was destined for the sideline ,then hit it in,that made deanes vital goal against clare.

He won cork all ireland, won a vital ball to gain a free that Ben popped over to win in 99 for cork.

No where in my post have i questioned mccormack ,cause to cork.I have paid him tribute many time on the cork thread.


What i dissagree is you saying he was a hard man.No way.Tough,but a hard man,that made hes mark,let guys knew he was their,No he did not.



I saw fergal enough times with Avdondu,Mallow,and cork and he was never hard.When he was with the Academy in Mallow he was soft enough,then Ring got him at St colmans and he really came on.He got strong etc.


It depends on what you define Hard.


He was nothing like Niall Mac.Niall won more ball than mccormack ever did.

Niall looked for fights,hit everything that moved,and if it didnt he made it move.

Mccormack took punishment,he was tough,but he never gave it.I dnt think he if ever got booked much.


Mccormack outside of Cococran was cork most vital player,as he made the forwards tick.


He was central to that team.


But he was no where near mccarthy.Mccarthy was a different level.He won an all star,Fergal didnt.


Niall won oceans of high ball ,and held hes own against ken Mcgrath.

Niall Mac has something like 4-41 for cork ,mccormack wasnt a scorer.

Not hes fault,he was a converted wing back,where he made hes debut,then midfielder ,then a cf.

Niall was erratic on hes day but he still was better scorer.The only time i saw fergal score,was three from play above in wexford in a league game,and a flukey goal against waterford in the league in pairc rinn.


Macarthy got a great goal against tipp in killarney in o4 and also against Antrim in 2010 in a q final.

He played excellenty in two finals in a row in 03 and 04 man of the match.

The only thing that let him down in 03 was hes shooting.But he won loads of ball.

And in 06 ,he made the brillant run ,to set Ben up for the goal.


Mccormack was pivotal to cork in 99,as you said the only ball winner.No way did he dominate puckouts then or in 2000.I suggest you watch those games again.

What he did was limit ,and break even with,mcmahon and david kennedy etc,and more of the ball work,dragging centre back out of hes aera ,than actually win ball after ball.


Mccarthy was a way better forager on the breakdown that mccormack.

To say mccormack hasnt been replaced is incorrect,and doesnt do an all star winner in maccarthy justice.


I dnt know what you mean to say cronin doesnt win enough ball.The only ball winner for cork ,with three men hanging of him most days,he has been superb.Again unlike mccormack he scores,goals as well ,rememeber the replayed all ireland final.


He was so good at winnig ball,he was at midfield ,and full forward for cork.

Fair point bout cronin and walsh,but can you name many that got the better of tommy walsh.Mccormack did not face him,but i guarantee you he would not fare much better than what Cronin fared.


He has been sent him,and gave it to maher in 2012.
Mccormack a fine servant, vital to 99 team, JBM said cork wouldnt won without him, owes cork nothing,but not at mccarthys or cronin level in terms of hardness or ball winning,not even close.

Fair point about murphy though, but i wouldnt put him in the rocks league of hardness.

I think we are defining hard and tough differently. Being hard doesn't mean going around pucking the ****e out of fellas and getting booked. I would define a hard man as someone that will stand their ground and give and take the hits and can play thier own game when their oppenant restorts to intimidation and dirty tricks. Any player that will keep leading from the front, playing and showing for ball when he is getting kicked and battered around the place has balls of steel in my eyes.

I wouldn't rate the likes of Paul galvin, Ryan mcmenimien or tommy Walsh in the hard man category any player that has to resort cheap shots to get on top of his oppenant is not being hard. It was always something that I hated when I played espically with my own team mates. Remember giving one my my team mates a bolloxing at half time after he spent the whole 1st half going on about his markers "whore"mother and kicking the back of his leg. The opposition reported him to the ref at half time he got warned but kept it up and was red carded soon after. We lost by a point.

I agree with you in that Niall Mac was a better player then McCormick, he was corks best half forward last year again as he has been many times. Played against him a few times and by f**k he is strong as an ox but he wasn't a player that would dominate you in the air but he was a master at winning the arrowhead pass a few meters to the left or right if he got a head of you there was no way you could win it off him. But like all the cork half forwards he wasn't great under a dropping 50/50 ball that said he was by far and away the best option but was really the only option every team would then place their best ball winner on him.

Pa Cronin is a player that frustrates me because of his strength and height he should beat almost everyone in the air but he doesn't jump for the ball. Got to see him in action up close in a club game a few years ago and he was killing us in the 1st half. We brough on one the football lads to mark him, fella had no hurling but was able to compete in the air and Cronin didn't win a single ball cleanly off him. B- town brought him out to midfield and he cleaned up on loose ball and general play. That said I think his back injury has really effected his mobility which goes to show how well he actually did play for cork this year. For a young man he isn't the same player he was only a few years ago so he will have to work harder to improve his target man work as he can't get around the field like he used to.

Evil_Clown

Seanie McMahon

I played the last 20 minutes of that game with a broken collar bone. The ball broke out from our full-back line and I was following it out. Mark Mullins was coming from midfield and I just got ahead of him and pulled on it. Whatever way I followed through my shoulder was open and whatever happened the collar bone went.
I remember Dr. Quinn came out and Ger was there and the doc said to him that the collar bone was gone. We had used all our subs so Ger hadn’t exactly a very happy look on his face but I said, ‘Look I’ll go up there’ (to the forwards) because at least I’d occupy one of the Cork corner backs. Other than that I wasn’t planning on getting too involved, I just said I’d stand in the corner and force one of them to mark me. An extra man at that stage would probably have been the difference. Luckily it worked out but I have since thought it was just fate the way that year went because things went for us and that was just another break we got.

thinkstoomuch1

yellow50HX wrote: »

I think we are defining hard and tough differently. Being hard doesn't mean going around pucking the ****e out of fellas and getting booked. I would define a hard man as someone that will stand their ground and give and take the hits and can play thier own game when their oppenant restorts to intimidation and dirty tricks. Any player that will keep leading from the front, playing and showing for ball when he is getting kicked and battered around the place has balls of steel in my eyes.

I wouldn't rate the likes of Paul galvin, Ryan mcmenimien or tommy Walsh in the hard man category any player that has to resort cheap shots to get on top of his oppenant is not being hard. It was always something that I hated when I played espically with my own team mates. Remember giving one my my team mates a bolloxing at half time after he spent the whole 1st half going on about his markers "whore"mother and kicking the back of his leg. The opposition reported him to the ref at half time he got warned but kept it up and was red carded soon after. We lost by a point.

I agree with you in that Niall Mac was a better player then McCormick, he was corks best half forward last year again as he has been many times. Played against him a few times and by f**k he is strong as an ox but he wasn't a player that would dominate you in the air but he was a master at winning the arrowhead pass a few meters to the left or right if he got a head of you there was no way you could win it off him. But like all the cork half forwards he wasn't great under a dropping 50/50 ball that said he was by far and away the best option but was really the only option every team would then place their best ball winner on him.

Pa Cronin is a player that frustrates me because of his strength and height he should beat almost everyone in the air but he doesn't jump for the ball. Got to see him in action up close in a club game a few years ago and he was killing us in the 1st half. We brough on one the football lads to mark him, fella had no hurling but was able to compete in the air and Cronin didn't win a single ball cleanly off him. B- town brought him out to midfield and he cleaned up on loose ball and general play. That said I think his back injury has really effected his mobility which goes to show how well he actually did play for cork this year. For a young man he isn't the same player he was only a few years ago so he will have to work harder to improve his target man work as he can't get around the field like he used to.

I agree with a lot what you said their.I thinks its how we term Hard and the misconception it can be valued as.


I do agree with your views on cronin mobility.I said n cork thread prior to replay and after it,only one position for him ,and thats cf next year.Def nt midfield,no pace track back.


Walsh has changed the direction of the wind do.Hes hurling next year.
He ,once he gets touch back,will start at half forward.He will have moderate games at the start,he needs to be kept with.


My worry is cronins hand speed and guile is a second slower what you need against top men.Once he has space,he proved can score goals.But he can lay ball of.He done well up their against mclirney,gave him hes toughest game between u21 and senior all year.


He is def worth a shot ahead of Cussen who is .Nt good enough for extended panel of a cork intermediate team. PA Should be tried at full forward,with one or two others.


I think Cronins pneoumina knocked the wind out of him, a weakened immune systen,and intense physical activity,tempo two finals was never ideal.


He will be better next year.No hurling for the next two months,rest heal the body.


He will be a vital player cork next year,leadership.


With walsh hurling, if its a success ,then Cronin has only one option inside.

Harnedy ,too fast and mobile,nt to be cf.Will dominate for Cork for years.Blessed with a fantastic temperament, never forgets where came from,work ethic is second to very few.A few lads n team,could learn from him,dnt do talking in media ,do it on the field.


Lehane will only be a half forward.Walsh mobile and fast unlike Cronin.


And for the first time in yonks,Cork have a line,with pace,hurling ,aggression,and two main ball winners,but also a forager ,like a blindside in rubgy in Harnedy,but also any of lehane,walsh and harnedy can win ball, turn and run at the heart of defences,as both are fast,great engines ,but young.

Harnedy i said it after ist game june,is a special player.He will become one of corks greats,and captain in the making.This year,started get cards ,and beginning to lay down hes mark.IF like in the drawn game he wasnt protected,he took law in to hes hands in the replay.

Strong from the inside out.


We need that edge.Once he doesnt cross the line in to stupidity thats fine.As daraggh o se said,,and Eddie Brennan,said ,protect yourself ,at all costs ,if ref wnt,but be cute ,dnt draw attention of the ref.

I said all summer ,he would be timmy,niall mac,tomas mul rolled in to one.


He has all those players attributes and so much more.

This guy in time will be better than those.Thats how Great he will be.

Walsh has proven temperament at the top level,and for the first time in senior intercounty in years,has a proven management team ,that will improve hes game no end.

megadodge

Syferus wrote: »

If your criteria for being hard is a player never hamming up a foul then this team is going to have it tough finding more than zero players.

If you actually read what I said you'd realise my criteria for

'Hard' is about being extremely tough, both mentally and physically.

megadodge

Gerry91 wrote: »

Riiight.

So to be "hard" you can't have been floored in a game?

I didn't say any such thing. You did.
However, if a player goes through game after game being hit very regularly and doesn't go down, yes, I think he's harder than somebody who goes down very regularly from the same abuse. Surely that's very straightforward logic?

As for never seeing mac being flattened, diarmuid Blake says hi!

As I said I never remember Mac being flattened in a match, if Diarmuid Blake did it, good for him, I just didn't see it or know about it. I also regard Mac as being harder than Blake having seen both numerous times.

downthemiddle

Tom Joad wrote: »

Hardest 15 I've ever seen in the flesh - positions don't count for this one .

1. Mick Lyons (Meath -beast of a man)
2. Eamonn Heery (Dublin - scary)
3. Bernard Morris (Cavan - tough as nails)
4. Pat Faulkner (Cavan - butcher by trade - enough said)
5. Nudie Hughes (Monaghan - himself and Faulkner had some epic battles both at club and county level)
6. Liam Harnon (Meath)
7. Paidí O Sé (Kerry)
8. Tony Scullion (Derry)
9. SM Lockhart (Derry)
10. Kieran McGeeny (Armagh)
11. Francie Bellew (Armagh)
12. Glenn Ryan (Kildare)
13. Brian Mullins (Dublin)
14. Tim Kennelly (Kerry)
15. Niall Cahalane (Cork)

Wouldn't like to be on the opposing team

A few thugs in there as distinct from genuinely hard men.

homerjay2005

Eamon Breen should be on every team, surprised so many are leaving him out.

Howard Juneau

Brian Mullins less of a hard man, more of a dirty player. Dragging, pulling, sly elbows etc. Not worthy of the tag hardman
Same with Paul Galvin, too inclined to get involved in stupid niggles & trying to stamp his authority on a game instead of actually playing football.

passremarkable

Jackie tyrell in hurling

K-9

Surprised Kevin McKeever of Derry wasn't mentioned while Tony Scullion got named often.

Matt Gallagher was some corner and full back, never had to kick a ball in an All Ireland Final!

In fairness Matt was your thinking mans full back, fooled many a referee.

Sean Martie Lockhart another beast of a player, Derry and Meath seem to breed them!

Dan Chipowski

Notice Liam Dunne rightly mentioned in a lot of the hurling lists. I remember talking to someone (who'd have been about a foot taller than Liam) that had marked him in a club game and said it was like shouldering a brick wall.

ardmacha

There is only one Francie Bellew.

Hammar

K-9 wrote: »

Surprised Kevin McKeever of Derry wasn't mentioned while Tony Scullion got named often.

Matt Gallagher was some corner and full back, never had to kick a ball in an All Ireland Final!

In fairness Matt was your thinking mans full back, fooled many a referee.

Sean Martie Lockhart another beast of a player, Derry and Meath seem to breed them!

I'm thinking you mean Kieran McKeever of Derry???
Tough as nails despite his small stature.

aveytare

McKeever and Canavan had a few great battles in the nineties - Canavan said he was the toughest corner-back he ever faced.

muincav

ardmacha wrote: »

There is only one Francie Bellew.

Poor wee Francie (lol) took a lot of punishment and give it out too, but the only difference was he never complained about the treatment he got...

Rick Rod

Where is Charlie Redmond???

Boom__Boom

Evil_Clown wrote: »

Seanie McMahon

Aidan O'Mahony did something similar in a club game for Rathmore a few years back.

Broke a bone in his leg first-half of a game and went in full-forward as he couldnt really move.

Managed to score 2 points as well.

K-9

Hammar wrote: »

I'm thinking you mean Kieran McKeever of Derry???
Tough as nails despite his small stature.

The one and only.

aveytare wrote: »

McKeever and Canavan had a few great battles in the nineties - Canavan said he was the toughest corner-back he ever faced.

Him and Manus Boyle had some battles too.

Plunkett Donaghy could give it out as could Stephen King of Cavan.

We really should just name an Ulster hardest 15 and let the rest of them fight over who might fit in!

yellow50HX

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Aidan O'Mahony did something similar in a club game for Rathmore a few years back.

Broke a bone in his leg first-half of a game and went in full-forward as he couldnt really move.

Managed to score 2 points as well.

Donnacha o Connor must have no where in sight....ha ha.

It led to one of the funniest things I ever saw a few weeks after that match in croke park. O'mahony was stationed in cork at the time and was on the beat one Saturday night when he was trying get a few lads to move on when one of them recognised him and started exaggerating the shove. The older Garda nearly wet himself laughing. I d say he will never live that one down, it would have earned Ronaldo an oscar.

hawkwing

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Paul Shelly Tipp.A great hurler though.
Was some duel,him and rock in Munster 2000 final.


Rock, at full back,Shelley at full forward.Two great players ,well able to give it and take it.

The Rock walked on him that day and held him scoreless,maybe the verbal duel was closer between them. He would hardly go down as "great" i think.

klairondavis

hawkwing wrote: »

The Rock walked on him that day and held him scoreless,maybe the verbal duel was closer between them. He would hardly go down as "great" i think.

Shelly won the first of two missed Tipp penalties that day when Cusack hopped up on his back to try and put a halt to his gallop.

hawkwing

klairondavis wrote: »

Shelly won the first of two missed Tipp penalties that day when Cusack hopped up on his back to try and put a halt to his gallop.

He was never the same after Cusack jumped up on him.

premierstone

hawkwing wrote: »

The Rock walked on him that day and held him scoreless,maybe the verbal duel was closer between them. He would hardly go down as "great" i think.

To be fair to Shelly he won an all star corner back before being re-deployed to the FF line, I think he definitly fit the bill of a 'hardy bucko', ended up playing quite a bit of rugby AFAIK.

cat in the sack

Dan Chipowski wrote: »

Notice Liam Dunne rightly mentioned in a lot of the hurling lists. I remember talking to someone (who'd have been about a foot taller than Liam) that had marked him in a club game and said it was like shouldering a brick wall.

Dunne wouldn't go down as a hard man, a dirty player would be more like, with his late pulling on Gary Kirby and John Troy who had broken fingers after his days work on them.

plus his chopping on DJ Carey one day in wexford park in the early 90's.

cat in the sack

its hard to pick their have been so many, the late Mick Holden of Dublin would be in my side plus Pat Delaney of the offaly side of the 80's Padraig Horan
was also a hardy buck played hurling and football for leinster.

Ger Henderson,Pat o'Neill were also hard centre backs, Tony Keady could stand with the best of them.

Paudie and Thomas O'Shea were hard men Paddy McCormack the iron man from rhode. Richie Connor was a hard man his hit on the late Horse Kennelly
in the 82 final change the game and took the horse out of it.

the Rock from Cork, Pat Harnett another hardy buck, Tony Doran you could be here all night.

PN14

Hurling 15

1. Ger Cunningham (Cork remember him as a young fellow taking sliotar to the face in an final against galway)

2. Steve McDonagh (limerick real hard nail know from expierence!) George Frend Tipperary trying to decide between dirty and hard hets mention also

3. The Rock (Cork) Honourable mention for Brian Lohan (Clare)

4. Silvie Linane (Galway) Offally man Pat Fleury gets a mention here too

5. Tony Dunne (Wexford)

6. Tony Keady (Galway part of prob greatest half back line of them all)

7. Ciaran carey (Limerick some athlete and always took punishment still playing by the way at full back for his junior team)

8. George O'Connor (Wexford the state of his hands tells it all)

9. Mike Houlihan (Limerick) Lots of hard midfield men honourable mentions for Clare engine room of the 90's Baker & Lynch also Kilkennys Diarmuid Lyng and there current engine room Power hes a serious machine

10. John Leahy (Tipperary)

11. Brendan Lynskey (Galway saw him more times with blood on his head than without any cuts hardman)

12. Niall McCarthy(Cork always struck in everything honourable mention for Bonner Maher tipperary he's also involved where it counts)

13. Eoin Kelly (Tipperary) kept Tipp in games for years on his own almost in the mid 00's there main ball winner and scorer.

14. Noel Lane (Galway) a few guys for this one Kevin Hennessey Cork, Cormac Viking Bonner Tipperary to name a few.

15. Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny) no hurling team I think should be without him regardless the reason for naming it but hes a hard guy takes a lot of punishment and always there when hes required plenty of injuries too.

Thats my selection its actually hard to leave out guys you could easily add a second or third team and I'm only selection guys from mid 80's onwards.

Browney7

This thread needs some Clem Smith. Brought on as a sub in a league game before when the experimental yellow card rules were in. 2 minutes later he was carded and the enforced substitution ensued. A young john mullane also was "treated" to some Clem back in 2001 aswell. That was pure dirt though.

Mike Houlihan the hardest of hard nuts. The story that Tom Ryan tells of him playing Westmeath in a challenge with no helmet and wires in his jaw and frothing at mouth a few weeks later playing Cork in the championship with wires still in his jaw. Ollie Baker and himself had some battles in the 90s