Confessions of a never has been.....

aquinn

ugh, 2 more to go !

Yes, that's cross country.

Brilliant going and massive congratulations on the bronze. Well done.

Duanington

Monday

Back to the long run, 13 miles on the cards.

Legs were pretty fried the morning after Galway to be honest but they seemed to chill out quite a bit throughout the course of the day and by the time running time came around, they didn't feel too bad. I was still planning on taking this one nice and handy for a few miles before clipping on just a little .

As it turned out, I met one of the lads from the club after a couple of miles, much needed company for a couple of miles, dumped the bag at home and carried on with my run, bumped into another ( faster) lad for a few miles and by the time I'd left him, there were only 2 miles left, happy days :-)

13.1 miles @ 7.41 min\miles

Running long runs the day after a hard race isn't something I've always done by the way, its something that coach has had me doing for a while now ( race or session) but always with a health warning - if it feels wrong, can it. It took a while to get used to them but I enjoy them now and do feel when your conditioned right, they pay off ( only when you're conditioned right though)


Tuesday

Run home after work and a couple of extra miles with FBOT, nice run, nice chats, kept the pace nice and slow .

7.2 easy miles

Wednesday

Out on the track with the running group at work for today's session. I'm really enjoying these, I struggle to make any group sessions with the club because of work\life so these provide a chance to run tough sessions with other people, pushing each other around the track really.

Today's session was 12x400, 100m\60 sec recovery

We started off in a group of 4, down to three after 6 and then down to 2 after 10. Myself and 2 of the other lads basically took it turns to pace the group around each rep.

Really good session, felt the burn on a few but felt strong all the way, had really found a good stride by the last two, not pushing too hard, just focusing on rhythm and consistency.

Reps were all 1.15 - 1.20

Another good Wednesday session down


Jogged home from work later in the day just to flush out the legs.

Thursday

7.1 easy miles around St Anne's, stuck to the grass where possible, nice run


Plenty of core work this week to make sure nothing starts falling apart

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

Running long runs the day after a hard race isn't something I've always done by the way, its something that coach has had me doing for a while now ( race or session) but always with a health warning - if it feels wrong, can it. It took a while to get used to them but I enjoy them now and do feel when your conditioned right, they pay off ( only when you're conditioned right though)

What's the idea behind the long run the day after the race?

Testosterscone

Swashbuckler wrote: »

What's the idea behind the long run the day after the race?

Practicality

DD used to do Tuesday long runs but with the amount of racing he has done the last while we had evaluate how the races fit with the training

a) He raced so frequently he couldn't afford to miss that many long runs

b) we wanted to get a midweek workout done along with the races which we would have been too close to races if done on a Thursday and we not sensible to run a session day after long run for injury risk reasons

Having said that long runs post race are a good stimulus as you are running on tired legs. As long as the pace is kept handy it can be good for endurance. Most people won't done them on a Monday after a Sunday race with work constraints but if you can it can be beneficial. You don't have to keep training in a 7 day cycle.

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

Having said that long runs post race are a good stimulus as you are running on tired legs. As long as the pace is kept handy it can be good for endurance.

I presume the same goes for doing your long run after a session as long as the pace is kept sensible as you say?

Testosterscone

OOnegative wrote: »

I presume the same goes for doing your long run after a session as long as the pace is kept sensible as you say?

Yep this is why many operate a Wed/Sat Session format with long run of a Sunday

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

Yep this is why many operate a Wed/Sat Session format with long run of a Sunday

Knew I made a horlicks of that question, I meant to ask running a session the day after a long run? Do you get the same benefits?

Testosterscone

OOnegative wrote: »

Knew I made a horlicks of that question, I meant to ask running a session the day after a long run? Do you get the same benefits?

Personally not a fan, dramatically increases injury risk in many.

Having said that as far as I know this is the UK template of training (Session Monday/Thurs/Sat with Long Run Sunday) but for most I would be against it

(bit my lip a bit when saw you log as didn't want to but in haha, having said that you look like you are managing it sensibly)

adrian522

I presume there would be 2 easy days after that Session/Long Run/Easy/Easy Or would you go back into a session after 1 easy day?

OOnegative

Testosterscone wrote: »

Personally not a fan, dramatically increases injury risk in many.

Having said that as far as I know this is the UK template of training (Session Monday/Thurs/Sat with Long Run Sunday) but for most I would be against it

(bit my lip a bit when saw you log as didn't want to but in haha, having said that you look like you are managing it sensibly)

Ah no butt in, I am managing it but as I have said to the missus I a more wrecked now training for a half than I ever was training for Rotterdam or Barca so not something i’ll keep up post CPC. Thanks for the answer.

Testosterscone

adrian522 wrote: »

I presume there would be 2 easy days after that Session/Long Run/Easy/Easy Or would you go back into a session after 1 easy day?

Depends on the week. Some weeks DD was Racing on a Saturday so he got an easy day and then long run, Some weeks Sunday so long Run Monday with a session on Wednesday to give an extra day recovery for the race.

No harm in having close succession work bunched as long as you repay recovery sooner rather than later. Not sustainable to constantly overreach.

Testosterscone

OOnegative wrote: »

Ah no butt in, I am managing it but as I have said to the missus I a more wrecked now training for a half than I ever was training for Rotterdam or Barca so not something i’ll keep up post CPC. Thanks for the answer.

No bother sure you have my email if you ever wanna run anything by me

Swashbuckler

adrian522 wrote:

I presume there would be 2 easy days after that Session/Long Run/Easy/Easy Or would you go back into a session after 1 easy day?

Just to add my own context T has my typical week as Easy-Session-Easy-Easy-Session-Long-Rest from Monday to Sunday unless I'm racing at then it changes depending on the race day.

skyblue46

Not directly connected to this so apologies. I'm just putting it here as there are some people posting whose opinions I'd pay heed to. I'm not in a club and at the moment using the graduates plan which will finish at the Bohermeen half. I'm loving the balance of easy running, long runs and sessions. I'd love to join a club but when I look at Strava I see people whose race times are close to mine or 20 secs a mile faster doing their easy club runs at a minute to a minute and a half faster than my easy runs on the plan. Would joining a club and doing club runs like that be counterproductive?

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Not directly connected to this so apologies. I'm just putting it here as there are some people posting whose opinions I'd pay heed to. I'm not in a club and at the moment using the graduates plan which will finish at the Bohermeen half. I'm loving the balance of easy running, long runs and sessions. I'd love to join a club but when I look at Strava I see people whose race times are close to mine or 20 secs a mile faster doing their easy club runs at a minute to a minute and a half faster than my easy runs on the plan. Would joining a club and doing club runs like that be counterproductive?

You'll get different opinions on this but from what I've seen generally speaking there seems to be a big element of keeping up with the group in these clubs. Even with the sessions I know lads hammering out sessions at full tilt every week, getting injured, coming back and hammering out sessions full tilt again and questioning what I'm doing not pushing harder with my sessions that I do on my own. Maybe it's not the norm but it's what I've been observing.
With the easy runs there's nothing to be gained running them faster. Easy should be easy.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You'll get different opinions on this but from what I've seen generally speaking there seems to be a big element of keeping up with the group in these clubs. Even with the sessions I know lads hammering out sessions at full tilt every week, getting injured, coming back and hammering out sessions full tilt again and questioning what I'm doing not pushing harder with my sessions that I do on my own. Maybe it's not the norm but it's what I've been observing.
With the easy runs there's nothing to be gained running them faster. Easy should be easy.

So you seem to agree that loads of people even in club groups train too hard? I've bought into T's ideas but little doubts pop up in my head when I see the paces so many are training at.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

So you seem to agree that loads of people even in club groups train too hard? I've bought into T's ideas but little doubts pop up in my head when I see the paces so many are training at.

Well I presume T himself is in a club and he's smart with his training. But generally I see that a lot of them train too hard in my opinion. I was told I should be running regular long intervals at 20 to 30s faster than 10k pace last year. I tried it. I was pretty wrecked. Since T started giving me advice on my running I'm a different runner. The proof will be in the pudding over the next year or so and we'll see who's faster when it comes to race day. Haha
What I will say is the top guys in the clubs I've seen are smart with their training and don't get sucked into the group macho mentality. But the lads here might have different experiences.

Worst thing you can do is compare yourself to other runners especially when it comes to easy run pace. Easy should be just that. I know lads running easy pretty quick and hammering their sessions and they've been stuck at the same 5k pb for a year.

Singer

skyblue46 wrote: »

So you seem to agree that loads of people even in club groups train too hard? I've bought into T's ideas but little doubts pop up in my head when I see the paces so many are training at.

Generally speaking from what I've observed since joining a club... runners in clubs can be less informed or disciplined compared to the folks around here. A lot of damage can be done by showing up to a club, running hard like everybody else and neglecting the easy paced running needed to support the faster stuff. For sure some folks can kick on after joining a club, and using the club sessions as a way to regularly do faster stuff will be beneficial to most, but be wary of getting dragged into sessions that are at race-level intensity etc. Clubs are great, but caveat emptor.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Well I presume T himself is in a club and he's smart with his training. But generally I see that a lot of them train too hard in my opinion. I was told I should be running regular long intervals at 20 to 30s faster than 10k pace last year. I tried it. I was pretty wrecked. Since T started giving me advice on my running I'm a different runner. The proof will be in the pudding over the next year or so and we'll see who's faster when it comes to race day. Haha
What I will say is the top guys in the clubs I've seen are smart with their training and don't get sucked into the group macho mentality. But the lads here might have different experiences.

Worst thing you can do is compare yourself to other runners especially when it comes to easy run pace. Easy should be just that. I know lads running easy pretty quick and hammering their sessions and they've been stuck at the same 5k pb for a year.

Ah I'm happy with the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. Times are getting better and my 2 year plan is to get my first marathon of 3:47 down to 3:20 to get GFA entry for over 50s in the big marathons. I think I'll continue to go it alone.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Ah I'm happy with the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. Times are getting better and my 2 year plan is to get my first marathon of 3:47 down to 3:20 to get GFA entry for over 50s in the big marathons. I think I'll continue to go it alone.

Trust me when I say if you follow T's plans and advice you'll be a better runner. But you seem to know that already.
I get where you're coming from. It's easy look at these other lads and wonder and question what you're doing. But some day soon you'll surprise yourself in a race or in a session.
Out of interest what pace are you running your easy runs?
I like the way you have a long term plan. Too many people are focused on short term gains. If you're in it for the long haul you have the right attitude.

RayCun

It's just a matter of having the discipline yourself on a club run to go at the right pace, which could mean running with people who are slower than you in races.

It's not a club thing, it's a group run thing. People always run faster with other people, and often run faster to stay with a particular group than they should. But also, how fast you should run depends on the rest of your training. If you are running a lot, you need to keep your easy runs easy. If someone only does the club runs they have more time to recover, so running faster is okay.

Testosterscone

FWIW I am very much a club runner at heart. I have been a member 20 years. Best advice I can give is if you are going to join a club

1) find there right fit for you. There are plenty of clubs out there with no guidance, very little participation outside what you would do race wise anyway and lack of coaching/guidance

2) Be an active club member. There are 60,000 registered club members in this club and most have the mentality of wanting to use the expertise and not realise that a club is give and take. It's a community and there are many elements which can be you should keep an open mind about. Try new things, don't be afraid if it doesn't suit your exact plan (to give you an example I had to do High Jump and Race walk before a 5k last year or I have joined our 100m sprinters for hip mobility workouts and plyometrics)

As people have mentioned just because a person is in a club doesn't automatically improve them. People still train piss poorly in clubs as well. If a group are running too fast run with slower group on easy days (when I do get up to the club myself have no problem sitting at the back of a group of 19/20 min 5k guys because they are running much harder than I would normally run on my easy days. Leave ego at the door and you will still get the best from it.

Being part of a club in the traditional sense is well worth it but many of the club values are rare enough these days

Edit: Apologies DD on the 24hr high jack

clickerquicklic

Apologies on posting this in someones training log , maybe the conversation can be moved to another thread. This is something i've been wondering I joined a club a few weeks ago and now turn up for Tuesday sessions which are mostly 5*1k at 5k ish pace with 2 mins recovery. Everyone seems to be running these way harder than 5k pace he called the groups group 1 17-19min guys , group 2 19 min + guys I went with group 2 and kept pace with the top lad the slowest 1k split was 3.30 the fastest was 3.18 now i'm a 18.44 5k runner , Last week was 1k fast which I ran 3.10 pace then 6 x 300 which we were asked to run fast I was doing them at 48sec's am I benefitting from these sessions?

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Apologies on posting this in someones training log , maybe the conversation can be moved to another thread. This is something i've been wondering I joined a club a few weeks ago and now turn up for Tuesday sessions which are mostly 5*1k at 5k ish pace with 2 mins recovery. Everyone seems to be running these way harder than 5k pace he called the groups group 1 17-19min guys , group 2 19 min + guys I went with group 2 and kept pace with the top lad the slowest 1k split was 3.30 the fastest was 3.18 now i'm a 18.44 5k runner , Last week was 1k fast which I ran 3.10 pace then 6 x 300 which we were asked to run fast I was doing them at 48sec's am I benefitting from these sessions?

Seeing as I started it feel free to move over HERE as I'd be interested too. Apologies once again.

Testosterscone

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Apologies on posting this in someones training log , maybe the conversation can be moved to another thread. This is something i've been wondering I joined a club a few weeks ago and now turn up for Tuesday sessions which are mostly 5*1k at 5k ish pace with 2 mins recovery. Everyone seems to be running these way harder than 5k pace he called the groups group 1 17-19min guys , group 2 19 min + guys I went with group 2 and kept pace with the top lad the slowest 1k split was 3.30 the fastest was 3.18 now i'm a 18.44 5k runner , Last week was 1k fast which I ran 3.10 pace then 6 x 300 which we were asked to run fast I was doing them at 48sec's am I benefitting from these sessions?

Running fast doesn't have to be feared but you need to look at it in the overall sense. We all would benefit from doing a bit of fast turnover work.

Having said that if the aim of this session was to build aerobic capacity endurance on a regular basis I would focus more on running relaxed and controlled at pace than the pace itself. Pay particular attention to holding your shoulders well, getting your knees up and feeling in control. Even if this means the pace is scaled back a couple of seconds you will get more from it.

You also need to look at active and passive rest (do you need to stand and catch your breath or jog) would you be able to get through that session fressh if you dropped the recoveries to 1 min?

Many people will will tip along with these sort of sessions blasting out fast times but not able to come near on race day and wonder why sometimes though this is when you need to look and address it.

I have seen it with a lad I grew up with and to this day he is not replicating times he is doing in training.

Murph_D

Just catching up with your race report Davey - you made it sound like the conditions forced the pace down to Fr. Ted Retired Priest 5-a-side levels but I’m sure it was a lot faster, and certainly much harder, than that. Terrific result and congrats on the medal honours. Up the Dubs.

Duanington

BOOM log of the year and I didn't even have to write a word

Duanington

Murph_D wrote: »

Just catching up with your race report Davey - you made it sound like the conditions forced the pace down to Fr. Ted Retired Priest 5-a-side levels but I’m sure it was a lot faster, and certainly much harder, than that. Terrific result and congrats on the medal honours. Up the Dubs.

Thanks D, its such a strange feeling to be busting a gut to move at that kind of relative pace...as tough a run as I can remember really.

Duanington

18.02.2018

Friday

Out into St Anne's during a break between meetings, kept it on the grass. Legs a little tight after a good leg\glute session the day before.

7.1 easy miles

Saturday

BHAA ALSAA 5 mile XC, 12th place (5.3 miles @ 5.58 pace)

Yep, another xc race...there’s method to the madness though !

Arrived nice and early with FBOT driving the bus again this morning, got registered, changed and got a bit of a warmup done around the course. Weather wise, the day was just about perfect, sunshine, clear skies, maybe a bit of a wind but nothing crazy.
The surface on the course was soft enough in places but in fairness there were plenty of stretches that would allow some good running too. I woke up with a bit of a headache and feeling pretty tired this morning, the usual creaks that go with a good block of training\racing but someone had left the heating on all night which left my mouth like the Sahara when I woke, thankfully I started to come around a little during the warmup lap.

No real delay at the start, a quick few words and we were off (love the informal nature of these races sometimes). The course was to be 4 and a bit laps of a winding route, plenty of twists and turns, the odd patch of heavy ground to navigate and a couple of sections that should let people stretch their legs a little.

I found myself in amongst it from the off, after navigating the first few bends, I had settled into a good position just behind a lad from the club who I know to be a very strong xc runner and D from work who I know is a quality runner ( sub 2.40 marathon man), I knew from the start that if I could finish within a couple of places of these two lads, I’d have another good day at the cross country office.
Effort levels felt good after .5 mile or so, the ground did feel a little heavier along some sections that it did during the warmup though !

Around the last of the football pitches and into the “back” field, the field was moving well, I was settled in nicely, maybe 4-5 places away from the two lads. Around another couple of bends in the back field and we were heading back up towards the start area again, this section felt pretty exposed to the wind but it wasn’t long before we were headed back off into our 2nd lap thankfully. So far, so good, working hard but moving well.

Mile1: 5.53

Into the 2nd mile and I found myself heading up my little group a little more than I would have liked, each time someone else took the lead the pace seemed to drop back a little too much, the result was that the group ahead started to open up a big enough gap on us.
I wasn’t too concerned at the time because it felt like we were working good and hard all the way. Around the football pitches again, heading towards the back field and I took the lead again to try and spur the group on, a couple of lads came with me, a couple gave up the ghost.
Into the back field, through the heavy stuff and we were heading into the final section of the 2nd lap.

Mile 2: 6.02

Coming along the start\finish area, I was conscious of having to work that bit harder than before to keep the momentum going into the breeze.
I could also feel my right hamstring starting to tug at me a little, nothing major but enough to set off an amber light somewhere...into the football pitches and it was still niggling so I backed off the effort level ever so slightly, I could feel it most going into bends and corners so really it was just a case of not pushing through corners and bends like I normally do.
It seemed ok on the straights so this strategy seemed to do the job for the next while, through the back field and up again towards the start area, the gap to the group ahead had stretched out while I was running with a couple of lads on my shoulder ( I could hear support around the course telling them to stick with me).

Mile 3: 6.05

2 miles to go and this was proving to be another bruising xc encounter, I was working very hard to keep the show on the road but was moving very well at the same time, a couple of system checks told me that I was in a good place, even if the body was starting to hurt like hell.
The hamstring was starting to ease off a little; I couldn’t feel it pull as much when I was running the bends so I gradually started to push a little harder.
I could sense the lads starting to drop back a little from my shoulder too as we went through the football field, although the runner ahead seemed to be moving very well and with only a mile to go, I assumed he was out of reach ( maybe 20 metres ahead when the watch beeped)

Mile 4: 6.00

There’s nothing like the fear of someone coming back at you in a race to push you on and I knew I had to really dig in to push on and burn off the two lads. By the time we were going by the football pitches again, I was lapping some backmarkers, I was pushing hard into the corners again, keen to get as much distance between myself and the lads behind me.

Heading into the back field again, the surface felt like glue but I kept the leg drive going and noted that the gap to the lad ahead was closing quicker than I had expected.

Mile 5: 5.58

Heading back out into the start\finish area, I heard the PA system tell us we had 350 metres to go, I was closing pretty quickly on the lad which was surprised me as he still looked very strong, I drew level with him with 250 still to go and really just kept going, I could sense him respond and knew he was on my shoulder for a bit but by the time I turned onto the finishing straight, I knew I was on my own, I put the ears back, opened the stride up a bit more and crossed the line

.3 mile ( 5.36 pace)

31.39 official time for 12th place.


Congratulated the lads that finished ahead of me for some quality running, watched FBOT finish very strongly then got a bit of an easy run in to finish up.
Over to the ALSAA complex for some tay and brack then off for home.
Another solid run today, I did feel a little flat in the middle section but finished strong again which is very promising , finished a couple of places behind the two lads which is a good result.

A lot done, a lot more to do as someone once said.


Sunday

Out this evening for some very easy miles with some northside boardsies, perfect evening for it. Good banter all the way had the miles ticking by nicely

9.1 easy miles to finish off a very good week ( plenty of corework in there too)

OOnegative

Any fatigue or soreness over last 3-4 weeks of racing D? Just curious to see how feel body wise after that amount of hard racing in such a short space of time? I’m in bits after one hard race & I appreciate your a good step above me, but do you reckon racing regularly helps with post race fatigue/soreness as in getting the body use to the pain?