A Slow Journey to Faster Times

yaboya1

menoscemo wrote: »

Great stuff yaboya. Really enjoyed that report!!
Whats the plan for Dublin? Sub 3 again or just enjoy it? should be a good crowd in McGrattans this year

Thanks. The original plan was to have a go at beating whatever time I ran in Berlin. The problem now is that I left everything out there. I have no idea how I'll feel on the day so will leave off making a final decision until then. No matter what, I will enjoy it, and the pints in McGrattans even more so

ThePiedPiper

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thanks RFR.
You have to take a lot of credit for this imo. After just running an 8 minute PB of 2:50 in Chicago, you assured me that massive improvement was possible for myself with proper training. You told me that your first marathon time was very similar to mine and that proper structured training was all that was required to ensure large improvement. You were the first one to make me doubt my own belief that I could never get near these sort of times.
Did I ever say thanks? :rolleyes:

Much appreciated yaboya, but I could've and have said similar to 4 or 5 others before that were underselling themselves, nobody else took it on board and committed themselves the way you have. The credit is entirely yours. That said, you're welcome to buy me a pint next time I see you. :-)

yaboya1

RunForestRun wrote: »

Much appreciated yaboya, but I could've and have said similar to 4 or 5 others before that were underselling themselves, nobody else took it on board and committed themselves the way you have. The credit is entirely yours. That said, you're welcome to buy me a pint next time I see you. :-)

I most definitely will. Are you joining us in McGrattans after the DCM? Or will you still be in Germany?

Ferris B

Super report P and extremely entertaining. Congrats again on a very well run race. It was great to be there to witness it unfold.

You're right, you were a complete basket case on the evening before the race. I was actually quite worried you'd crack up and ruin your race as you looked so stressed. I was reassured though when I saw your first couple of splits at 5k and 10k and everything was bang on target.

As we discussed, I do still think the heat played a part on the day. The sun was beaming from the off and there was little, if no wind. I even got sunburnt and I was in and out of the sun (on the U Bahn etc).


PS For your next marathon, I promise to change my 37k shoutout to something a bit more inspirational:)

laura_ac3

Well done yaboya, congrats on the sub 3. Great report, very interesting reading ahead of Dublin, really insightful.

yaboya1

Ferris B wrote: »

Super report P and extremely entertaining. Congrats again on a very well run race. It was great to be there to witness it unfold.

You're right, you were a complete basket case on the evening before the race. I was actually quite worried you'd crack up and ruin your race as you looked so stressed. I was reassured though when I saw your first couple of splits at 5k and 10k and everything was bang on target.

As we discussed, I do still think the heat played a part on the day. The sun was beaming from the off and there was little, if no wind. I even got sunburnt and I was in and out of the sun (on the U Bahn etc).


PS For your next marathon, I promise to change my 37k shoutout to something a bit more inspirational:)

Thanks Ferris.
I don't think it mattered what you said, the voices in my head would have done something to turn it into a negative :pac:

yaboya1

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Well done yaboya, congrats on the sub 3. Great report, very interesting reading ahead of Dublin, really insightful.

Thanks Laura. Even though DCM will be your first marathon, I doubt you will be anywhere near as bad as I was on Saturday. Despite the nerves, I was still able to go out and hit my original target, which shows that if you've put in the training, that's what will shine through on the day. The nerves will disappear once you get going. Remember that on October 26th

AuldManKing

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thanks. The original plan was to have a go at beating whatever time I ran in Berlin. The problem now is that I left everything out there. I have no idea how I'll feel on the day so will leave off making a final decision until then. No matter what, I will enjoy it, and the pints in McGrattans even more so

come on a journey with the 3:40 boys and enjoy the Marathon

Gavlor

AuldManKing wrote: »

come on a journey with the 3:40 boys and enjoy the Marathon

At least we'll help him to a negative split marathon!

yaboya1

Gavlor wrote: »

At least we'll help him to a negative split marathon!

Now there's an idea......:pac:

ThePiedPiper

A few pints in McGrattans would be lovely, but I'm not back from Frankfurt til the Monday evening, not sure heading into Dublin on the rip would go down the best after having a full weekend in Germany. Some other time I'm sure

DOCO12

Brilliant report, I really enjoyed reading. I saw the length of it earlier and said I'd save it for after training with a cup of tea. It would get anyone excited about doing a marathon, congrats again ! Your progress is so impressive!

yaboya1

DOCO12 wrote: »

Brilliant report, I really enjoyed reading. I saw the length of it earlier and said I'd save it for after training with a cup of tea. It would get anyone excited about doing a marathon, congrats again ! Your progress is so impressive!

Thanks DOCO.
Good luck in Dublin.

Duanington

Fantastic report Yaboya1 - sums up everything that people love and hate and then love again about running.
You've put in a hell of a lot of work this year and it paid off, its great to witness it , even if only over the web! Well done

yaboya1

Duanington wrote: »

Fantastic report Yaboya1 - sums up everything that people love and hate and then love again about running.
You've put in a hell of a lot of work this year and it paid off, its great to witness it , even if only over the web! Well done

Thanks D.
You said you did see me outside the Yacht along the promenade one night though :pac:

Duanington

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thanks D.
You said you did see me outside the Yacht along the promenade one night though :pac:

I did indeed - my one claim to boards fame ( I've raced with TbL...but who hasn't !)

skeleton_boy

Great report. As soon as I saw the post, the kettle was put boiling. Loved the inner monolog especially. Just goes to show everything must align to produce your best in the marathon. Well done on refocusing during the race and making sure of the sub three. I know you're capable of better but I'm sure, all things considered (targets from the start of the year) you're very pleased with the result. Oh and thanks for inflating my doubts over a 2.55 target :pac:

RedRunner

Brilliant report P. It took me about four efforts to read it all! You had a right 'oul battle out there and were victorious. Thoroughly deserved plaudits. See you in StAnnes soon or McGrattans...or both!

yaboya1

skeleton_boy wrote: »

Great report. As soon as I saw the post, the kettle was put boiling. Loved the inner monolog especially. Just goes to show everything must align to produce your best in the marathon. Well done on refocusing during the race and making sure of the sub three. I know you're capable of better but I'm sure, all things considered (targets from the start of the year) you're very pleased with the result. Oh and thanks for inflating my doubts over a 2.55 target :pac:

Thanks. I am delighted with my result. I think even if I go on to beat this in the future, I'll look back fondly at how I coped during the race to guarantee sub 3 when things started to go awry. I could have easily missed out.
Looking at your training I wouldn't be worrying if I was you. It definitely won't be as warm in Dublin as it was in Berlin last Sunday. I'll say no more though. I don't want to jinx you

yaboya1

RedRunner wrote: »

Brilliant report P. It took me about four efforts to read it all! You had a right 'oul battle out there and were victorious. Thoroughly deserved plaudits. See you in StAnnes soon or McGrattans...or both!

Thanks R.
Probably be McGrattans unless I'm volunteering. I won't be running a 5k for a while

Marthastew

What a wonderful race report! Mind if I cut and paste some of it for mine? ;-)


It was so great to catch up with you after your amazing run P, lots of fun in the pubs and a great opportunity to meet up with lots of new running friends also.
Your hard work and determination paid off in spades on Sunday, enjoy the recovery and the great feeling of success now before you take on your next challenge, you deserve the down-time.

annapr

yaboya1 wrote: »

See... you looked great really... honest!

annapr

Ferris B wrote: »

You're right, you were a complete basket case on the evening before the race. I was actually quite worried you'd crack up and ruin your race as you looked so stressed.

No sugar coating from Ferris either! must have been the way yaboya was sitting in the corner with the jacket zipped up practically over his head that gave it away...

yaboya1

Marthastew wrote: »

What a wonderful race report! Mind if I cut and paste some of it for mine? ;-)


It was so great to catch up with you after your amazing run P, lots of fun in the pubs and a great opportunity to meet up with lots of new running friends also.
Your hard work and determination paid off in spades on Sunday, enjoy the recovery and the great feeling of success now before you take on your next challenge, you deserve the down-time.

Thanks O. I really enjoyed the weekend and that's normally down the company you're in.

p.s. You were writing epic & inspiring reports before I ever started posting here, so you don't need to copy & paste any of mine

viperlogic

Fantastic report, hope I can report same in a few weeks.....eeeeek

jfh

very entertaining & honest report yaboya1, you've got the sub 3 monkey off your back now so you'll be a lot more relaxed for the next one.
looking forward to it.

yaboya1

viperlogic wrote: »

Fantastic report, hope I can report same in a few weeks.....eeeeek

Thanks. I'll be tracking you all with interest (if possible?)

yaboya1

jfh wrote: »

very entertaining & honest report yaboya1, you've got the sub 3 monkey off your back now so you'll be a lot more relaxed for the next one.
looking forward to it.

Cheers jfh. We must have crossed paths in the Oscar Wilde. I may not have looked like a runner though, as I was well covered up with layers terrified of catching a chill :eek:.

I actually can't wait for Dublin. Berlin was the goal race. Dublin was always a lap of honour/day for just enjoying it. I'll be taking a similar race approach to the one you took in Berlin that day (hopefully with an equally satisfying result :pac:).

DukeOfDromada

Well done yaboya for getting the sub 3! Intelligent change of race strategy before it was too late. Don't know how you can do maths in your head when your that tired :rolleyes:

yaboya1 wrote: »

I think even if I go on to beat this in the future, I'll look back fondly at how I coped during the race to guarantee sub 3 when things started to go awry.

You sure will. The fact that you had to work so hard makes it all the sweeter when looking back.

jebuz

Fantastic report yaboya! I broke it into two parts, the pre-race I read with my morning coffee and then took an afternoon break to read the rest. This strategy worked well for me, I'm not sure how everyone else tackled it.

Fair play on the intelligent racing, you were well on course for a 2:55 and absolutely did the right thing to realign and just get under the 3, that's a difficult thing to do.

Didn't know you were doing DCM you maniac but with the pressure of a sub-3 off you now, I think you might surprise yourself. This is just the beginning.

blockic

Are you intending to race DCM or just run it?

yaboya1

blockic wrote: »

Are you intending to race DCM or just run it?

I'll leave that up to the body to decide.
If I'm fully recovered - race, if not - run & enjoy.

blockic

My own thoughts are you'd be mad to race it. 2 all out marathons in 4 weeks is a big ask for the body. Just putting it out there.

I know the feeling I had the same thoughts to race Cork last year after Rotterdam but I think this is where smart discipline comes into play. Many gave me advice to hold off at that time too and looking back it was the right call for me. Sub 3 in the bag..let the body ample time to recover put in base work over the winter with a look at going all out attack in a spring marathon.

dukeraoul

blockic wrote: »

My own thoughts are you'd be mad to race it. 2 all out marathons in 4 weeks is a big ask for the body. Just putting it out there.

I know the feeling I had the same thoughts to race Cork last year after Rotterdam but I think this is where smart discipline comes into play. Many gave me advice to hold off at that time too and looking back it was the right call for me. Sub 3 in the bag..let the body ample time to recover put in base work over the winter with a look at going all out attack in a spring marathon.

Could not agree more... Yaboya- you have loads of potential use your head and build off Berlin no need at all to be chasing 3 mins in DCM when you could be knocking out a 10-15 min pb next yr!

KielyUnusual

I mentioned some time ago that I had some comments on your training schedule for the marathon. Should have kept my mouth shut:P. I didn't want to say anything at the time, mainly because I didn't want to distract you so close to the marathon and secondly because it was just my opinion with nothing really to back it up only my own personal experience.

Anyway here you are, you ran an excellent marathon but perhaps it wasn't quite up to your expectations or what your training and your races over the shorter distances would have suggested you are capable of.

I dug up your training plan that you posted a while back and I've highlighted a few sessions in it.

Firstly, I've highlighted in green what I believe were your most specific marathon sessions i.e. longer runs at a hard effort (LT or MP here). There were only 2 of these over the 8 weeks. For me, this has to be a weekly thing. You can't beat 8-12 miles at marathon pace or 4-7 miles at half marathon pace for race preparation and training stimulus especially . I've listened to a fair few interviews on Marathon Talk and a common theme among the athlete interviews is their love of the tempo run. Good reason for this, I think.

Secondly, I've highlighted all your interval sessions in orange. These vary in distance a lot but the prescribed pace remains the same. A good skill I think in running interval sessions is learning how hard to run, so that your splits remain even over any given distance but you'd be struggling to do anymore than the prescribed amount of repeats. I wouldn't aim for any pace in these but just get to know the right effort and then maintain that as your fitness improves and your times will come down naturally.

Lastly, if I look at the plan there isn't a whole lot of difference between any of the weeks. I'd prefer to see a little progression. Work up the distance of the tempo runs over the plan, add more repeats to the intervals, shorten the recoveries. You should be getting fitter as the plan progresses, so increase the workload and stress the body to the same degree. Build it back down at the end and then you're in great shape for the race.

Just my two cents here, based on what has worked for me. If I were you, I'd stick away from the prescribed plans for the next marathon. You've ran a few marathons now. Take what you've learned and throw it in to your own plan and then tweak it as you go along. Think about all the other things going on in your life and fit the plan around these so that you can get the maximum out of it with the minimum of stress.

Actually, just give the HADD stuff another go. I thought that was a really interesting experiment and I need my entertainment.

AuldManKing

That's a super post KU - I mean that in the general sense as opposed to a critique of Yaboyas training.

Some good nuggets in there for us all.

ger664

KU the original author of this plan when asked on Marathon Talk what would he change in the plan and if I recall correctly it was to add more MP/Tempo miles.

From reading the book the interval sessions are not really interval sessions but VO2Max that last between 2 and 6 minutes @ 5K pace/effort. The short ones (600's) seemed to come the week before a prep race, having done it 3-4 times I still don't understand what he was trying to achieve with the short intervals. I found the longer ones to be beneficial but then I do very little speed work.

I used this plan before and found it hugely beneficial for me but then I was coming from a stand point that I felt I was at or close the my Aerobic capacity. IMO P still has ground to make there which is frightening, so him reverting back to HADD should yield more in the long term.

Also P racing Dublin now that would be asking for trouble. Run it as per HADD for the first 2 hours and then hold that pace home.

tomred1N

Great result and report yaboya , printed it off and read it over past few days! I think I detected that you actually felt some discomfort near the end of the marathon ..... Im back following ur log !!
I think you should have a right crack off dublin !! Then u'd have a pain in your hadd !!

DukeOfDromada

Thanks for the post KU. The plan has some 8-15k races. What category would you put these into? They are hard efforts so maybe that's why there are less MP/LT sessions in this period of the plan.

I've been doing the HADD Phase 1 training since Feb for a marathon this autumn. I'll hopefully be writing it up with the race report so hopefully that will entertain you in the meantime

yaboya1

blockic wrote: »

My own thoughts are you'd be mad to race it. 2 all out marathons in 4 weeks is a big ask for the body. Just putting it out there.

I know the feeling I had the same thoughts to race Cork last year after Rotterdam but I think this is where smart discipline comes into play. Many gave me advice to hold off at that time too and looking back it was the right call for me. Sub 3 in the bag..let the body ample time to recover put in base work over the winter with a look at going all out attack in a spring marathon.

dukeraoul wrote: »

Could not agree more... Yaboya- you have loads of potential use your head and build off Berlin no need at all to be chasing 3 mins in DCM when you could be knocking out a 10-15 min pb next yr!

ger664 wrote: »

Also P racing Dublin now that would be asking for trouble. Run it as per HADD for the first 2 hours and then hold that pace home.

Thanks for all the feedback lads. I really appreciate it. I'll definitely take it all on board before making a final decision. Anyone agree with my own two cents worth?:

I signed up for Dublin a long time ago, where the intention was always to beat my Berlin time if possible on the day. However, I am determined to enjoy this race (the result on Sunday was great, but I enjoyed running the actual race far more in 2011) no matter what the result, so if at any stage up until about 20 miles I found the pace uncomfortable I was going to back off and just come home enjoying the crowds and the atmosphere. If I do feel in the shape to give it a real go at the start on the 27th though, should I not do that? We never know what's around the corner injury wise etc. I see that the general consensus is not to race, but a few others (dublin runner & jebuz to name two) don't seem to be against this idea. Another thing to bear in mind is how quickly I normally recover. I ran a 5k pb less than two weeks after Seville and a HM pb less than two weeks after that. Although I was sore on Sunday/Monday, I feel completely back to normal today and I've more than three weeks until I toe the line. If I was to decide not to race, I think I'd probably need a pacing gig to stop me, so as I doubt there are any official spots left (?), I may volunteer to pace a friend who will be looking at something around 3:40 - 3:50.
As always, I welcome any more comments/feedback here.

yaboya1

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I mentioned some time ago that I had some comments on your training schedule for the marathon. Should have kept my mouth shut:P. I didn't want to say anything at the time, mainly because I didn't want to distract you so close to the marathon and secondly because it was just my opinion with nothing really to back it up only my own personal experience.

Anyway here you are, you ran an excellent marathon but perhaps it wasn't quite up to your expectations or what your training and your races over the shorter distances would have suggested you are capable of.

I dug up your training plan that you posted a while back and I've highlighted a few sessions in it.

Firstly, I've highlighted in green what I believe were your most specific marathon sessions i.e. longer runs at a hard effort (LT or MP here). There were only 2 of these over the 8 weeks. For me, this has to be a weekly thing. You can't beat 8-12 miles at marathon pace or 4-7 miles at half marathon pace for race preparation and training stimulus especially . I've listened to a fair few interviews on Marathon Talk and a common theme among the athlete interviews is their love of the tempo run. Good reason for this, I think.

Secondly, I've highlighted all your interval sessions in orange. These vary in distance a lot but the prescribed pace remains the same. A good skill I think in running interval sessions is learning how hard to run, so that your splits remain even over any given distance but you'd be struggling to do anymore than the prescribed amount of repeats. I wouldn't aim for any pace in these but just get to know the right effort and then maintain that as your fitness improves and your times will come down naturally.

Lastly, if I look at the plan there isn't a whole lot of difference between any of the weeks. I'd prefer to see a little progression. Work up the distance of the tempo runs over the plan, add more repeats to the intervals, shorten the recoveries. You should be getting fitter as the plan progresses, so increase the workload and stress the body to the same degree. Build it back down at the end and then you're in great shape for the race.

Just my two cents here, based on what has worked for me. If I were you, I'd stick away from the prescribed plans for the next marathon. You've ran a few marathons now. Take what you've learned and throw it in to your own plan and then tweak it as you go along. Think about all the other things going on in your life and fit the plan around these so that you can get the maximum out of it with the minimum of stress.

Actually, just give the HADD stuff another go. I thought that was a really interesting experiment and I need my entertainment.

Thanks for this KU. Some real food for thought in there and a lot to think about over the winter.

jebuz

I'm not against the idea but I'd still have concerns about racing a 2 marathons in the space of a month, anyone would I suppose. Only you know for sure how your body is feeling and I know by your log that you're smart enough to back off when you need to, that's why I'm not totally against it. There is however the risk of you subconsciously wanting to better your Berlin time without even noticing it, that could cloud your judgement during the race so just something to consider also.

Look, some can do it very easily, some find it not so easy, look at GOH for example though that's quite an extreme example - he's possibly not human. I do know a few lads who train just to do marathons, running maybe 5, 6 even more a year and getting away with it. Look at the lads who run 10 marathons in 10 days, it's hard but it doesn't kill them. But the key difference with those examples is that they're not trying to run PB's so maybe that's a clue. Sometimes I think there's a bit too much protectionism these days, just look at the runners of the 80's and their racing schedules, they trained hard, raced frequently and got results too. I know we've got to train smart etc but is there a possibility sometimes we take it too easy? I like that attitude of living in the moment, not knowing whats around the corner, pushing your body to the limit, bringing home the bacon...wait scrap that last one.

Based on your history I think you'll be recovered in time to do a marathon but going all out is another decision and completely up to you, you know your body and how it recovers though I doubt it's been through this sort of stress before so how do you really know? I'd personally save myself for a spring marathon and I think you could well be in 2:4x shape by that stage all going well. If you feel up for Dublin which I think you've already made your mind up on, do it but be sensible.

belcarra

Gotta say I think Jebuz summed things up perfectly in that last paragraph.

I've ran several marathons in close proximity but as far as I remember the closest I raced were NYC in 2011 followed by Philadelphia 2 weeks later. I was going well up until just after half way in Philly but the tiredness from NYC then kicked in and it was a real slog to the finish over the remaining 7-8 miles where I walked a huge chunk.

You have 4 weeks between your races so a little more leeway but ultimately only you will know.

dublin runner

I will keep this short and simple.

Firstly, enjoy the break and rest. Do not even think about lacing up those runners! You have only just finished a good race in Berlin so it's way too way early to even think about Dublin. You need a psychological break as much as a physical one. It's very hard to predict how the body will recover from the race and equally as important, the training. Relax, go easy on yourself and leave it until the week of the race to decide.

Simply aim to enjoy race day. You may surprise yourself with the result.

Now, go have a bloody beer :pac:. Not jealous at all!

ThePiedPiper

yaboya, at this stage, you've proved in the last year that you're qualified enough to make good decisions regarding your own training and racing schedule, the results have proved that. You're also a grown-up, so I'll apologise in advance for the tone of my post, which is probably going to be a mix of my dual daily roles as teacher and parent!

I think you'd be making a mistake in racing Dublin. Not because of any injury risk, you obviously can tell yourself when you're pushing too close to the limit. But, to be perfectly honest, I think you'd be setting yourself up for a big disappointment in Dublin that could, and to a certain extent already is, taking the shine off the brilliant run you had in Berlin. You have trained specifically for the marathon over the past year. Everything you have done was geared towards running a sub-3 marathon in Berlin, which you did. The fact that some of your training and races pointed towards a shot at 2:52-2:54 does not mean that the 2:59 should be regarded as any sort of 2nd best prize. It was a hell of a performance. You followed your plan to the letter of the law and achieved a time that was likely within 3-4 minutes of your current maximum potential.

Moving on from this, what would DCM hold for you if you raced it? You're assuming that somehow something was amiss in you not being able to run 2:54 and that you should be able to knock a few minutes off in Dublin. You'll first of all need to recover, that'll take about 2-3 weeks, despite how you feel now. The 5k PB post-Seville is irrelevant in this regard, there's a world of difference in beating what was previously likely a softish 5k PB, maybe run smack bang in the middle of marathon training, to recovering sufficiently from a full effort sub-3 marathon and go out and do it all again. Secondly, you'll not only need to recover, but you'll need to be in substantially better shape if you want to try and run a few minutes faster on a course that is a few minutes slower. You will more likely lose a bit of conditioning coming down from the peak.

I hate to be a killjoy on it, but I really strongly believe that by likely running a slower marathon in Dublin, you'll finish the season on a bit of a downer. Absolutely, set new goals, and start planning for how you're going to work towards them in the next couple of weeks. But, enjoy your sub-3 performance for what it was, an enormous leap forward as a result of smart, dedicated and careful adherence to proven plans. You know now that you're capable of faster times and 2:4x is not a huge leap away, but next spring is the time for the next jump forward.

And again, my apologies for the tone of my post.

DarByrne1980

its a tough one. not something id consider but if you have trained for it give it a lash. whats the worst that can happen. you may get an injury but i don't think it will be a treat to your long term runing carear. you can always back off and jog the final few miles if it is all getting to much.*

*ive never even ran a half marathon so take my advise with a pinch of salt

dukeraoul

DarByrne1980 wrote: »

*ive never even ran a half marathon so take my advise with a pinch of salt

I dunno Dar I think you're selling yourself short... sure plenty of posters on boards with strong opinions about distances they've never raced

My uncle won the New Jersey State discus championships before shipping out to 'Nam in '72 (true story) I've often thought of hitting up the throwers thread and giving them some advise

Ososlo

dukeraoul wrote: »

I dunno Dar I think you're selling yourself short... sure plenty of posters on boards with strong opinions about distances they've never raced

god you really are a hypocrite considering what you posted in the rant thread recently......


Sorry yaboya. Fantastic report. One for report of the year methinks!

DarByrne1980

dukeraoul wrote: »

I dunno Dar I think you're selling yourself short... sure plenty of posters on boards with strong opinions about distances they've never raced

i see from the rant and rave treads u follow arsenal. how many league games has wenger played. how many goals has he scored. I'm entitled to my opinion. i could have all the answers and just not realise

RedRunner

I'd say go as backup to the 3:40 pacers. Going by their training they might need some help! :-)