A Slow Journey to Faster Times

Chivito550

Mrs Mc wrote: »

Great report P really felt for you approaching all those hills. It's over now chalk it up ... You still ran a marathon which as I novice I salute you it's all about Boston now no hills there !

Except the most famous of all marathon hills, Heartbreak Hill.

Murph_D

Yep, not a great race but a very decent read. Could see something was up from the tracker alright as your 5k splits got slower - assumed you were just enjoying the scenery but understand now that wasn't the case. No one respects the distance more than you so this must have hurt. But I've no doubt the experience will stand to you and that you will build something good from it.

Murph_D

Gavlor wrote: »

Your report, whilst depressing, is very refreshing given the amount of scrotum tickling that has been going on around here of late!!

Cosy! I know they do things a bit differently where you're from, but when I'm reading the logs I try to keep my hands on the iPad.

Gavlor

Murph_D wrote: »

Cosy! I know they do things a bit differently where you're from, but when I'm reading the logs I try to keep my hands on the iPad.

Who mentioned hands?

jake1970

Very honest report as always P.

yaboya1

Thanks for all the nice words. I just received this email:

"Dear Peter,

Congratulations—you Got Your New York On.

Yesterday, you were amazing. Indomitable. Unstoppable. You took on Staten Island, Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, and Manhattan, and you triumphed, finishing the 2015 TCS New York City Marathon in a time of 3:33:28."


I guess they didn't read my report

yaboya1

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Y 'assed out ace but quit yo buggin n git yo booty chillin & cuttin the rug. Fasho you can freestyle fresh at the Raheny 5. You ain't played out jus yet. Aight?! Straight.

I have absolutely no idea what this means :pac:

My rough guess is: 'Sort yourself out and come back fresh with a pb in the Raheny 5'.

Close?

yaboya1

Gavlor wrote: »

Your report, whilst depressing, is very refreshing given the amount of scrotum tickling that has been going on around here of late!!

I haven't really been following any logs over the last few months so like chivito I was a bit shocked when I saw your finish time on the NYC thread. There's not much I can say that the lads haven't covered already bar this:

In the boozer after DCM last year my overriding memory of you is the way you were asking everybody and anybody to run Boston, the best marathon ever, once in a life time etc etc. I think you need to sit back and dip into that enthusiasm. I'd be inclined to use NYC as base training and knuckle down for Boston. If you defer now you might never do it. Who knows what's around the corner.....

You're totally right about the enthusiasm. If I get that back, it's more than half the battle. Going out to run sessions on windy, rainy, cold nights is easy when you want to do it.

"If you defer now you might never do it. Who knows what's around the corner...."

I think I may have actually said those exact words. Are you deliberately quoting me?

Murph_D

Plus deferrals aren't allowed anyway. :pac:

pgmcpq

Just finished reading your report. Yeah ... other than my target was nowhere near yours, and my training was pretty good ... I was nodding in agreement as I read most of that. Good to meet you after. Bottle the disappointment and use the feeling to fuel Boston training.

yaboya1

I've made the mistake of going on post-marathon binges with no running before, so I decided it was for the best if I didn't do that this time. I don't deserve a break after last Sunday anyway :rolleyes:

Monday & Tuesday were out due to travelling/sleeping/jet-lag, but I got back into it on Wednesday. I'm a firm believer in the HADD training, so am going back to that ahead of Boston. I've decided to get a solid month of easy aerobic running in first, before I go back to following the same sort of plan I stuck to for Hamburg. Since Wednesday, I've just been running at certain heart rates for set amounts of time. I don't have distances or splits, I have HR's and workout lengths. That's all I'm going to worry about for the moment.

Wednesday 4th November - 35 minutes Recovery
35 minutes @ 113bpm avg

First run since NYC. Hamstrings & quads very sore, but calves, feet, lower legs and upper body fine. Obviously didn't try hard enough on Sunday.


Thursday 5th November - 35 minutes Recovery
35 minutes @ 108bpm avg

Hamstrings and quads still a little sore, but much improved from Monday. Everything else fine.


Friday 6th November - 60 minutes Recovery
60 minutes @ 115bpm avg

Down in Cork City for this around Pairc Ui Chaoimhe and the reservoir for this one. Soreness gone from the quads. Hamstrings still a little tight. No other issues.


Saturday 7th November - 75 minutes Easy
75 minutes @ 135bpm avg

In rural Cork for this. I intended the average HR to be lower, but the extremely hilly route prevented that. Once I'm below 135bpm though, it's ok. No soreness anywhere.


Monday 9th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 129bpm avg

Back in work today and ran home afterwards. Hamstrings a little tight again, but more due to Saturday's hills than the marathon I think? Mostly running uphill into the very strong wind, but happy with the consistent effort. Nice and mild out for November.


Tuesday 10th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 128bpm avg

Very similar to last night's run, except with a much lighter breeze blowing. Beautiful again outside. How long will that last? Body all good.

yaboya1

Wednesday 11th November - 90 minutes Easy
90 minutes @ 130bpm avg

Weather didn't seem too promising looking out the window this morning, but I left it until after 10am by which time it had cleared up nicely. Lovely again out there now. Is it really Winter?

yaboya1

Thursday 12th November - 60 minutes Easy
60 minutes @ 124bpm avg

Nice run in the blustery conditions out there this evening. My most enjoyable one in a while.

yaboya1

Friday 13th November - 45 minutes Easy
45 minutes @ 126bpm avg

Done before the sun came up.

Duanington

That's some turnaround in training over the past week or so P - well done, keep it up!

DukeOfDromada

yaboya1 wrote: »

I'm a firm believer in the HADD training, so am going back to that ahead of Boston. I've decided to get a solid month of easy aerobic running in first, before I go back to following the same sort of plan I stuck to for Hamburg.

Sounds like a good plan.

dublin runner

How long are you planning to use HADD for?

Myles Splitz

yaboya1 wrote: »

Monday & Tuesday were out due to travelling/sleeping/jet-lag, but I got back into it on Wednesday. I'm a firm believer in the HADD training, so am going back to that ahead of Boston. I've decided to get a solid month of easy aerobic running in first, before I go back to following the same sort of plan I stuck to for Hamburg. Since Wednesday, I've just been running at certain heart rates for set amounts of time. I don't have distances or splits, I have HR's and workout lengths. That's all I'm going to worry about for the moment.

Just regarding HADD. I was wondering would it be worth while to get Vo2 max and LT testing done?

Might be a way of sticking to principles of HADD while making it more specific to you that the absolute numbers quoted in the PDF

yaboya1

Saturday 14th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 129bpm avg

Run home from work late last night in the cold, wind & rain. Enjoyed it though.

yaboya1

Duanington wrote: »

That's some turnaround in training over the past week or so P - well done, keep it up!

Thanks D. I see you're gradually getting back to it yourself. Where are you going for the sub 3?

yaboya1

DukeOfDromada wrote: »

Sounds like a good plan.

I'm hoping it is......

yaboya1

dublin runner wrote: »

How long are you planning to use HADD for?

As long as it takes for me to do myself justice in the marathon. It won't harm my other distances either, as I learned in 2014.

yaboya1

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Just regarding HADD. I was wondering would it be worth while to get Vo2 max and LT testing done?

Might be a way of sticking to principles of HADD while making it more specific to you that the absolute numbers quoted in the PDF

I've never even thought about it tbh. Do you think it's something I should do?

Since I'm way off full fitness, if I was to go tomorrow would that give me different values than when I am? My HMP feels like my 3-5k pace atm.

Myles Splitz

yaboya1 wrote: »

I've never even thought about it tbh. Do you think it's something I should do?

Since I'm way off full fitness, if I was to go tomorrow would that give me different values than when I am? My HMP feels like my 3-5k pace atm.

If you were to go in the values would be fairly accurate for 6-8 weeks depending on mithochondrial development. I would say get a week or two more training done and will probably give you fairly accurate results to work off for Dec/Jan-Feb. At that point could always retest or if you are planning on going back to P & D it might not be as necessary

yaboya1

Sunday 15th November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 132bpm avg

Lovely morning out there for a run. Felt like I was slowing/fading badly in the last 30 minutes. It was uphill and into a headwind, but I took on the same conditions last night and felt fine. Feel like it may have been more down to dehydration. I'll stock up on some water now.

Duanington

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thanks D. I see you're gradually getting back to it yourself. Where are you going for the sub 3?

Ha ha - it'll be a while yet P, next Autumn at the earliest

yaboya1

Monday 16th November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 130bpm avg

Similar run to yesterday, except the HR was slightly lower and wasn't climbing in the final quarter of the run. Very happy with this. Pretty cold outside. You'd want to be fairly moving to break a sweat. I ran some of this along the canal. Although it was open today, there are signs along the towpath (between the new bridge and Lock 9) saying it will be closed between now and February. Murph will be devastated :pac:

Firedance

yaboya1 wrote: »

Monday 16th November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 130bpm avg

Similar run to yesterday, except the HR was slightly lower and wasn't climbing in the final quarter of the run. Very happy with this. Pretty cold outside. You'd want to be fairly moving to break a sweat. I ran some of this along the canal. Although it was open today, there are signs along the towpath (between the new bridge and Lock 9) saying it will be closed between now and February. Murph will be devastated :pac:

he's not the only one! I've only discovered the canal and now its closing for the winter? does the same apply from Clonsilla towwards Maynooth do you know P?

yaboya1

Firedance wrote: »

he's not the only one! I've only discovered the canal and now its closing for the winter? does the same apply from Clonsilla towwards Maynooth do you know P?

I think it's only the section I mention (about 0.5m stretch), but it was supposed to be closed today and it wasn't. Who knows?

aero2k

yaboya1 wrote: »

Saturday 14th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 129bpm avg

Run home from work late last night in the cold, wind & rain. Enjoyed it though.

That's the secret of success right there.

I want to complement you on a great race report and an honest post mortem - you didn't get what you wanted because your training wasn't good enough. It's easy for me to see because I've been there - I went from 3:22 to 2:54 in 18 months, and then back up to 3:23 (actually 3.30 if you include the stop at the medical tent) two years later. Somewhere along the line I had fallen out of love with running and it was becoming a chore - yes I had some physical problems but they're still there and they haven't prevented a steady line of improvements from that nadir - I think I just for got to enjoy it, and got stuck in a rut.

The bad performance in London was the nudge I needed to decide that I didn't want that to be the way it all ended, that I could do better - I just needed to be patient, put the work in and stop trying to rationalise short cuts by telling myself great stories about past exploits. Trying a succession of book based programs helped give me the mental change I needed, heading south to Cork let me try a new course while still in a "home" environment as I could stay with the in-laws.

I know I have a habit of dropping into other peoples' logs and talking about myself - I hate doing it but it's the easiest way to make the case for patience and self belief. Time is on your side, I foresee greater heights ahead, if that's where you want to go.

yaboya1

Thanks Sean.
I agree with everything you say.

In all walks of life, it's always easy to find something/someone else (other than yourself) to blame when you perform worse than your capabilities suggest you should. In my opinion that's the easy way out. People who do that will continue making excuses & repeating the same mistakes, while failing to make any improvement. The cold, hard truth can hurt, but facing up to it and being completely honest with yourself/others gives you the best possible chance. My immediate plan is to give myself the best possible chance of beating your pb in Boston. Maybe if I do that, you'll be enticed out of retirement

aero2k

yaboya1 wrote: »

My immediate plan is to give myself the best possible chance of beating your pb in Boston. Maybe if I do that, you'll be enticed out of retirement

Ha ha, nice try, but no way. Anyway, Boston doesn't count as it's downhill, you'll have to do it in Dublin!

Besides, why limit yourself to some auld lad's PB - pick on a young lad like Krusty. (or pick on an auld lad like Pauric McKinney)

ger664

aero2k wrote: »

Ha ha, nice try, but no way. Anyway, Boston doesn't count as it's downhill, you'll have to do it in Dublin!

Dublin is an easier course to PB then Boston. Early downhill sections if ran too fast will leave your legs in bits @ 15

aero2k

ger664 wrote: »

Dublin is an easier course to PB then Boston. Early downhill sections if ran too fast will leave your legs in bits @ 15

My remark was tongue-in-cheek, however it does highlight the difficulty in comparing marathon performances. Wind and extremes of temperature are also often a factor in Boston. That said, Geoffrey Mutai did manage 2:03:02 there in the past few years. Cheruyiot's three successive victories in 2:07, 2:14 and 2:07 would suggest that something other than the downhill was in play, though I have no idea what took place during those races - i.e. if he was trying to lose rivals, or if it was down to weather.

Anyway, every marathon has lots of sections in the first 20 miles which will leave you in trouble over the final 6 if you run them too fast.

Peter, I hope you smash my PB, and I don't care where you do it!:D

menoscemo

aero2k wrote: »

My remark was tongue-in-cheek, however it does highlight the difficulty in comparing marathon performances. Wind and extremes of temperature are also often a factor in Boston. That said, Geoffrey Mutai did manage 2:03:02 there in the past few years. Cheruyiot's three successive victories in 2:07, 2:14 and 2:07 would suggest that something other than the downhill was in play, though I have no idea what took place during those races - i.e. if he was trying to lose rivals, or if it was down to weather.

Anyway, every marathon has lots of sections in the first 20 miles which will leave you in trouble over the final 6 if you run them too fast.

Peter, I hope you smash my PB, and I don't care where you do it!:D

Being a point to point course, wind plays a big factor. Generally there is a head wind which eliminates any advantage that the downhill might provide, however the year Mutai ran 2:03:02 there was a decent tailwind and perfect temperatures. The nature of the course means it cannot be used for world records although most countries seem to accept Boston times for the purposes of qualification times.

yaboya1

Wednesday 18th November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 129bpm avg

Took an unscheduled rest day yesterday. Barney nearly blew me under a car on the short cycle to the train station, so I thought staying indoors was the safest option all things considered. Wasn't sure how long I'd run for tonight. Decided to play it by ear. It takes me less than an hour to run home from work, but I can alter the route to suit how far/long I want to go. Felt great all the way and stretched the 45-50mins out to an hour, then the hour out to 90 minutes and finally 90 minutes out to two hours. Could have run all night

aero2k

yaboya1 wrote: »

Wednesday 18th November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 129bpm avg

Took an unscheduled rest day yesterday. Barney nearly blew me under a car on the short cycle to the train station, so I thought staying indoors was the safest option all things considered. Wasn't sure how long I'd run for tonight. Decided to play it by ear. It takes me less than an hour to run home from work, but I can alter the route to suit how far/long I want to go. Felt great all the way and stretched the 45-50mins out to an hour, then the hour out to 90 minutes and finally 90 minutes out to two hours. Could have run all night

That's fantastic. Unlike many others on here, I've never experienced the "I struggled to keep my pace down to x:xx / mile", however I have had that run forever feeling - it's hard to beat.

FBOT01

aero2k wrote: »

That's fantastic. Unlike many others on here, I've never experienced the "I struggled to keep my pace down to x:xx / mile", however I have had that run forever feeling - it's hard to beat.

I feel better now that I know I am not alone

yaboya1

Thursday 19th November - 2 x 60 minutes Easy
60 minutes @ 126bpm avg (A.M.)
60 minutes @ 126bpm avg (P.M.)

Two almost identical runs. If the logistics weren't so difficult, I'd run to and from work every day. My mood is so much better afterwards. I hate sitting in traffic or squeezing onto trains that resemble sardine cans.

dublin runner

Forgot to qualify my question, sorry! Are you using the HADD for marathon training or as base training?

yaboya1

dublin runner wrote: »

Forgot to qualify my question, sorry! Are you using the HADD for marathon training or as base training?

I'm hoping to follow the plan (incorporating the two steady sessions per week) right up to the marathon. That's what I did for Hamburg and it worked out ok. For now though, I'm just running easy effort miles until the end of this month to try and get some fitness back. If I did decide to move onto a different plan before the marathon (I don't intend to atm), I think what I'm doing at the moment can only help me.

yaboya1

Friday 20th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 126bpm avg

Easy run home from work. Very cold out there.

dublin runner

yaboya1 wrote:

I'm hoping to follow the plan (incorporating the two steady sessions per week) right up to the marathon. That's what I did for Hamburg and it worked out ok. For now though, I'm just running easy effort miles until the end of this month to try and get some fitness back. If I did decide to move onto a different plan before the marathon (I don't intend to atm), I think what I'm doing at the moment can only help me.

On the old phone so excuse the short reply.

Put shortly and simply, are you not in big danger of overdoing the same approach? How much did your times come down last time, one minute? If it were me I would try something different. I really don't mean for that to come across in a bad way. I really think you are a 2.54 runner.

Have a big think about it. I promised myself that my next marathon cycle will be very different in it's approach. I won't 'rinse and repeat', knocking off a bit here and there.

yaboya1

dublin runner wrote: »

On the old phone so excuse the short reply.

Put shortly and simply, are you not in big danger of overdoing the same approach? How much did your times come down last time, one minute? If it were me I would try something different. I really don't mean for that to come across in a bad way. I really think you are a 2.54 runner.

Have a big think about it. I promised myself that my next marathon cycle will be very different in it's approach. I won't 'rinse and repeat', knocking off a bit here and there.

I take your point and see why you would believe it won't help me achieve much of an improvement. However, I just have a hunch about something and I'm keen to follow it through and see if I'm right. If I feel its not working for me, I can switch to a more conventional approach. I'll be open to criticism if whatever I decide doesn't work. Isn't that what an online log is all about?

yaboya1

Monday 23rd November - 120 minutes Easy
120 minutes @ 132bpm avg

Work & team night out meant no running on Saturday, while I'd hoped to get something done yesterday but tiredness & dehydration got the better of me. Nothing much to say about today. Not as cold as last week, but felt slower.

yaboya1

Tuesday 24th November - 45 minutes Easy
45 minutes @ 125bpm avg

Post work trot. Hope to do similar in the morning.

yaboya1

Wednesday 25th November - 50 minutes Easy
50 minutes @ 126bpm avg

Very similar to yesterday except five minutes longer.

yaboya1

Thursday 26th November - 150 minutes Easy
150 minutes @ 134bpm avg

Fine for most of this, but definitely felt a bit of a slowdown in the last thirty minutes to prevent the HR rising. Will hopefully do better next time.

FBOT01

yaboya1 wrote: »

Thursday 26th November - 150 minutes Easy
150 minutes @ 134bpm avg

Fine for most of this, but definitely felt a bit of a slowdown in the last thirty minutes to prevent the HR rising. Will hopefully do better next time.

Hi P great to see you back with some real consistency in your running since New York. Every cloud and all that

What's the thinking behind going out for as long as 150mins? I would have thought that 90/120mins would have been more than enough in one go if rebuilding the aerobic base is the plan at the moment?

PS I haven't read the HADD stuff so excuse my ignorance if the 150mins is in line with that and you are just doing what he says:o

yaboya1

FBOT01 wrote: »

Hi P great to see you back with some real consistency in your running since New York. Every cloud and all that

What's the thinking behind going out for as long as 150mins? I would have thought that 90/120mins would have been more than enough in one go if rebuilding the aerobic base is the plan at the moment?

PS I haven't read the HADD stuff so excuse my ignorance if the 150mins is in line with that and you are just doing what he says:o

No real thinking behind it tbh. Just trying to get some longer runs in on days I'm off (like today). Tomorrow I'm not going to get to run at all, so I like to think I'm making the most of the opportunities I get atm. I'll have a more detailed look at the HADD stuff again once we hit December.