No blackfaces allowed.

Victor

hfallada wrote: »

Remember its only racist when a majorly dress and acts like a minority. Like the film white chicks isn't racist, but if there was a 90 min film on a white person, dressing and acting like a black person there would be up roar.

Soul Man (1986) - admittedly, it is 104 minutes long.

humbert

Victor wrote: »

Soul Man (1986) - admittedly, it is 104 minutes long.

Not old enough to know how it was received but this is from the first user review:

When Soul Man first came out it got razzed terribly for joking about a sensitive topic. I think the critics didn't quite get the film, they thought it was a racist attack on minorities.

Tin Foil Hat

EyeSight wrote: »

I am not easily offended at all and am very anti PC brigade. But I can see how "black face" would be considered racist

But it isn't racist. It's just black makeup.

timthumbni

I can see how a lot of things can be considered racist but this is not one of them. It's more a respect to the movie. What has happened to people's sense of humour anyway? Would I be offended if a group of black fellas had whited themselves up as say eminem. I wouldn'tgive a crap.

A bit of common sense guys is required. Oddly enough.

JenEffy

I understand why it's seen as racist in America, but I don't see it as racist here. Irish people are so casually racist that I can't imagine anyone here getting offended. People say that it's possible to dress up as a black character without painting your face, but Ellen dressed up as Nicki Minaj for Halloween (minus the black face) and I wouldn't have known who she was supposed to be if it hadn't been pointed out.

Itwasntme.

I wouldn't consider it racist if the intent wasn't racist but it's most definitely insensitive considering its origin and history. I am not sure I agree with the firing either- I think it was an extreme reaction to what was most likely just a careless costume.

But while I understand the argument about the lack of racist intent, I don't get why someone would go ahead and do something that offends a large portion of the population for such a passing pleasure as 'getting the costume right'. If African Americans find black face offensive and racist, then I don't think it should matter that you don't and that your intent is not racist. For me, seeing someone wear black face is equivalent to seeing someone wear a nazi costume. It doesn't matter if to them it's just a cool costume, I still consider them insensitive gits.

I don't think people should black face for no other reason than it's a painful reminder for a lot of people of a very recent, racist history.

Rho b

Wow, just read the comments.
I thought OP's post was about blackface horney ewes been banned from commonage :rolleyes:

Medusa22

I was going to dress up as Selma from the Simpsons for halloween and I got some yellow facepaint to paint myself with. Is that racist against the Simpsons? Ridiculous.

Reekwind

Medusa22 wrote: »

I was going to dress up as Selma from the Simpsons for halloween and I got some yellow facepaint to paint myself with. Is that racist against the Simpsons? Ridiculous.

Yes, that's exactly the same. Because black people are fictional cartoon characters. Right :rolleyes:

JenEffy wrote:

I understand why it's seen as racist in America, but I don't see it as racist here. Irish people are so casually racist that I can't imagine anyone here getting offended

Because there are no black people in Ireland?

And lest we think that minstrel era was an American phenomenon, let's not forget that the Black and White Minstrel Show was on the BBC until 1978...

Sunglasses Ron

MagicMarker wrote: »

Hey, I know, let's dress up as a black person for Halloween.

Utterly fùckin moronic.

So let's say there is a cash prize fancy dress and I have been toying between going as either, I don't know, Del Boy Trotter or Edgar Davids (black Dutch footballer of a few years back known for his distinctive hair and funky sunglasses). Or Jules from Pulp Fiction.

And I want to win the contest. And I reckon I can pull off one of the black characters better. I can't do it?

Should black people be barred from entering fancy dress contests by portraying famous white characters?

Should the likes of Beyonce and Mario Balotelli be banned from dying their hair various shades of blonde because they are genetically incapable of growing it themselves?

Some people need to get a ****in grip.

April O Neill

Itwasntme. wrote: »

I wouldn't consider it racist if the intent wasn't racist but it's most definitely insensitive considering its origin and history.

A big part of the blackface thing though, was portraying black people as stupid. Much like the popular portrayal of Irish people in the UK back in the day. The black paint was to crudely indicate it was black people who were being mocked, I guess. But the acting was the most offensive part, IMO.

Reekwind

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

And I want to win the contest. And I reckon I can pull off one of the black characters better. I can't do it?

If it involves blackface, no. Feel free to use the Jules wig, suit and gun but don't 'black up'

Should the likes of Beyonce and Mario Balotelli be banned from dying their hair various shades of blonde because they are genetically incapable of growing it themselves?

Is there some national TV show that I'm not aware of in which black people have dyed their hair blonde and then acted out a variety of racist caricatures of white people?

Because that's what all this is about. There would be no problem with anyone 'blacking up'* if it wasn't for the fact that this 'costume' is strongly associated with those racist shows of the last century. Make-up is fine, black face-paint is fine, racist stereotypes are not fine. And whether or not you make the association between blackface and the minstrel shows is irrelevant because you are not the one being offended

*With good cause of course. There's an obvious problem with going as 'a black person' at Halloween, as if being a different ethnicity was costume enough. But this is more commonly seen with Arabs

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Young lad up the road dressed up as Mario Balotelli this year. Face was painted black and all.

Looked class and I don't even like football.

The kid is white by the way, he painted his face black.

Sunglasses Ron

Reekwind wrote: »

If it involves blackface, no. Feel free to use the Jules wig, suit and gun but don't 'black up'

But it is an essential part of the character. Without blacking up I would look like I was one of the Harry Enfield Scousers on a court appearance.

There would be no problem with anyone 'blacking up'* if it wasn't for the fact that this 'costume' is strongly associated with those racist shows of the last century.

I somehow doubt most Nigerians in Ireland would make the connection to long forgotten TV and stage shows from Britain and the deep south that they have probably never heard of.

Sinfonia

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

I somehow doubt most Nigerians in Ireland would make the connection to long forgotten TV and stage shows from Britain and the deep south that they have probably never heard of.

The story in question happened in San Diego.

--LOS--

I don't see the racism tbh, my classmates dressed as the ghostbusters characters before, not for a second did I consider the guy dressed as the black dude was being racist.

newport2

So we'll probably end up in a situation where nobody who is not black can wear fancy-dress of a black character.

And then a few years down the line that someone will say:

"Why doesn't anyone dress up as black characters? Racism, that's why. And I'm offended on behalf of the black community that people only want to dress up as white characters."

Sleepy

I'd see the false outrage as far more damaging to equality than someone wearing brown make-up to make themselves look more like a character they're dressing up as for halloween. I have to say, I'd also see a massive difference between wearing brown make-up and the traditional "black face" make-up used in vaudeville etc. One reasonably accurately alters the skin-tone of the wearer to make them look more like someone else whilst the other is the territory of ill-willed caricature. Stretching the offence felt at the historical use of one form of make-up to cover the other, just serves to create more divisions between groups of people.

Honestly, I think the costume is great and, to be frank, isn't a group of white people dressing up as some inspirational black athletes not a perfect display of a lack of racism on their part? They want to dress up as a group of people they admire and while their use of make-up demonstrates they appreciate that they have physical differences from those their paying homage to, it really is no different to donning a wig. If these guys really were racists, surely they'd be using the make-up to dress up as negative rather than heroic figures? Or simply not wearing it at all.

I get that the black-face make-up of yesteryear was something done to ridicule and mock. I get that it deprived black actors of employment. I get that not only was it offensive but that it was damaging too. I still don't think that any of this constitutes a valid reason for someone to avoid wearing make-up when trying to depict a person of another race. If the depiction the make-up is being used to assist is racist i.e. implies that the person is lesser for being of that race, it's still not the make-up that's offensive, it's the idiot wearing it.

Incidentally, has anyone asked the Jamaicans being paid tribute to if they were offended by the make-up?

Duggy747

Telling someone that it's inherently wrong to dress up as a black-coloured character (Cool Runnings, Mr. T, etc) in a harmless context keeps a division of sorts between race and keeps the tone that we are not equal.

I'm pretty sure none of these guys actually participated in the actual racism of blackface shenanigans decades ago.

You'd understand someone doing an actual blackface (white lips, minstrel outfit, "Oooh Lawdy" stereotype quotes, etc) but being offended about someone blacking up to complete a costume of a black person because they make the instant connection to that type of blackface from yesteryear is ridiculous.

It's about context, for fùck sake.

Reekwind

Duggy747 wrote: »

Telling someone that it's inherently wrong to dress up as a black-coloured character (Cool Runnings, Mr. T, etc) in a harmless context keeps a division of sorts between race and keeps the tone that we are not equal.

I'm pretty sure none of these guys actually participated in the actual racism of blackface shenanigans decades ago.

You'd understand someone doing an actual blackface (white lips, minstrel outfit, "Oooh Lawdy" stereotype quotes, etc) but being offended about someone blacking up to complete a costume of a black person because they make the instant connection to that type of blackface from yesteryear is ridiculous.

It's about context, for fùck sake.

Irishman to black Americans: Stop taking offense, you're contributing to racism

Shenshen

Reekwind wrote: »

Is there some national TV show that I'm not aware of in which black people have dyed their hair blonde and then acted out a variety of racist caricatures of white people?

Because that's what all this is about. There would be no problem with anyone 'blacking up'* if it wasn't for the fact that this 'costume' is strongly associated with those racist shows of the last century. Make-up is fine, black face-paint is fine, racist stereotypes are not fine. And whether or not you make the association between blackface and the minstrel shows is irrelevant because you are not the one being offended

*With good cause of course. There's an obvious problem with going as 'a black person' at Halloween, as if being a different ethnicity was costume enough. But this is more commonly seen with Arabs

Er... have you ever heard of the film "White Chicks"?

I assume you would also cry racism anytime a Brit dons an orange wig and pulls a rude imitation of a West Cork accent?

newport2

Duggy747 wrote: »

Telling someone that it's inherently wrong to dress up as a black-coloured character (Cool Runnings, Mr. T, etc) in a harmless context keeps a division of sorts between race and keeps the tone that we are not equal.

This.

If we want to eradicate racism, it means treating everyone the same. Keeping clauses of special treatment for various groups of people preserves the notion that we are not equal.

newport2

Reekwind wrote: »

Irishman to black Americans: Stop taking offense, you're contributing to racism

Black American's to Irishman: Most of us are not taking offence. It's white people who want to see us treated differently because we are black who are taking offence, totally missing the irony when they use the word racism to describe it.

Lingua Franca

Are you actually claiming to speak on behalf on black Americans?

Wow.

Well, I suppose if the NAACP spokeswoman's opinion on racism is invalid because her organisation has the word "coloured" in the name then white Irish people will just *have* to take up the slack.

keithclancy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36jwS3yoGJY

I am outraged

newport2

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Are you actually claiming to speak on behalf on black Americans?

Wow.

Well, I suppose if the NAACP spokeswoman's opinion on racism is invalid because her organisation has the word "coloured" in the name then white Irish people will just *have* to take up the slack.

OK, fair enough. I meant it tongue in cheek.

Duggy747

Reekwind wrote: »

Irishman to black Americans: Stop taking offense, you're contributing to racism

Duggy wrote: »

"Black Americans, stop taking offense because you're contributing to racism"

Yes, that's exactly what my post meant and was aimed specifically at black people....

Reekwind

Duggy747 wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly what my post meant and was aimed specifically at black people....

Pretty much. In insisting that it's "ridiculous" to get offended about blackface you are dismissing the feeling of those black people who did make the minstrel connection and who were offended. And who are you to blithely disregard them so?

The fact, and this is not an opinion, is that plenty of black people find blackface offensive. This isn't something that's up for debate and it's not something that the 'reasoning' in this thread is going to change. (Not even if it means that you can't create your perfect Halloween costume.) And, frankly, the idea that we should tell black people what they can/can't get offended by is pretty "ridiculous".

And, to be clear, I'm not offended by blackface. I'm disgusted and disappointed by the attitudes that many here have but, like most non-Irish racial slurs, it doesn't cause any offence on a personal level. Because it's not aimed at me.

The idea that calling attention to anyone insensitive enough to, however inadvertently, cause racial offence is actually "keeping a division of sorts between race" is absurd enough that my initial sarcasm should suffice as a response

Shenshen wrote:

Er... have you ever heard of the film "White Chicks"?

Yes. It's not very good. It is not however remotely comparable to the minstrel shows. It's a bit worrying that anyone would suggest that it's on the same level; that would suggest ignorance as to the depths plumbed in the minstrel era

dj jarvis

and next up we have New Zealand's entry for is it racist, or is it not !!

http://i.imgur.com/tss2KMR.jpg

Sam Kade

Next it will be racist to call someone Eamon :eek:

Jimmy Macnulty

For our Halloween party I dressed as Mr T cuz I think he's fcuking cool and I looked fcuking cool!! Problem??

Reekwind

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm disgusted and disappointed by the attitudes that many here have but, like most non-Irish racial slurs, it doesn't cause any offence on a personal level. Because it's not aimed at me.

Oh well then you win.:rolleyes:

Reekwind

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh well then you win.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Unless you want me to unfurl the standard of this mythical 'PC brigade'* and claim to be hysterically and deeply offended myself?

*Question: are the letters PC ever followed by anything other than 'brigade' or 'gone mad'? 'World', perhaps

Davei141

Reekwind wrote: »

And, to be clear, I'm not offended by blackface. I'm disgusted and disappointed by the attitudes that many here have but, like most non-Irish racial slurs, it doesn't cause any offence on a personal level. Because it's not aimed at me.

Disgusted by the attitudes in this thread to a Halloween costume? I wonder what words you would use for actual racism. BS like this devalues legitimate complaints of racism.

Reekwind

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm not sure I know what you mean. Unless you want me to unfurl the standard of this mythical 'PC brigade'* and claim to be hysterically and deeply offended myself?

*Question: are the letters PC ever followed by anything other than 'brigade' or 'gone mad'? 'World', perhaps

Oh you're just disgusted and disappointed but not offended. Nicely done.

hatrickpatrick

The clip's been deleted from YouTube, but does anyone remember Pat Kenny asking an aspiring young dancer whether, because most of the famous dancers in New York were black, he would "put a bit of coal around his face" to fit in?

FearDark

This is currently flying up towards the top of Reddit right now. Somebodys black friend dressed up as it for haloween. God I hope he loses his job and there is outrage over it :rolleyes:

JRant

Reekwind wrote: »

If it involves blackface, no. Feel free to use the Jules wig, suit and gun but don't 'black up'

Is there some national TV show that I'm not aware of in which black people have dyed their hair blonde and then acted out a variety of racist caricatures of white people?

Because that's what all this is about. There would be no problem with anyone 'blacking up'* if it wasn't for the fact that this 'costume' is strongly associated with those racist shows of the last century. Make-up is fine, black face-paint is fine, racist stereotypes are not fine. And whether or not you make the association between blackface and the minstrel shows is irrelevant because you are not the one being offended

*With good cause of course. There's an obvious problem with going as 'a black person' at Halloween, as if being a different ethnicity was costume enough. But this is more commonly seen with Arabs

There's an obvious problem with not being able to differentiate between dressing up as a minstrel and a jamacian bobsleigh team though.

smcgiff

Reekwind wrote: »

And, frankly, the idea that we should tell black people what they can/can't get offended by is pretty "ridiculous".

Correct. But that doesn't mean what people find offensive should be automatically pandered to. Some people find it offensive not being allowed to fully cover their identity using Burkas. Yet a suspected/potential terrorist used it to flee surveillance today.

I'm going to be accused false equivalence again, but the point I'm making is that it's not a good idea to hold what some people find offensive as automatically verboten.

Stark

FearDark wrote: »

This is currently flying up towards the top of Reddit right now. Somebodys black friend dressed up as it for haloween. God I hope he loses his job and there is outrage over it :rolleyes:

It's okay; it would only be offensive if he put on white face paint.

Paramite Pie

Reekwind wrote: »

*With good cause of course. There's an obvious problem with going as 'a black person' at Halloween, as if being a different ethnicity was costume enough. But this is more commonly seen with Arabs

To be fair, people dress up as babies, old ladies and even Miley Cyrus for halloween. Everything is a potential costume these days.

These guys didn't do the 'blackface' thing. They simply painted their skin a much darker tone to match the character's they were playing but they didn't do the minstrel thing which is a pretty distinctive (and offensive) style.

One of my best friends is black and her boyfriend went as Mr. T, paint and all. Were some people offended? Probably.... but I'd wager that those who were offended were White, Middle/Upper Class Arts students.:pac:

I went as Aladdin last year, does that make me racist since I went as an Arab? Context is important.

Ridley

A little while ago Racebending.com's tumblr re-tumbld (or whatever the word for that is) a chart for these scenarios.

Shenshen

Reekwind wrote: »

Pretty much. In insisting that it's "ridiculous" to get offended about blackface you are dismissing the feeling of those black people who did make the minstrel connection and who were offended. And who are you to blithely disregard them so?

The fact, and this is not an opinion, is that plenty of black people find blackface offensive. This isn't something that's up for debate and it's not something that the 'reasoning' in this thread is going to change. (Not even if it means that you can't create your perfect Halloween costume.) And, frankly, the idea that we should tell black people what they can/can't get offended by is pretty "ridiculous".

And, to be clear, I'm not offended by blackface. I'm disgusted and disappointed by the attitudes that many here have but, like most non-Irish racial slurs, it doesn't cause any offence on a personal level. Because it's not aimed at me.

The idea that calling attention to anyone insensitive enough to, however inadvertently, cause racial offence is actually "keeping a division of sorts between race" is absurd enough that my initial sarcasm should suffice as a response

When did it become a human right not to be offended?

There are plenty of people out there who are offended at the notion of women revealing too much of their bodies (their faces, for example), so should I dress in a way that will not offend them?
Others get offended by the sight of overweight or obese people - should all fat folks be forced to fork out for liposuction so as not to offend others? Or if they can't afford that, never leave their houses and keep away from the windows?

Yes. It's not very good. It is not however remotely comparable to the minstrel shows. It's a bit worrying that anyone would suggest that it's on the same level; that would suggest ignorance as to the depths plumbed in the minstrel era

Never claimed it was any good. And the only one going on about "minstrels" seems to be your own good self - I'm simply referring to the case the OP mentioned, a couple of white guys dressing up as black Jamaicans for a laugh.

Sinfonia

Shenshen wrote: »

There are plenty of people out there who are offended at the notion of women revealing too much of their bodies (their faces, for example), so should I dress in a way that will not offend them?
Others get offended by the sight of overweight or obese people - should all fat folks be forced to fork out for liposuction so as not to offend others? Or if they can't afford that, never leave their houses and keep away from the windows?

Look, you've obviously got a point in principle.
But it's easy to speak in absolutist terms when you're completely removed from the contextual aspects of this.

Go to Chicago, or New Orleans, or LA etc. and notice the disparity in wealth between white people and black people; feel the racial tension that still exists, that's still - for many - an everyday talking point.
This isn't ancient history with information only accessible from books.
There are people alive right now who lived under the Jim Crow laws.

Shenshen

Sinfonia wrote: »

Look, you've obviously got a point in principle.
But it's easy to speak in absolutist terms when you're completely removed from the contextual aspects of this.

Go to Chicago, or New Orleans, or LA etc. and notice the disparity in wealth between white people and black people; feel the racial tension that still exists, that's still - for many - an everyday talking point.
This isn't ancient history with information only accessible from books.
There are people alive right now who lived under the Jim Crow laws.

I'm not in any way or form defending racial discrimination, nor do I want to downplay the historic facts - I just don't see those costumes as offensive.

Would it be offensive for someone to dress up as Scarlett O'Hara? Surely that would have much nastier connotations than a Jamaican bob-sled team?

I get the feeling that a lot of the "offence" is a knee-jerk reaction at a couple of white guys daring to paint their faces black, in the same way that the Dutch are currently in the spotlight for having a tradition of having their Santa Claus helped not by elves but by little chimney sweeps - who are also painted black.

Sinfonia

Shenshen wrote: »

Would it be offensive for someone to dress up as Scarlett O'Hara? Surely that would have much nastier connotations than a Jamaican bob-sled team?

Forgive my ignorance, I haven't seen/read Gone With The Wind.. What's the deal with her?

Shenshen

Sinfonia wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, I haven't seen/read Gone With The Wind.. What's the deal with her?

She's just the first character to come into my head when thinking "slave owner".

tin79

FearDark wrote: »

This is currently flying up towards the top of Reddit right now. Somebodys black friend dressed up as it for haloween. God I hope he loses his job and there is outrage over it :rolleyes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Lingua Franca

Shenshen wrote: »

And the only one going on about "minstrels" seems to be your own good self

Shenshen wrote: »

I get the feeling that a lot of the "offence" is a knee-jerk reaction at a couple of white guys daring to paint their faces black, in the same way that the Dutch are currently in the spotlight for having a tradition of having their Santa Claus helped not by elves but by little chimney sweeps - who are also painted black.

I get the feeling that you only read the first and last pages of the thread.

Minstrels and Zwarte Piet have already been extensively covered.

RickyRoss

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I get the feeling that you only read the first and last pages of the thread.

Minstrels and Zwarte Piet have already been extensively covered.

i read the first last and middle pages:D