The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I wish you posted around here more often. Thanks lads.

I do try, Paul. Twice a week.......



What, you meant him......

El CabaIIo

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I wish you posted around here more often. Thanks lads.

As the grouchiest man I've ever come across said this week "Mr Ed has nothing to say, unless he has something to say."

OOnegative wrote: »

Still reads like a trigonometry equation to me!!

Haha, it's all biological science so it's not far off and it's really hard to explain.

Anything slower than 2 hour race pace is fully aerobic(your muscles have enough air

Anything between 1 and 2 hour race pace(your muscles are a little short on air)

Anything faster than 1 hour pace(your muscles are getting nowhere near enough air)

Swashbuckler

El CabaIIo wrote:

I probably confused everyone with that explanation but that's the best I could come up with

Yes, yes you did but then redeemed yourself with the TLDR. Haha

El CabaIIo

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Yes, yes you did but then redeemed yourself with the TLDR. Haha

Haha, yeah I made that more complicated than the already complicated original post so edited out all the confusing paragraphs. Don't want to make it more convoluted than it already is. Give me some time and I'll think out a better methaphor for what's happening.

Murph_D

What’s the source of these tempo definitions, E? Only ask because of the confusion around the word - I’ve been looking at Hanson training the past couple of years, where Tempo = HM pace. Oh, unless it’s a marathon plan, where tempo = MP.

In other words, a meaningless term in and of itself. For me, it will always equate to one-hour race pace - somewhere between 10k and 10m - because that’s where I first came across the term, either on boards or P&D.

El CabaIIo

Murph_D wrote: »

What’s the source of these tempo definitions, E? Only ask because of the confusion around the word - I’ve been looking at Hanson training the past couple of years, where Tempo = HM pace. Oh, unless it’s a marathon plan, where tempo = MP.

In other words, a meaningless term in and of itself. For me, it will always equate to one-hour race pace - somewhere between 10k and 10m - because that’s where I first came across the term, either on boards or P&D.

I don't have a source for that tbh as there is no real definition hence the confusion. I just used aerobic tempo and lactate tempo to describe them because that's pretty much what they are and it helps differentiate them when explaining.

Yeah, the term tempo really means nothing because if something has a hundred different definitions from a hundred different people, all meaning is stripped away. Context has to take over then to hone in what that person means so you have to look at the workout and understand it to be able to that.

The same is true of pretty much every workout and term other than tempo as well but the tempo gets more flack as it it one that sticks out the most as different to people. Intervals are another where this happens as well to a smaller degree which spits in the face of my original post but that's a whole other kettle of fish for now. The important part of understanding training is not the term, it's looking beyond that to see what the workout is accomplishing, why you do it and context of it. I think the old saying of don't judge a book by it's cover is an apt phrase for it.

Duanington

El CabaIIo wrote: »

The important part of understanding training is not the term, it's looking beyond that to see what the workout is accomplishing, why you do it and context of it. I think the old saying of don't judge a book by it's cover is an apt phrase for it.

+1 to this

overpronator

Scullion gave a good definition of his how he sees Tempo on one of his Q&A pods there recently.

As was alluded to people actually get wound up by what tempo means and by extension achieves. The most important thing is that the session provides the desired training effect within the realms of the larger training plan.

El CabaIIo

overpronator wrote: »

Scullion gave a good definition of his how he sees Tempo on one of his Q&A pods there recently.

As was alluded to people actually get wound up by what tempo means and by extension achieves. The most important thing is that the session provides the desired training effect within the realms of the larger training plan.

I agree, workouts and runs are all part of the bigger picture and how they fit among everything else. I think there is an element of being able to understand what workouts achieve though especially in the learning process as to get the bigger picture, you need to be able to put together the small pieces. If you don't see how the jigsaw is put together, it's stunts the ability to see that big overall picture.

I went looking for info on Salazar's training this morning and any info is rare but I came across a video on runnerspace.

https://www.runnerspace.com/video.php?video_id=189175

The main thing that stuck out to me was when Alberto was asked to describe his coaching philosophy, he turned to Galen and said he should answer first and how important it is for the athlete to understand the training and the workouts because it creates a better environment for athlete feedback. The better the runner understands the elements of training, the more they can help the coach or understand what they need themselves or where adjustments need to be made. I thought that was an absolutely brilliant move by him in front of a school kids and their coaches.

I feel if something gets watered down to very broad strokes rather getting into the nitty gritty, a barrier is created to learning. So while we agree on how something fits into overall training is the most important part of training, if you never delve deeper into how to fit it and why it fits, that big picture has no meaning imo.

AuldManKing

Sorry to interrupt this 'training talk' with such banal matters as training (seriously - I do like when these sorts of conversations just appear on peoples logs - its more natural than starting a thread on it and less fear of an argument


Friday:

I have little recollection of this - but Strava tells me I ran to the PP and ran down the Furze and back home.

6.4m @ 8.30 pace

Saturday: I had hopes (moreso than expectation) of doing my long run today - It was a 2.5 hour 'time on feet' run that JD puts intermittently into the schedules.

I was up early enough and out the door, but knew after a couple of miles that the legs were still too tired - I done just over 7 miles and went home.

7.65m @ 8.10 pace


Sunday: After being at a 50th on Sat night for one of the running communities gentlemen (RH from Dunboyne), I was up at 7 and out by 7.45 to meet up with the 8am crew. I got to the park and there were no 8am crew there - so just set off on the 6m route that I knew would get me back to the CK gate for 8.45 for the next crew.

Got back in time and had a good 11 miles with the crew - a few drifted behind, some went off early and a couple went off ahead - I was happy enough at the pace I was at, knowing I had a lot more miles to run. Ran the majority with Sarah, before leaving her - I was at 16 miles then.
I ran down the Uppr Glen Road and had to stop with a queer pain in my left foot - on the ball of my sole - I got going again and it went away (kinda). Last 3m were tough - the mileage this week coupled with last weeks race was probably impacting - a couple of pints on Sat night didn't help matters, not did a daughter getting home at 5am!!

20 miles at 7.43 pace

Sunday evening - Foot a bit sore - the runners I was wearing today - Pegasus 34 - have 340 miles in them - so I'm not sure if its them.
My last long run - 2 weeks ago - I wore the same runner with no issue.
The fact that its on the ball of my foot - says its not as serious as PF, but I'm NOT currently happy with a lot of my running shoe collection - currently about 9 pairs - The Epic Reacts hurt my heel, the Skechers have about a zillion miles in them, the On's are a bit meh, and the rest are structured shoes that I don't like, trail shoes, racers & vapourflys.
Might look at a pair of the Odyssey Reacts - they a bit more padding than the Epics.


Anyway - 70 miles for the week (thats 112km for Johnny) - very happy with that after 2 race weeks with lowish mileage (55'ish)

Duanington

I get a similar niggle from time to time, I actually had it yesterday....2 days of standing on my feet for 4\5 hours and then a session yesterday afternoon, tired feet basically triggering some weakness or other.

It ties in with other times its popped up, ( running the day after a concert etc)

Not a peep out of it this morning after a good sleep

AuldManKing

Monday: 7 miles on the trails in the PP - great to run again on grass and the legs felt remarkably good following Sundays long run.

7m@8.15 pace.

Followed this up with a good S&C session - I purchased a McMillan 'Marathon Legs' s&c schedule as it has good progressions etc - I'll incorporate 2 of Lukes workouts (Single leg deadlifts/ Physio ball curls) into these as well.

Theres 1 workout - an isometric lunge - it was 3x30secs for each leg - unlike other lunges, you hold this one for 30 secs. Jesus H Christ - after 3 sets I was feeling it.

Tuesday: Legs very tired from the S&C stuff - ran down to the park - listening to the latest on Sculls 'Will I, wont I' with London.
Its compelling listening I think - but he does flip flop at times - Is he making an emotional decision regarding London - I think he is.
The ScullFriday stuff was good this week.

Finished off with 8x20secs strides - really like doing these, they keep turnover going and make tired legs feel good.

Iced the foot later in the evening.

9m - 8.30'ish

Wednesday: Session: 8x5mins Tempo - 30secs recovery

I prepared well for this - 2 breakfasts - actually I always have 2 breakfasts - about 2 litres of water - pasta for lunch and a donut......yes a donut - I'm weak, I know.

I nearly didn't do the session as I was trying on different shoes - some hurting the heel - others hurting the ball of my foot......I settled on the Epics as they gave the best cushioning to the ball - but the heel was in a jock.

During the warmup (2.5mile) it felt uncomfortable on the heel - but once I got moving on the 1st set of the tempo - they settled down. Didnt notice anything negative with the heel or the ball of my foot during the session.

The session went great - I felt very strong out there - I had 6.05's in my head for the tempos, based on recent races - the 30 secs recovery goes so quickly. its like.........like 30 seconds.

I chose a similar route to the 2x3m tempo that I done recently, but I was chasing daylight by the end, so ran where there were lights on the North road.
The wind was quite blustery and going down the North Road offered no help as the wind felt in your face in the exposed parts.

Paces for the 8 reps averaged out at 6.03 - the slowest was 6.09 - 2 laps of the Triangle with a strong wind in places - the quickest was 5.54 - the last rep - feeling very strong.
I felt I could have done 1 more rep - I felt great on finishing actually.

I'm really feeling the fittest that I've felt, possibly ever. Its a shame to waste this fitness on 1 race in April (joking)

Home - more food - and watch the mighty Spurs dismantle Dortmund.
No issues with the foot this evening - heel & ball both behaving very well.
A great evening all over.

2m CD

11.5m total - 6.57 pace ave

Swashbuckler

Really good session A. Out of interest 30s recovery seems very short. Any idea why?

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Really good session A. Out of interest 30s recovery seems very short. Any idea why?

Not really - will "its in the plan" suffice?

Its an interesting one alright.
The workout is specified as an 8x 5 or 6 mins@T - typically when they have a T workout - they also indicate 5 or 6 mins - I've done mile reps as its just a tad over 6 mins.

In this case 8 reps seemed like a lot of volume - so I kept it to the 5mins (0.82m) but the recovery was half of the normal recovery.
It seems like a bigger progression than previous workouts.

I've done 2x2mile (2 minsR) / 2x3mile / 6x1mile with 1min recoveries previously - 1 minute per mile seems to be the normal Daniels rest period for a tempo.

Either way - theres a lot of volume for 40 mins (approx 6.5 miles) the rest periods are short enough to ensure the HR stays high, but the workout is sufficiently 'easier' than a straight 6m tempo (or longer type intervals such as 2x3m).
It is a great workout though!

AuldManKing

Thursday: Parked at Whites gate and done a 7 mile run on the grass. Followed this up with 45 mins of S&C - its no fun doing S&C.....seriously. But then again, neither is cramp in a marathon.

Friday: I had ZERO mojo for this run today - my foot was a bit sore (again) - its the heel (from the epics) the ball of my foot - I reckon from bad day shoes (Sketchers) and my ankle (from God knows what) - all in my left foot - sore when not running - fine once I get going.

Managed to get out and finished off 7 miles at 8.34 pace inc 9x20s strides.

Saturday: Up early enough for todays MONSTER long run - it was a 21 miler comprised of: 2E / 2x2m Tempo / 10 miles Easy/ 3m Tempo/2Easy..................Otherwise known as "WTF"

I drove down to the PP with a pair of runners on me - plus 2 more in the car - just in case my left foot flared up in some way.

The 2mile Easy went well - no issue with the foot - but I changed into the Vapours for the 2x2m section as they were the most comfortable given the cushioning etc.
The 2x2m went well - it was a fair enough route with good ups & downs - the splits were 12.08 / 12.04 - with a 2 min recovery - happy with that.
Changed into my Skechers runners (a great shoe - very under estimated) and done the 10 mile easy - I didn't look at the watch during this, just listened to Scullion for a good bit (Its my goto podcast these days - some of his stuff is great) and a great interview by Richie Sadlier on 2nd Captains with the Irish Ladies (retired) goalkeeper, Emma Byrne - a great interview. Looking back most of the miles were 7:XX which surprised me as they felt very comfortable - I'm getting very good at running slower these days so any run in the 7's seems fast.

I finished up just short of 10 miles and changed into the Vapourflys again for the final 3m tempo - I expected this to be done at MP as the legs were tired, but I got into it and it went very well.
I was so surprised that after 16 miles, I could run 6.05/mile for 3 miles - it was tough, but doable. Again - finished by wishing I had a 5k coming up!!
Changed back to the Skechers for the final 2m cool down - surprised myself as I felt much better than last weeks 20m one paced run.

I do wonder if changing pace in the long runs improve your form/mobility as keeping to the same pace for 20+ miles tends to make me quite sore and immobile later on??

21 miles - 2hr 31mins - 7:12/mile

Sunday: Again I had little appetite for this run, so ventured down to the PP to run on grass as it might perk me up. Just before I started, I was doing my usual dynamic stretches (leg swings) and a buddy of mine ran by whose got into running lately. I offered to run with him and had a great run at a really good recovery pace - just what I needed and one of the most enjoyable runs this week.
Why cant I run at this pace on my own??

7m at 9.16 pace

Followed this with another 40 mins of S&C - If I get cramp in Rotterdam - I'm never running a Marathon again nor am I ever doing S&C again.

Well - the above might not be quite true.............


70 miles for the week -

An enjoyable week - 2 great sessions - 2 good S&C sessions - 2 sets of strides and a lot of slowish running.

This week coming has a session on Tues (4x2T) and Friday (15m MP - broken into intervals) - plus my wifes b'day party on Saturday (its a biggie)

Well done to DD today on Seville - I know he's not overly happy with the time - he's worth faster than that, but its a great PB for him and I'm delighted to see him running the Marathon after his issues over the last couple of years. More to come for sure.

healy1835

I say this with absolutely no science to back me up and could be completely wrong .......but it couldn't be a good thing to change runners that amount of times during the same run?

Murph_D

healy1835 wrote: »

I say this with absolutely no science to back me up and could be completely wrong .......but it couldn't be a good thing to change runners that amount of times during the same run?

I think it’s fine as long as he left the watch running while changing shoes!

Swashbuckler

I couldn't do it. I get annoyed stopping for traffic on an easy run nevermind stopping a few times to change runners!

AuldManKing

healy1835 wrote: »

I say this with absolutely no science to back me up and could be completely wrong .......but it couldn't be a good thing to change runners that amount of times during the same run?

Murph_D wrote: »

I think it’s fine as long as he left the watch running while changing shoes!

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I couldn't do it. I get annoyed stopping for traffic on an easy run nevermind stopping a few times to change runners!

This was a lesson in stupidity.

"I've got a sore foot"

so - rather than just running easy - or resting it - why dont I run a hard long run, and change my runners during the session to help ease the pain when I run the harder parts.

oh yes -

those runners that I change into - they're quite expensive and have a limited mileage in them - but its grand, I'll get the session done and wear down the mileage even more.

But the foot will be grand.

Swashbuckler

So how's the foot today?

healy1835

AuldManKing wrote: »

This was a lesson in stupidity.

"I've got a sore foot"

so - rather than just running easy - or resting it - why dont I run a hard long run, and change my runners during the session to help ease the pain when I run the harder parts.

oh yes -

those runners that I change into - they're quite expensive and have a limited mileage in them - but its grand, I'll get the session done and wear down the mileage even more.

But the foot will be grand.

Those same runners are still on top of my wardrobe.....will be broken out before Limerick

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

So how's the foot today?

The ball of the foot is improving a lot as each day passes - wearing different 'day' shoes seems to help a lot.

I think the Epics wrecked my heel's - there's no padding on the heel on them - so just waiting for that to 'heel'

Might buy a pair of Odyssey Reacts in the Nike Outlet - they've similar cushioning to the Epics but heel padding.

Murph_D

Yes, it's the waste of vaporfly miles that concerns me the most.

RayCun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfDyOyrY-zM

AuldManKing

Totally sponge worthy!

overpronator

When I hear heel pain i automatically think......well I won't say it but it begins with P and ends with months upon months out. Be careful man......

*Edit savage training by the way. You're flying.

healy1835

AuldManKing wrote: »

The ball of the foot is improving a lot as each day passes - wearing different 'day' shoes seems to help a lot.

I think the Epics wrecked my heel's - there's no padding on the heel on them - so just waiting for that to 'heel'

Might buy a pair of Odyssey Reacts in the Nike Outlet - they've similar cushioning to the Epics but heel padding.

Odysseys are in there at the moment for €84....but there's 20 quid off if you spend 100 so if you've a couple of bits to get it might be worth your while alright.

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

Odysseys are in there at the moment for €84....but there's 20 quid off if you spend 100 so if you've a couple of bits to get it might be worth your while alright.

Currently on Sportsshoes for €67 in various colours if you fancy saving a few bob.

Swashbuckler

Yeah sportshoes have a big sale for today only. Somebody tell beepbeep

PaulieYifter

Hope you put a request in to Strava to allow you to attach multiple shoes with relevant proportions to a single run.