The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

OOnegative

Have you ever thought the issues you’ve suffered in the past with the hamstrings at the business end of a marathon are due to the lack of familiarity with gels over a training period?

I know science doesn’t say so but we’re all different, maybe you need to use them the whole way through a marathon cycle or maybe you don’t need them at all?

FBOT01

OOnegative wrote: »

Have you ever thought the issues you’ve suffered in the past with the hamstrings at the business end of a marathon are due to the lack of familiarity with gels over a training period?

I know science doesn’t say so but we’re all different, maybe you need to use them the whole way through a marathon cycle or maybe you don’t need them at all?

I was actually thinking the same myself after noting a few references on Strava to long runs and big sessions with little or no hydration or nutrition and then some comments re: the hammys being the only thing stopping AMK running the Olympic qualifying time:D

Joking aside giving the lack of problems with the hamstrings and cramping during training the issue has to be down to something that is being done differently the run up to race day or in the race itself;

• Is it an overuse/fatigue issue that is triggered by taper?
• Is it race anxiety related?
• Is it simply down to taking on fluid and nutrition that the body is not used to having to progress at MP?

Hopefully, it won't be an issue this time around and that we won't have to revisit these questions again.

AuldManKing

OOnegative wrote: »

Have you ever thought the issues you’ve suffered in the past with the hamstrings at the business end of a marathon are due to the lack of familiarity with gels over a training period?

I know science doesn’t say so but we’re all different, maybe you need to use them the whole way through a marathon cycle or maybe you don’t need them at all?

FBOT01 wrote: »

I was actually thinking the same myself after noting a few references on Strava to long runs and big sessions with little or no hydration or nutrition and then some comments re: the hammys being the only thing stopping AMK running the Olympic qualifying time:D

Joking aside giving the lack of problems with the hamstrings and cramping during training the issue has to be down to something that is being done differently the run up to race day or in the race itself;

• Is it an overuse/fatigue issue that is triggered by taper?
• Is it race anxiety related?
• Is it simply down to taking on fluid and nutrition that the body is not used to having to progress at MP?

Hopefully, it won't be an issue this time around and that we won't have to revisit these questions again.

Thanks Gents - concern duly noted!

I have taken on gels during races in the past and cramped - I've also taken on gels during training for these races. So I am quite sure that its not a nutrition issue.

I do believe its a 'form' issue, possibly linked to my height/weight/build - whereby my form changes later into a Marathon and pulls more at the hamstrings/flexors.
With DCM being a good bit uphill, that also puts an additional pull on the hammys early on - I wont have this in R'Dam (& didn't have it in San Seb)

It wouldn't be a race anxiety issue as I didn't feel any for DCM 18 and was quite happy up until they went again.

Strengthening my core and my hamstrings are the key aspects that I'm focusing on this time that I didn't focus on previously.

I'm not focusing on anything else at this point.

I'm like an N of 1 experiment

Swashbuckler

To add, surely running 42km at that pace is very different to a session with easy miles in between. Definitely a form/fatigue thing. The sessions have easy parts that allow you to recover your form.

FBOT01

Swashbuckler wrote: »

To add, surely running 42km at that pace is very different to a session with easy miles in between. Definitely a form/fatigue thing. The sessions have easy parts that allow you to recover your form.

Indeed.

Looking forward to seeing the results of the S&C experiment. We can then have a discussion with actual information to learn from rather than continuing to speculate and giving A too much to think about during taper;)

Swashbuckler

FBOT01 wrote:

Looking forward to seeing the results of the S&C experiment. We can then have a discussion with actual information to learn from rather than continuing to speculate and giving A too much to think about during taper

It wouldn't be A's log without some bit of overanalysis on his mental state. Haha.

That being said, even strength and conditioning will give no guarantees.

AuldManKing

Thursday: an easy 6m recovery run - mainly on grass.
6m@8.40 pace

Friday: I considered taking a rest day as the legs were tired and I had an S&C session planned.
However - after a good talking to, I set out for a 3 or 4 mile easy run. I made it up to Porterstown and realised that I hadn't done strides this week, so decided to do some on the MSB Grass track. A few strides morphed into 2x(5x40secs) - which I really enjoyed - a 200m jog recovery and about 3 mins between sets.
just under a mile jog home.

6.4m total.

Done a good bit of S&C today - focused on the legs and core big time. 1st time that I was sweating doing an S&C session.
Single leg deadlifts / Glute Bridge using the stairs / Reverse mountain climbers (towels on the feet ) / 5 min plank with variations / Clams with Bands all forming part of my routine.

Sat: Legs were knackered today - probably went too hard on Fridays S&C, but I wanted tired legs for the HM on Sunday.

Spent a few mins foam rolling - out for 5.2miles @ 8.20 pace - then more foam rolling.
Rugby / Over to BalB for the race number / Off to Croker for the match - less said about the 2 games the better.

Sunday: ** My "I'm Not Racing it" race Session report**

The JD plan has 15m at MP set for next week. Personally, I think that’s fine for a 20 something yr old, but for an auldman like me, its too close to race day for that sort of a session. So I pulled it into today and had a choice of Balbriggan or Mullingar half Mara in place of the 15 miles – I chose BB as it was only 30mins from the house.

My plan initially was to run 5m warm up, do the HM and then a short CD.
I got to BB about 7.55 – the HM was down to go off at 8.45 so I set off on the WU, the legs felt very tired and I was wondering about changing the session to include some steady intervals – thankfully I headed back to use the Loo about 8.20’ish and the PA guy was saying that the HM was starting at 8.30!!
The start time on myrunresults was wrong (since been fixed). I didn’t even make the loo ��

We were set off on a count of 5 – pausing a couple of times as there were guys obviously caught like me, scrambling back to the startline. I knew from the off, that the quality wasn’t too high in the field – you can just tell!
After we set off, I found myself in 10th or so, running 6.10 pace – so I cut the pace immediately and watched the guys go around a roundabout, I was in process of following when I got a shout from another runner that it was the wrong way!! 3 mins into a race and going the wrong way already.

The 1st few miles were quite tough with the breeze and the hills – my God the hills were relentless as I wasn’t expecting them.
I thought I was in about 7th or so for a good while but there was an out and back at 4.5miles and confirmed I was 10th with a guy about 1-2mins behind.
Grand I thought – hold the pace and get a MP effort and top 10 finish.

I gained a couple of places as we made it back to the start for the 2nd lap. A good should out from someone who I guess is a Boardsie – apologies I didn’t recognize you.
At this stage I think I was in 6th with 2 guys ahead – Yellow vest & Raheny. Raheny looked very strong.
There were a couple of occasions when the boys turned a couple of close corners that I had to shout at the marshalls to indicate which way I go!

I kept reminding myself that I was doing a MP effort and not racing!
Then at some stage between mile 8&9 I overtook both Yellow vest & Raheny as the fell off the pace – I was maintaining 6.30’s.
The downside of this was that I was now leading them and they’d be chasing me – but I didn’t know where I was going!! (with the exception of some walkers from the 10k).

The 9th mile was my slowest mile (6.38) as there's a hill & headwind to navigate – but I was content to run on effort at that point. I also told myself that if the 2 boys came back to overtake, that I wouldn’t follow and would keep the MP effort up.

Just before mile 10, I was out on my own and could see no one in front, There was a right turn but I wasn’t sure if it was this one or one further up? I turned anyway and thankfully it turned out to be the right one.
Mile 10 has a good stretch downhill and I allowed my legs to open out a bit for my fastest mile (6.21) since the fast 1st mile. Mile 11 follows as well and again a right turn with no one there! I guessed right again.

I was at the out and back section again and could see that I was in 4th and had no one behind me – Raheny had dropped out I think.
The last 2 or so miles were a constant shout of “Coming through” as I was navigating through a torrent of race walkers and the odd tail runners from the 10k.

Coming to the last half mile or so – again having to ask the marshall which way? – these people must think we all know the course!

Rounded the bollards and made it through the finish gantry in 4th place – 1.24.53.

(the PA guy continued to call out the names of the 10k walkers coming through – don’t mind the guy in 4th in the HM )

Great to finish a race and not be spent, the body felt fine although I reckon it was harder than 2.50 MP effort in places with the wind/hills.
Good to meet up with the guy in 2nd – I had ran side by side with him for most of the ¾ mara last year, also met Redrunner and my name sake from previous races.

2.5m cool down – I was going to do longer, but it was freezing at this point and I had 18m done. Enough for the day.

18.2m for the day (13.1m in 1.24.54) (and 4th place – but there was no O40 prize – typical )

The big positive for me from the day was running 6.29 for the full thing, despite feeling tired on the warmup, with a big 18m session in the legs from Wednesday and 2 S&C sessions. Only 1 gel today – opened fine, went down fine, no need for another.

67 miles for the week.

Happy head on me today.

healy1835

Building nicely Alan, looking forward to seeing what you do in 3 weeks time . You're due a raced HM after Rotterdam I think

Baby75

Well done on 4th place and a nicely paced run session:D

I have seen the video on facebook how on earth did they mess it up so badly!!!

Swashbuckler

Sounds like a disaster of a race. Well done. Another big session. You're stringing them together nicely.

jamule

My day was made, I finally got to say helloo to the AMK. There is always been a bit of craic at the church roundabout, looks like you got lucky, I got the leaders gping the right way before you had gone wrong too. You seemed to finish v strong, I thpught I was catching vack around 9-10th mile but you took off down and up the hill at 11miles , I never seen you again until the finish.

https://youtu.be/TrkMDnA91v4

Murph_D

Nice one, A - lucky on the guesswork! Presume you saw this?

Singer

Good stuff in Balbriggan - but even more impressive as a controlled effort in the middle of a load of high milage and super sessions. Looking good.

RedRunner

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thursday: an easy 6m recovery run - mainly on grass.
6m@8.40 pace

Friday: I considered taking a rest day as the legs were tired and I had an S&C session planned.
However - after a good talking to, I set out for a 3 or 4 mile easy run. I made it up to Porterstown and realised that I hadn't done strides this week, so decided to do some on the MSB Grass track. A few strides morphed into 2x(5x40secs) - which I really enjoyed - a 200m jog recovery and about 3 mins between sets.
just under a mile jog home.

6.4m total.

Done a good bit of S&C today - focused on the legs and core big time. 1st time that I was sweating doing an S&C session.
Single leg deadlifts / Glute Bridge using the stairs / Reverse mountain climbers (towels on the feet ) / 5 min plank with variations / Clams with Bands all forming part of my routine.

Sat: Legs were knackered today - probably went too hard on Fridays S&C, but I wanted tired legs for the HM on Sunday.

Spent a few mins foam rolling - out for 5.2miles @ 8.20 pace - then more foam rolling.
Rugby / Over to BalB for the race number / Off to Croker for the match - less said about the 2 games the better.

Sunday: ** My "I'm Not Racing it" race Session report**

The JD plan has 15m at MP set for next week. Personally, I think that’s fine for a 20 something yr old, but for an auldman like me, its too close to race day for that sort of a session. So I pulled it into today and had a choice of Balbriggan or Mullingar half Mara in place of the 15 miles – I chose BB as it was only 30mins from the house.

My plan initially was to run 5m warm up, do the HM and then a short CD.
I got to BB about 7.55 – the HM was down to go off at 8.45 so I set off on the WU, the legs felt very tired and I was wondering about changing the session to include some steady intervals – thankfully I headed back to use the Loo about 8.20’ish and the PA guy was saying that the HM was starting at 8.30!!
The start time on myrunresults was wrong (since been fixed). I didn’t even make the loo ��

We were set off on a count of 5 – pausing a couple of times as there were guys obviously caught like me, scrambling back to the startline. I knew from the off, that the quality wasn’t too high in the field – you can just tell!
After we set off, I found myself in 10th or so, running 6.10 pace – so I cut the pace immediately and watched the guys go around a roundabout, I was in process of following when I got a shout from another runner that it was the wrong way!! 3 mins into a race and going the wrong way already.

The 1st few miles were quite tough with the breeze and the hills – my God the hills were relentless as I wasn’t expecting them.
I thought I was in about 7th or so for a good while but there was an out and back at 4.5miles and confirmed I was 10th with a guy about 1-2mins behind.
Grand I thought – hold the pace and get a MP effort and top 10 finish.

I gained a couple of places as we made it back to the start for the 2nd lap. A good should out from someone who I guess is a Boardsie – apologies I didn’t recognize you.
At this stage I think I was in 6th with 2 guys ahead – Yellow vest & Raheny. Raheny looked very strong.
There were a couple of occasions when the boys turned a couple of close corners that I had to shout at the marshalls to indicate which way I go!

I kept reminding myself that I was doing a MP effort and not racing!
Then at some stage between mile 8&9 I overtook both Yellow vest & Raheny as the fell off the pace – I was maintaining 6.30’s.
The downside of this was that I was now leading them and they’d be chasing me – but I didn’t know where I was going!! (with the exception of some walkers from the 10k).

The 9th mile was my slowest mile (6.38) as there's a hill & headwind to navigate – but I was content to run on effort at that point. I also told myself that if the 2 boys came back to overtake, that I wouldn’t follow and would keep the MP effort up.

Just before mile 10, I was out on my own and could see no one in front, There was a right turn but I wasn’t sure if it was this one or one further up? I turned anyway and thankfully it turned out to be the right one.
Mile 10 has a good stretch downhill and I allowed my legs to open out a bit for my fastest mile (6.21) since the fast 1st mile. Mile 11 follows as well and again a right turn with no one there! I guessed right again.

I was at the out and back section again and could see that I was in 4th and had no one behind me – Raheny had dropped out I think.
The last 2 or so miles were a constant shout of “Coming through” as I was navigating through a torrent of race walkers and the odd tail runners from the 10k.

Coming to the last half mile or so – again having to ask the marshall which way? – these people must think we all know the course!

Rounded the bollards and made it through the finish gantry in 4th place – 1.24.53.

(the PA guy continued to call out the names of the 10k walkers coming through – don’t mind the guy in 4th in the HM )

Great to finish a race and not be spent, the body felt fine although I reckon it was harder than 2.50 MP effort in places with the wind/hills.
Good to meet up with the guy in 2nd – I had ran side by side with him for most of the ¾ mara last year, also met Redrunner and my name sake from previous races.

2.5m cool down – I was going to do longer, but it was freezing at this point and I had 18m done. Enough for the day.

18.2m for the day (13.1m in 1.24.54) (and 4th place – but there was no O40 prize – typical )

The big positive for me from the day was running 6.29 for the full thing, despite feeling tired on the warmup, with a big 18m session in the legs from Wednesday and 2 S&C sessions. Only 1 gel today – opened fine, went down fine, no need for another.

67 miles for the week.

Happy head on me today.

You're making this sh1t look easy these days. Well done and good to catch up today!

AuldManKing

jamule wrote: »

My day was made, I finally got to say helloo to the AMK. There is always been a bit of craic at the church roundabout, looks like you got lucky, I got the leaders gping the right way before you had gone wrong too. You seemed to finish v strong, I thpught I was catching vack around 9-10th mile but you took off down and up the hill at 11miles , I never seen you again until the finish.

https://youtu.be/TrkMDnA91v4

Ah no, were you 5th or 6th - met both, sound lads.

AuldManKing

RedRunner wrote: »

You're making this sh1t look easy these days. Well done and good to catch up today!

My gravestone:

Great trainer, $hit racer!

Nice to see you today.

AuldManKing

Monday 18th: 7miles @8.22 pace -legs feeling quite good today - I done a good 40 mins of S&C too.

Tuesday 19th: Had to leave the car over to be fixed - was waiting on a part for a couple of weeks! - Ran home and included some strides.
9.2m - inc 6x20s strides.
Some core work today.

Wednesday: Session 4x2miles at Tempo (2 mins)

I knew that this would be a difficult session, especially after Sundays run - so I said that I'd change it if I was not feeling it from the off.

The 1st 2m - I found this tough, so said I'd try 1m tempo and 1m MP for the next set.
Next 3 sets went well, but still found the tempo section tough. Picked a fair route.

1: 6:18 / 6:19
2. 6.03 / 6.31
3. 6.07 / 6.25
4. 6.06 / 6.21

Good session.

13 miles total.

Thursday: Ran over to pick the car up - 5.11 miles - 8.25 pace
Headed off for 2 nights with Mrs King. Drunken Debauchery followed.

Friday: Rest day

Saturday: a few miles around the park & back home for some strides (6x20s)
A good 40 mins of S&C prior to the match.(What an awful spectacle)

9.5m @7.57

Went out for dinner - but stayed til closing :rolleyes:

Sunday: Didn't go out til later in order to let the body & mind settle down.
Wasn't quite sure how the body would be after 3 nights on the beer - something that doesn't happen too often.

After a 2m warmup, I set off on a session - I had 4/3/2/1 @MP in my mind, but was ready to adapt it based on how I felt.

Session went ok - was faster than MP is some cases (Wind assisted) and opened up on the last 1m rep.

I could feel the hamstrings during this run, the S&C yesterday & the dehydration probably contributing massively.

4m: 7.03 / 6.29 / 6.29 / 6.27 (Headwind at start and finding my pace)
1mile easy
3m: 6.24 / 6.26 / 6.26
1mile easy
2m: 6.24 / 6.30
3 mins jog
1m: 6.05

With WU & CD this came to 16.5 miles.

Felt a bit $hit afterwards - I's say massively dehydrated. But grand now.
No more beer til after the marathon.

60.5 miles for the week.

Taper time

AuldManKing

Monday 25th: Gentle recovery run - 4.2 miles @ 8.50 pace.

Tuesday 26th: Little run down to the park and back - just under 7 miles at 8 min/miles.
Legs felt tired afterwards - felt grand during it.

Spent a good 40 mins stretching & foam rolling afterwards - worked wonders. Some light core work - 5-10 mins.

Wednesday: Session. Alt Tempo 1T/2MP/1T/2MP

This was a change to the planned 3x2mile tempo that was in the 2nd Ed of JD - Its from the same phase of the taper in the 3rd Edition book.
Main reason for the change is that there are 2 workouts in the JD plan this week (both editions) and I'm not going to do both, I think a session too near the weekend would not be doing too much for me fitness wise.

So I went with the one that gave me the most contiguous running, rather than breaking the run up into intervals.

I ran to the PP and set off on my 'usual' 5m loop - doing 2 laps of the triangle on the North Road to gain the additional mile.

Took me a while to get into it, but the MP section felt fine and the 2nd tempo mile felt good - when I turned onto Chesterfield, there was a bit of a wind and a bit of a drag and I wussed out and stopped for 30 seconds - thats ok - didn't want to break myself and I knew that a 30 second stop wouldn't hurt proceedings. The final 2m at MP were fine when I got going (but was delighted to stop!).

1T: 5.58
2MP: 6.22/6.27 (Faster than planned - Down North Road)
1T: 6.04
2MP: 6.32 / 6.24

10.4 miles


Marathon Plan:

Regarding my marathon pace, I don't want to beholden to a pace (in order to get a sub 2.50) and then blow up with cramp.
I've been training for 6.29 marathon pace and will be targeting this - but will run the best race on the day.

World Record: 2.49.59 - I need all the Running Gods to be in my favour and have a constant tail wind
Gold Medal: 2.52-2.53
Silver Medal: 2.54.59 (a GFA Berlin Entry for 2020)
Bronze Medal: 2.58:00 (a 1 second PB)

My only strategy is not to go off too quick - maybe 6.45-6.50 but if it gets too crowded around the sub 3 train, then I'll have to reconsider that.

Still 10-11 days to go - Easy runs til Saturday.
I'll do 13-14m on Saturday and a light session on Monday (a 10k paced session - 2x1m or 3-4x1200).
I'm away with work Monday evening & Tuesday.
Wednesday onward - light 4-5m runs with strides and plenty of stretching.

That's the plan. -



PS.

I want no 'best of lucks' this week!!!!!

OOnegative

AuldManKing wrote: »

PS.

I want no 'best of lucks' this week!!!!!

Not going to happen from me anyway!!!

It clears out quickly enough A up front from my experience in 2016, get into your pen early enough and you’ll be fine. They have cubicles in the pens for no1 if you’re worried about that, get no2 done in the hotel. Coming back across the Erasmasburg is absolutely amazing, hair on the back of head stuff genuinely and something that may let you get carried away with the euphoria of it all.

The loop around the Kralingse Plas is bleak, save something for here, mental fortitude required. It’s a fantastic marathon, you’ll fly it.

AuldManKing

OOnegative wrote: »

Not going to happen from me anyway!!!

But your a great man for the 'Best of lucks & Well Dones' :pac:



Cheers for the other notes.

Applegirl26

"-run the best race on the day"

I love that line.

It's been an education following your training block. Thanks for sharing it.

RayCun

Compared to Dublin you don't need to get into the pens as early to get a decent spot. I'm not saying do a DublinRunner :pac: but you don't need to be half an hour early.

But the bag drop is much further from the start than in Dublin, like a mile walk away.

Also the bag drop was the one badly organised part of last year's race. Similar to Dublin, they had an area for 1-1000, 1001-2000 etc, but it only went up to 10,000 and the numbers went much higher. The last area had three times as many bags, completely unsorted. If it happens again this year and you have a high number, leave your bag in one of the smaller areas. eg if you are 12157 and the last area goes up to 10,000, leave your bag in the 2001-3000 space, it will be easier to find.

The first km of the course is a bit tight, over the bridge and around the first corner, but you should be in space by the time you get to the first water station.

Younganne

great party atmosphere for most of this race, don't forget to enjoy some of the party along the route...use it to refill the mental determination!!:D


PS take a moment to salute blockic as you round the bend for the last few hundred metres!!!:D

seen this and though of you after your strava comments https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/product/surviving-the-marathon-freak-out-e-book/,
but think you're fine now!!:)

TRR_the_turd

AuldManKing wrote: »

I want no 'best of lucks' this week!!!!!

Break a leg!

Murph_D

You're right A - there's no such thing as a lucky marathon. Need a bit of fortune to get all the uncontrollables on your side all the same - weather, sleep, etc. So I will just say, "May those things go well, so that good things may follow".

healy1835

Ray is right regards the pens and getting a decent spot. We rocked up alongside our pen with about 10mins to spare and were able to mooch around outside and then just hop the railing.

However, the long walk from the bag drop to the start caught us out a little, and while the pens themselves aren't too manic, the walk up to Pen C/D where you'll be I guess was jammers. Anyone could just hang around and we were dodging bikes, buggies and just a load of randomers and spectators. It was a little stressful if I recall, so maybe don't leave it as late as we did......

AuldManKing

Thursday: Easy miles + some strides at the end. I had noticed a bit of back niggleness during the week - more pronounced today.

5.5 miles

Friday: Was going to take a rest day - but too nice out - 4 miles @ 8.08 pace.

Saturday: Last long run. Ran down to the PP - done a lap of the park and ran home.

Some strides at the end.

12.7 miles @ 7.52

Wore a heat patch after this and took some nurofen.

Sunday: Took a rest day to help the back - getting better.


A work trip to Dresden is a good distraction early this coming week.

44 miles for the week.

My last 4 weeks have been 76/ 67 / 61/ 44 - Only last week felt like a taper.

281 miles for the month - 2nd highest mileage month in last 12 months. (286 was the highest) & 3rd highest month ever.

skyblue46

All the best for Sunday A. That's a great block you got done. I'm sure it will bring you the result you deserve. Run well.

Edit: just remembered the "No best of lucks" so I retract the above comment. :-)

RayCun

What did you say to DD...? "Go set me a nice target"

OOnegative

The Bestest of best of lucks Alan, run well!!