The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

Murph_D

That's tough A, obviously something amiss somewhere. Hope you get to the bottom of it. Deserved so much more.

Swashbuckler

Jesus that's pretty heartbreaking and I don't even know you!

Unthought Known

Ah man that was tough to read. I'm not even sure what to say. That race report should be shared to next year's novices to drive home just how unpredictable (and unforgiving) the marathon can be, no matter how good the preparation is.

adrian522

Sorry things didn't go your way on the day A. At least you know you have a great training block behind you. Not much else to say really, I'm sure you'll bounce back from this.

hot buttered scones

That sounds like a tough, tough day - been there alright. There's a lot of emotion, especially frustration, in that report. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something else afoot. When the body goes and the head follows it feels like the walls are closing in.
If I was to pull some positives from this -
1. As I said above the training went well, but the day didn't. It's too early to judge whether or not something went wrong with the training, but I would say it is far more likely that something went wrong with one run (the race) than something went wrong with many runs (the training). So you have that block of training under your your belt, even though you didn't get the result that training deserved I still think you can build on that and move forward.
2. You had a bad experience, but it's one you can draw on when things start getting tough in future races. Hopefully any bad patches you hit in races in the future will seem like nothing compared to this, and any pain will seem less in comparison to Sunday. It may also prove to be a motivator which leads to the performances you want.

Your a determined, dedicated runner and I have no doubt you'll be back better than ever. I'd have a lash off something shorter in a few weeks when your recovered. It worked wonders for me after Cork when I hit a 5k PB a few weeks after a disastrous marathon - renewed my confidence and left me exhilarated and chomping at that bit for more.

annapr

Horrible, painful experience for you... not much consolation but fair play to you for gritting it out and finishing the race.

AuldManKing

AuldManKing wrote: »

I make my way back around to the office on Mount Street and bump into my family – they’re not meant to be there, I cant talk to them without crying, so I don’t.
In the office, there's a buzz of activity from clubmates who ran 2:51 & 3:05 with their families – all happy.
I sit on my own and shed a few tears – still unable to talk about what happened. 15 weeks, fantastic prep. All the sacrifice.

It wasn’t meant to be like this.

Yeah - a tad dramatic, but if I was videoing this, I'd do a mic drop.

I was going to brush over the last 10-12 miles, but I wanted to capture it here for future reference. I wasn't going to put in the last piece, but it was an important part of the journey, so I wanted to include it...........and it reads well :cool:

AuldManKing

Analysis:

In my mind I think I've enough for about 40 of Boards pages of analysis for what happened on this race.

Here's a synopsis.

What it wasn't:

* The training:
Similar to San Seb - the paces were faster, the workouts the same, the effort the same as previous years - the beauty of boards is that you can compare to a large degree.

* The Nutrition:
I nailed this. The weeks before.........all the way through the plan. The last few days were near perfect from a nutrition perspective. Supplements were fine - plenty of Zero tabs and salt tabs.
I took a gel before the race and 2 salt tabs - along with my gels at 5-10-15m - I dont think this was a factor.



What I done different:

* Baths!
2x Epsom salts baths during race week - no idea what impact if any this had - but it was something different.

* Massage
I had a sports massage on the Monday before the race. I really don't think that this had an impact, but it was my 1st massage since about March 2016. My normal therapist - she went easy enough on me and declared me in great shape.
I don't know if the massage would have an impact on the natural tension in my legs??

* Taper
I had a different taper to the previous marathon - I brought my workouts fwd 1 week (as was designed in the plan) - I had read it wrong last year.

* 3/4 Marathon
Maybe I ran the 3/4 Marathon too fast. Its a constant niggle at me since Sunday. But before San Seb - But I ran a fast 22m at DCM prior to San Seb, so not sure of that impact.

* Fast start:
Started a good 5-10 secs per mile faster than I planned originally. Part of me is regretting it, but part of me is happy as my Vdot was for a faster time anyway. Its a difficult one.

* Race week distractions
A lot of standing around at a GAA blitz on Sat wasn't healthy.
Buying a new car on the Friday was mental torture for the 2 weeks previous.

What I think it was:

(1) Bad Taper - Longwood 3/4 mixed with a session that week may have caused some damage. Doing a session of HMP miles the following week didn't help.

(2) Physical and mental wear and tear on race week - buying a car and going to a 5 hr GAA Blitz isn't great especially considering point 1 above.

(3) Generally overtraining: 8x20m runs (same as San Seb training) but with a larger base may be considered over training. Maybe Longwood 3/4 was my peak condition race.


The other consideration is that maybe it was just bad luck.............but I don't believe in that.

I'll be back - not too sure when I'll do a marathon, but I'll PB over a lot of races in 2017.

hot buttered scones

AuldManKing wrote: »

Yeah - a tad dramatic, but if I was videoing this, I'd do a mic drop.

I was going to brush over the last 10-12 miles, but I wanted to capture it here for future reference. I wasn't going to put in the last piece, but it was an important part of the journey, so I wanted to include it...........and it reads well :cool:

It's a bit of a cliffhanger though. When's the next chapter due out?

AuldManKing

hot buttered scones wrote: »

It's a bit of a cliffhanger though. When's the next chapter due out?

you're not waiting long

Murph_D

Phew. I was afraid you were going to list “Constant bumping into Murph in final weeks” as one of the potential causes.

I think of everything you’ve listed there, the ¾ is possibly the most likely, if indeed it was too fast. How did that compare pace-wise with the 22 at DCM last year?

I know you’re reluctant to blame the GAA for anything, but if it was really five hours on your feet, maybe a bit chilly too, especially combined with the above (and all the other factors), it was a hectic enough few weeks prior. Maybe that’s the most likely reason - the combination of events, none of which on their own would be any reason for concern.

I’d have been shedding a few tears too. I think it’s great that you finished it out all the same. Seemed to be a lot of DNFs on the day, and it took a lot for a runner of your calibre to deathwalk through that last three miles especially.

Respect!

chickey2

It sounds like it was a combination of things that all came at the wrong time!
I wouldn't underestimate the new car. A friend of mine suddenly got a bad shoulder so went to the physio who immediately asked did she recently get a new car. The physio said she often has people in with sore shoulders, feet and calves due to driving in a different position than they were used to.
Anyway, it's good to analyse these things. Your training will stand to you and I'm sure you'll be able to move on from this.

adrian522

Personally I think sometimes bad races just happen without much in the way of explanation. I don't think there were any signs above that a bad race was on the cards, just one of those things. If that had been a session rather than a goal race you'd just write it off as one of those days and move on.

It's a bit more difficult when it is a target race but sometimes these things come out of nowhere.

I'm all for trying to learn lessons but I can't see anything you've posted above that would need to change for a future cycle.

Greg McMillan wrote:

Bad workouts and races - we all have them and we always will. Accept that the body has an ebb and flow that we don't quite understand. Some days you just feel 'off.' As hard as it is to accept a bad workout or race when there are valid reasons, it's doubly challenging when there appears to be no reason at all. I used to worry about this, but now I just shrug it off as the quirkiness of the body and mind. Don't invest in it or overthink it. Move on.

dublin runner

As mentioned above, running can be unfair at times. We have all been there - bad results after good training. It's hard to rationalise but I always think races like yours makes one stronger in long run. It's all about bouncing back!

I think there is a danger with bad performances to over-analysis but with that said, one thing really stood out for me: did you really take 3 days off in the week lead up? If so, that's a bit of a red flag alert for me.

RayCun

I blame the GAA.
What were we talking about again?

RayCun

But I agree on the three days off. Well, three days off running, with a bunch of other stuff instead.

Younganne

Race report is difficult reading as all your ducks appeared to be in a row, but you will probably never know what was the reason for the cramps.

Might be no harm getting the bloods checked as you could be deficient/or have too much of some vital nutrient.

Have to say fair play for continuing, many would have stepped off the course.

EDIT: IMO I still think the GAA Blitz had an impact that you don't realise. Last year I was at daughters football final the day before DCM and the last 4 miles of DCM, my legs cramped even though i had been doing the magnesium & calcium to counteract cramping..... and straight away the standing for about 2 hours was what i blamed!!

AuldManKing

Right - lets close the above topic - we move on.

After a great night on Sunday night with my family and a similar great night on Monday............I went to Killarney for more great nights. I didn't bring the runners which was a pain as Felim was going to be there on Friday and was looking for a running date.

I went out on Friday for a few miles in the PP - 5m at 8:11 pace was enough.

Saturday was a busy day with college, so didn't get to run.

Sunday: After another GAA event with my older girl (Promoted to the Adult A team (as well as playing Minor & the B's)........ jaysus - the amount of taxi work I do for my kids GAA............ it even cost me a marathon PB .....) - anyway - getting home at 4ish, I went out with the intention of doing a few miles listening to the Chelsea v ManU game.

After an opening mile at 7:17 with the legs feeling fantastic - I just went with it - along the trails by the North road, hitting 6:55's/7's in sections and feeling like an easy run.

I ease up at Farmleigh, after 8 quickish miles and take it handy for the 2 miles home.

10m @ 7:21


At DCM I ran 13 miles at my planned MP, 3m at MP + 20secs and 10m at easy/recovery/funny walk pace.
I'm just counting that as a session - I done similar last year without the hardship. I'm not going to go Balls out in the next week either.....

I'm looking at a couple of goals for the months ahead - the 2 that I'm considering, in order, are;

(1) After Jingle Bells - focus on Half Mara training plan for Bohermeen - I've never trained for a HM, so this would be good, given my recent training. (also the Trim 10m in there) - Then go into a 10k specific training plan for the summer races.

(2) Start into a training plan for a Spring Marathon - a different plan with a different emphasis.

The context here is that from now, my employment status is effectively garden leave - still i the office with a few things to do, but a LOT of flexibility to do other stuff. Then from Jan 31st I'll be unemployed - and all going well - I'll stay unemployed for a couple of months - so time will be on my side.

moon madness

No Epsom Salt baths this week so!
Great report on the race. You love running, that's the main thing😊

hot buttered scones

Best of luck. I'll have a similar focus myself - have a rattle off a 5k in December, half training for the first half of next year, although I'm foregoing a marathon and fully focusing on the half, with an autumn marathon being the main focus for the year (did you mean autumn??). Must have a look at Trim - I had Dungarvan pencilled in, but I missed the registration.
I was unsure what to do after the half, but 10k training sounds good to me until July anyway. I'll be following with interest.

Swashbuckler

Question for HBS and AMK. What do you guys see as the main differences between 10k and half training? More tempo runs for half and more vo2 max for 10k? The reason i ask is i have the pfitzinger faster road racing book and the 10k and half plans are pretty similar apart from where the tempos are positioned in the plan. In other words is it possible to train for 10k and half within the same plan?

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Question for HBS and AMK. What do you guys see as the main differences between 10k and half training? More tempo runs for half and more vo2 max for 10k? The reason i ask is i have the pfitzinger faster road racing book and the 10k and half plans are pretty similar apart from where the tempos are positioned in the plan. In other words is it possible to train for 10k and half within the same plan?

I'm possibly going to follow the Pfitz HM plan from that book.

The main difference from the HM plan and the 10k plan is that the long runs are longer and the tempo intervals are also longer. Theres a couple of miles added on to the various midweek runs too.

The differences may seem slight - but believe me - when a 10k plan calls for a 10min or 12 min Tempo interval but a HM plan calls for a 20min (as high as 24min)interval, you do feel that difference.

The HM is a different beast to the 10k - in Jack Daniels book (2nd Edition) - he even recommends using the Marathon plan for HM training.

hot buttered scones

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Question for HBS and AMK. What do you guys see as the main differences between 10k and half training? More tempo runs for half and more vo2 max for 10k? The reason i ask is i have the pfitzinger faster road racing book and the 10k and half plans are pretty similar apart from where the tempos are positioned in the plan. In other words is it possible to train for 10k and half within the same plan?

Haven't a notion. The last plan in the P+L book is a multiple distances plan, which would include elements from all the other plans. That being said I followed the 2015 graduates plan on here (you'll probably find the thread in the training logs) which was geared towards 10k, but I ran a pretty decent 25k off it with slightly longer long runs. I'm sure someone else will have a better answer for you.

adrian522

I followed both the 10K and HM plans from Fitz this year. I didn't follow them to the letter but found them good. The tempo goes up to 40mins in the HM plan.

I did mix and match between the mid mileage and high mileage plans, the sessions are slightly different, my mileage landed mid way between the two.

I looked at the JD marathon plan. Week 1 had a session with 2 x 6miles at MP. I think I'll be giving that plan a miss.

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

The main difference from the HM plan and the 10k plan is that the long runs are longer and the tempo intervals are also longer. Theres a couple of miles added on to the various midweek runs too.

AuldManKing wrote:

The differences may seem slight - but believe me - when a 10k plan calls for a 10min or 12 min Tempo interval but a HM plan calls for a 20min (as high as 24min)interval, you do feel that difference.

I guess this is where I get confused. I know the plan is the plan and you shouldn't mess with these things too much but is there a dowside to doing longer runs, longer tempo etc as part of a 10k plan? Surely it can only help 10k racing no?

Swashbuckler

adrian522 wrote:

I followed both the 10K and HM plans from Fitz this year. I didn't follow them to the letter but found them good. The tempo goes up to 40mins in the HM plan.

adrian522 wrote:

I did mix and match between the mid mileage and high mileage plans, the sessions are slightly different, my mileage landed mid way between the two.

How did you find them? My tentative plan for fist half 2018 is target 10k end of March and half in early may so hoping to "combine" the plans. Bad idea you reckon?

adrian522

Not a bad idea at all, follow the 10K plan to end March, then take 1 week recovery, then jump in to the half plan. As you say the plans are similar. Referencing the title of this log, which race is "The main thing"? If its the half then maybe focus more on that plan, but really the plans for either distance should help you for both distances.

Swashbuckler

adrian522 wrote:

Not a bad idea at all, follow the 10K plan to end March, then take 1 week recovery, then jump in to the half plan. As you say the plans are similar. Referencing the title of this log, which race is "The main thing"? If its the half then maybe focus more on that plan, but really the plans for either distance should help you for both distances.

I hate to say it but I wanted both races to be the main thing. Ha. If I'm honest the 10k is the main one. The May half is a marker so I know where I'm at, going into what will hopefully be my first marathon block starting in late June.

Sorry for hijacking your log AMK!

AuldManKing

adrian522 wrote: »

I looked at the JD marathon plan. Week 1 had a session with 2 x 6miles at MP. I think I'll be giving that plan a miss.

The 3rd edition has a specific HM Plan - I'm considering this one too.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

How did you find them? My tentative plan for fist half 2018 is target 10k end of March and half in early may so hoping to "combine" the plans. Bad idea you reckon?

adrian522 wrote: »

Not a bad idea at all, follow the 10K plan to end March, then take 1 week recovery, then jump in to the half plan. As you say the plans are similar. Referencing the title of this log, which race is "The main thing"? If its the half then maybe focus more on that plan, but really the plans for either distance should help you for both distances.

If theres only a few weeks in between the 10k & HM then I'd do the HM Plan rather than a 10k plan - you'll also get great benefit for the 10k coming out of the HM Plan. But I wouldn't mix & match.
If your intention is to do the half, then you need to ensure you have the mileage and the endurance to do it at your pace. The 10k will be coming at a good time in the HM plan.

The P&L plan is a 12 week plan, so be careful how you approach the preceding weeks. Building speed is a good option before going into a plan like yours - as an example, phase 2 of JD 10k plan is a good 6 week speed builder.

Swashbuckler

How it looks at the moment is first 4 weeks of mostly General Aerobic, LT and Hills with strides added in at times and then the Vo2 max and speed sessions start adding in after week four building towards a 12 week plan. Peak mileage I have isn't far off 56 miles. The 12 weeks coincides exactly with the 10k. Then was thinking of doing mostly longer LT and endurance stuff after a week of recovery for three weeks and then taper to the half.