The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

hot buttered scones

Jaysus, sometimes reading these logs is like seeing things in your near future that are best left unseen. :eek:

Savage session there. glad you enjoyed your brief Tour de Cork as well.

Swashbuckler

hot buttered scones wrote:

Jaysus, sometimes reading these logs is like seeing things in your near future that are best left unseen.

I thought exactly the same and I know it's coming eventually.

Safiri

AuldManKing wrote: »

Make it constructive though!!

I said it the other thread but deleted it as I didn't want to interfere with another person's log.

I think you would benefit from more hills in your training. When I read that someone has hamstring cramps 13 miles into a lumpy marathon; my immediate thought is that the person was not conditioned to run that pace on hills as they will batter unprepared and/or weak hamstrings. Reading back through your log; that weakness and avoidance on hills becomes more apparent(struggles on Waterworks etc.) and even shows up in your last week by going down furze for the 2k reps and up for 1k recovery and it's a trend I picked up throughout your training for the marathon and beyond. Hills suck when you do them especially for speed orientated person like you but that is why they will benefit you(what is hard for you is often what you need to focus on).

My advice would be to incorporate more hills into your long runs and workouts. Remember, splits look good on paper but hills make for great results.

AuldManKing

Safiri wrote: »

I said it the other thread but deleted it as I didn't want to interfere with another person's log.

I think you would benefit from more hills in your training. When I read that someone has hamstring cramps 13 miles into a lumpy marathon; my immediate thought is that the person was not conditioned to run that pace on hills as they will batter unprepared and/or weak hamstrings. Reading back through your log; that weakness and avoidance on hills becomes more apparent(struggles on Waterworks etc.) and even shows up in your last week by going down furze for the 2k reps and up for 1k recovery and it's a trend I picked up throughout your training for the marathon and beyond. Hills suck when you do them especially for speed orientated person like you but that is why they will benefit you(what is hard for you is often what you need to focus on).

My advice would be to incorporate more hills into your long runs and workouts. Remember, splits look good on paper but hills make for great results.

That's a great observation with more than a degree of truth in it.
There is a sense of making the sessions more manageable. It's something I'll be more mindful off in choosing my route.

Thanks for taking the time to read through the log.

Swashbuckler

Can I add a question/comment. Given AMK has sessions prescribed at a target effort level then is he not right to keep to that effort level be it on flat or uphill or downhill?
By adding hills to his sessions does that not change the target/dynamic of the session or am I way off? If there is a weakness on hills then you would think his coach would target that specifically in some phase of training as opposed to him messing around with what his current sessions are targeting?

Safiri

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Can I add a question/comment. Given AMK has sessions prescribed at a target effort level then is he not right to keep to that effort level be it on flat or uphill or downhill?
By adding hills to his sessions does that not change the target/dynamic of the session or am I way off? If there is a weakness on hills then you would think his coach would target that specifically in some phase of training as opposed to him messing around with what his current sessions are targeting?

If it's targeted at effort; it should be no big deal to incorporate hills every so often as you are just training different the muscle groups involved by changing hills. Pace runs would be different.

As for his coach targeting it; I don't know and would be only making assumptions. I'm only speaking from my perspective of what I seen throughout the log and what makes sense in my mind. Another person may see it from a different perspective which is both the beauty and beast of feedback. I'm not undermining his coach; just giving very minor feedback on route selection which I believe could address a weakness causing the early cramping he had in his last marathon. I'll bow out now.

Testosterscone

Its a good observation Safiri. When reading the marathon issues hamstring conditioning was ine thing that did stand out. Hills are one definitely element but stride was another factor.

Rather than address this in the main sessions felt it was probably best to tackle

a) the confidence which comes with these bigger sessions, this is something which was key wanted A fully believing in himself come race day that he is in shape to nail his target this was particularly important after Dublin

b) The sustained efforts. A has said these are tough and something he is not used to wanted him fatiguing and continuing to push through, throwing hills on top of that could have sent the likes of this session over the edge. As he gets more used to these course may come into play in later training cycles but his target half is a relatively flat route.

His training since the winter has incorporated some cross country and short high volume hill reps (as well as tempo , hill combo reps) as welk as strides and maximal hill sprints weekly so we have not been neglecting it but using it as a support training to act as a developmental stage for later marathon specific work

A has only changed coaching approach post DCM so we are changing things slowly as i am not a huge fan of major overhauls in all aspects of training at once, tends to detract focus from doing these aspects correctly


Hopefully that explains the method behind the madness somewhat (for A if nothing else given the proximity to the half)

Edit:apologies if this looks like a 5 year old got at a keyboard on a replacement phone which im not used to at all haha

AuldManKing

In fairness, I don't think the observations made by Safri were directed to the make up of the session or a critique of training plan.

I read it as simply a matter of route choice.
Last year while doing Daniels, I'd regularly do 6x1m on the GIR route, which is a beast of a route. This route wasn't directed as such, just a matter of choice.

I have been choosing easier routes this year and I think Safri is just saying that adding lumpier routes will help.
Not hill sessions per say, just better route choice.
Go up Chesterfield, not down.
Go up the Furze, not down
Etc

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I have been choosing easier routes this year and I think Safri is just saying that adding lumpier routes will help. Not hill sessions per say, just better route choice. Go up Chesterfield, not down. Go up the Furze, not down Etc

Gotcha. I think that's where I got confused.

Safiri wrote:

I'm not undermining his coach; just giving very minor feedback on route selection which I believe could address a weakness causing the early cramping he had in his last marathon. I'll bow out now.

Genuinely wasn't implying you were undermining his coach. It was more a question on my part. I think I probably took your mention of hills too specifically to sessions.
Absolutely do not bow out! What's the point in having these logs if they don't stimulate some thought or discussion.

Testosterscone

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Absolutely do not bow out! What's the point in having these logs if they don't stimulate some thought or discussion.

+1

Discussion question and different approaches are what this place are about need to challenge norms

dublin runner

It's funny, I asked the same question this week regarding the choice of route, hilly vs. flat. Take my last big long steady run; a challenging enough route, using the Simon 5 predominately. I firmly believe that hill sessions serve one purpose but chosing to run sessions on rolling hills is the key. Variety is the spice of life - mix it up; flat, hilly, mountain etc.

People overthink training way too much in general. Basically, always mix it up regarding terrain, hills etc. Sometimes chase splits, sometimes chase effort. It's not rocket science! The more I read about running, diet and training to more I rebel. Simply - Keep it Simple!

It's obviously way too simplistic to put cramping down to one issue but, if I recall correctly, taking 3 days off before a marathon is asking for trouble. I would say it's almost assured. If you read about muscle tensioning you will get my line of thinking.

If we run everyday or 6 days a week, taper should be no different.

Safiri

dublin runner wrote: »

It's obviously way too simplistic to put cramping down to one issue but, if I recall correctly, taking 3 days off before a marathon is asking for trouble. I would say it's almost assured. If you read about muscle tensioning you will get my line of thinking.

Often I think the case is down simply to poor muscular conditioning and fatigue though and many people skip over that looking towards dioralyte and sodium levels and such. Not having enough salts would be a rare occurrence in an Irish diet; Very heavy sweaters maybe. Not what you are saying but it's something I see brought up a lot.

In this case; I think there is a trend developing as he mentioned in his post-race analysis that he also suffered early cramps in his first marathon which was Dublin as well(very understandle for a first time marathon runner to get cramps even if they never happen again) but it hasn't been as much of an issue on other flat marathons to the same extent and the early part specific to racing Dublin piques my curiousity on a course which is tough in the first half with hills which put a unique strain on the hamstrings compared to flat running.

3 days would be a stretch(pardon the pun) to lose a large range of motion I would think, might feel tight on the morning but a gentle warmup with a few easy strides should blow it off. Truth be told; it's probably a combination of both tight and weak muscles which contributed in poor uphill form as Testosterone said.

Agree completely with you on variation and simplicity.

AuldManKing

So 3 weeks unemployed as of the 21st Feb - an amazing 3 weeks.

I'm so busy doing stuff that I done while I was working that I dont know how I'd now fit it into a life with a job!! (if that makes sense).
I had an image of reading newspapers sipping coffee, while spending my redundancy package on anything and everything. NOPE on all accounts.

I think I'd play a good scrooge. A very busy scrooge at that.

Well now - back to training.

Monday: a nice 5m meander, mostly on grass (2/3's) around to the Porterstown pitches. - 8:55 pace - legs quite tired.

Tuesday: AM - 3 miles @8.36 pace - legs getting there.

PM: A very interesting morning on my time off - changing routines, different coffees (with Eddie Hobbs) and trips to the Library.
I went on my evening run, with the thoughts of 'elevation' in my head - no, not the U2 song, bad and all as that is, but my route choice of late.
I included the Furry Glen, up the S Bends and the Khyber in my run today - finishing off with 5x30s strides. Legs in a good place.

7.2m @ 7.56/mile

10.2 for the day.

Wednesday: Another busy day, which seen me leave the house before 9 to meet with a couple of agencies in town as well as the Outplacement service that I have use of. All went well. Off to Avoca in Dunboyne to meet some other people before returning to the house at 5pm.
A good unpaid days work done.

Session: 10x1km (90s)

I kinda knew that this would be manageable as the phycological aspect was broken by doing 7x2km the previous Sunday. Although the recovery was shorter, the reps were short too.

I wanted to choose a fair route for this, given the above conversation - I know myself that I've been making these sessions easier and if it wasn't for the above conversation, this session would be 'made easier' by route choice.

I done a 2m warm up and setted off - the route started at the Furze/OS intersection, went up Chesterfield, down the North Road, Intersected both at the Old Lamp Road, Down Chesterfield, turning back up the North Road for the 6-9th rep and doing the last rep down the Furze, finishing up where I started. A nice fair up & down route.

The reps were very similar - averaging 3:41 (5:56/mile) with an aim of 6 min/miles - so right in the ball park.
The range was 3:39 (last rep) to 3:45 (5th rep) - but mostly in between.

Happy with the workout, but absolutely wrecked that night.

Thursday: 7.14@ 8.21. - Mostly on Grass.

Up to Porterstown, a few loops on grass up there and back home - some watch issues but I knew it would be just over 7 miles. Tired legs at the start, a bit better near the end.

Swashbuckler

So now that you've addressed the above conversation I want to address the choice of route for your sessions. In particular, I always run my Tuesday sessions on flat. What did T reckon in terms of introducing hilly sections? It looks like your paces were as prescribed so presumably the effort levels must have been well above the prescribed pace/effort level in parts?

Murph_D

Stay away from that Eddie Hobbs fella or you’ll be penniless in no time, mulling over your decaying Detroit property portfolio.

Nice work otherwise.

AuldManKing

Swashbuckler wrote: »

So now that you've addressed the above conversation I want to address the choice of route for your sessions. In particular, I always run my Tuesday sessions on flat. What did T reckon in terms of introducing hilly sections? It looks like your paces were as prescribed so presumably the effort levels must have been well above the prescribed pace/effort level in parts?

The session was run on the flat - in the PP there is a hillier part and a flat part. Chesterfield Ave and The North Road are flat - just drags on both.
I was doing the majority of sessions down the drag - this time I made it fairer and went up & down the drag. Its a fair route for any session.

Murph_D wrote: »

Stay away from that Eddie Hobbs fella or you’ll be penniless in no time, mulling over your decaying Detroit property portfolio.

Nice work otherwise.

Well he was sitting across from me working on a fancy tablet device yokie bob while having an expresso. Our eyes may have met once.
I think his expresso was warm - but the heat in expressos can go up as well as down, always ask the advice of your Barista, charges may apply.

adrian522

Espresso. Philistine.

AuldManKing

adrian522 wrote: »

Espresso. Philistine.

Hobbs, not me.
I'm a simple guy.
A filter guy where they have it.


Otherwise it's a skinichino mocha latte half in half with lactose free milk.

AuldManKing

Friday: A nice lap of the park in the winter sunshine. Tired on the 1st mile (8:40) but sorted myself out.
I do this lap a lot and I'd like to point out to SwashBuckler that its a lumpy lap. So there.

7.16m @ 8.02 pace

Saturday: from the house to the PP and back. Feeling quite good but keeping it easy for the Sunday session.

7m @ 8:11 pace

Sunday: A Luke Special.
3m WU / 3k / 2k / 2x1m / 3x1km / 4x600 / 3CD - pace starting at 6:15 and working down to 5:50's.

I was undecided where to do this, I wanted a change from the Park so went upto Hartstown Park in D15. Bit of a mistake as it was full of walkers (3-4 abreast) and dog walkers with long leads.
The park is quite exposed in places and the wind was very noticeable.

3m WU completed and onto the the session.
3km - 11.27 - 6:12 pace. - Probably should've done strides/stretches 1st as I felt this one. (5min Rec)
2km - 7:40 - 6:12 pace - got it done - wind was a curse - high on effort. (4 min Rec)

2x1m: 6:06 / 6:07 - Starting to find my groove during these. Holding back a bit at the start, but was starting to hurt by the last 400m or so. (3min rec)

3x1km: 3.41/3.41/3.41 5:55 pace - Loved these. Short enough that you can push on through. (2 min recoveries)

4x600: 2:11/2:12/2:11/2:12 ( 5.52-5.55 pace) Manageable, but 3/4 into the wind. High effort levels and my legs had that feeling that they were dead during the recovery section, but started working on Q

The 3m CD was very welcome!

17.19m (ave pace 7:21)

Close on 65 miles for the week, my highest week since the start of October '17.

I've been doing a lot of core work these last 2 weeks or so. Short stuff - possibly 10 mins in duration before bed, but in a good habit.

Also - worth noting for the log - due to work circumstances with a lot of 'finishing drinks' - Christmas - more 'finishing drinks' and then actually finishing work (finally) - my alcohol consumption has been at peak levels for a while.
Last week was the 1st time since December where I went 3-4 evenings in a row without alcohol! (Not that I drink a lot when I do drink) It was just the wrong sort of habit to be getting into. I want to be happily unemployed not merrily unemployed.

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

Friday: A nice lap of the park in the winter sunshine. Tired on the 1st mile (8:40) but sorted myself out. I do this lap a lot and I'd like to point out to SwashBuckler that its a lumpy lap. So there.

I absolutely believe you.

Love the monster session.

AuldManKing

Monday: 5 recovery - 9min/mile pace.

Tuesday: Two-Run Tuesday and I swapped the order of the runs as I had company on Tuesday AM with 2 female clubmates (#metoo) - great to run with company and the miles flew in.

7.7m @8.12 pace.

PM: 3.2 m around somewhere that I cant remember

Wednesday: Woke to a white wonderland, but walking the dog that morning, it seemed fine underfoot. - Unfortunately, I had a phone interview on Wed PM that I needed to prep for - so didn't get out. I probably could have ran after it, but wine got in the way.

Thursday: A trek to the shops, a long delay, but I came away victorious with the essentials. Bread, muffins and wine. Happy days.

Friday: Cabin fever was well and truly in. I seen a few people on Strava that had been out including DD - I dont think he is real, actually he is as I met him, but lets pretend he's not real, just some cyborg who keeps coach busy. And is the Claws bestie.

Anyway - inspired by all those, I searched for, found and donned the tights - with a pair of shorts over them (the horror - hopefully no one see's me), a few tops, a snood, a hat and a pair of skiing glasses. My girls were morto.

The glasses were a godsent as there were blizzard conditions as I set out down to the Zoo - into a head wind. Got a few strange looks alright!

It was hard work for the whole time down to the zoo. I turned around and could take off the glasses (I put them back on hearer the house so no one would recognise me) and the aim was to get back quicker than I got down. The tail wind helped, but its also all uphill.

I managed 2 miles steady paced, which seemed like 5k effort!! before getting to the estates again and seeing the effort fall off as the snow got heavier.

8.5m@8.34 pace.

Sat: Woke up with the tiredest legs ever on Sat! Jesus - If I knew what an XC session felt like, it say this would be it.
The roads were a bit better, but full of slushy stuff that made running a bit more difficult.
I stepped into a shin high puddle halfway through and I thought my toes were going to fall off during the run.

I made my way down to the park, turning at the zoo and back up through Castleknock.

Kept the pace fairly constant all the way due to the conditions. Was going to do 13 - but the foot was freezing and I like my toes.

10m @ 9.06/mile.

Sunday: Company again for this run with my clubmate and Run Hub Guru. We ran down through Castleknock on the roads, down Chesterfield and up the North Road. Luckily we went out early enough so the roads weren't too busy, kept the whole run on the roads. A decent pace all the way on fairly tired legs.

10.7m @7.49

45m for the week - a decent week considering the snow.


Monday: A horrible 5m run on a terrible route through slippy slushy Porterstown. Porterstown Park was a mess, but I was committed and went through it. The amount of dog $hits around in the slush was disgusting. I wont mention what happened to me, but I needed a long shower after it.
5m @8.20


Tuesday: I have 2 3 yr olds staying with me for a few days, so was up very late on Monday night. Knackered getting up.
As its Two-Run tuesday, I done a few miles around the estate and the runnable parts of Porterstown park.

3m@8.40 pace.

PM: Parked in the park and done a loop down chesterfield and back up the North Road, done 6x15s strides and legs felt great afterwards.

6m@7.53 (inc 6 strides @ mile pace)

Baby75

Great Week with all that snow! we only had a sprinkle in comparison

I will be good and ignore the horror of the blasted dog poo :eek:

Kellygirl

Well done. Great reading!

Noticed the dog poo here too when I went for my first run as the snow was melting. It was everywhere. :mad:

Itziger

Hi, hope you don't mind my hijacking the log for a question. I know you've been doing some heavy and impressive HM training and I wanted to ask a question. Either yourself or L can answer maybe. I've done some decent sessions for a Half on March 18th, not quite as tough as yours but I'm happy enough compared to other years. Last really big one was yesterday, 10 days out, comprising a W/U 3x17 mins @ 3.50 km and C/D. I'm wondering though if I should do a mini-session say Tuesday or Wed. next week. I'm thinking a few 400's or 600's to get a small bit of speed in. I know it won't make a massive difference to my fitness at this stage but I like the idea of doing a few reps at faster than goal pace before the race. Any suggestions appreciated.

skyblue46

Itziger wrote: »

Hi, hope you don't mind my hijacking the log for a question. I know you've been doing some heavy and impressive HM training and I wanted to ask a question. Either yourself or L can answer maybe. I've done some decent sessions for a Half on March 18th, not quite as tough as yours but I'm happy enough compared to other years. Last really big one was yesterday, 10 days out, comprising a W/U 3x17 mins @ 3.50 km and C/D. I'm wondering though if I should do a mini-session say Tuesday or Wed. next week. I'm thinking a few 400's or 600's to get a small bit of speed in. I know it won't make a massive difference to my fitness at this stage but I like the idea of doing a few reps at faster than goal pace before the race. Any suggestions appreciated.

Not wanting to either preempt the lads or hijack but I'm doing the grad HM plan which L put up and it has a hard Parkrun 8 days before race and a short session 4 days out. Based on this I'd say the idea of faster reps is a good idea...but maybe it's different for different standards.

Swashbuckler

Based in my experiences with L I'd almost guarantee some sort of session the week of the race will be prescribed!

AuldManKing

Heres the Answer Itziger!

Wednesday: Mini Session: 2m Race Pace@6:10 + 4x2mins@5.50 (90s rec)

I done a 2m warmup Which brought me to the Castleknock Gate, from here, the route for the 2m included the OS & Furze Road, ending at the Ambassadors Residence.
This was the 1st time running fast in more than a week - and it showed as the 1st mile was up & down and felt difficult. In hindsight, I should have done strides in advance.
The 2nd mile, the body was getting used to it and the pace crept up a bit.
Really enjoyed this!

Took a 5min recovery jog and went into the 2 min reps on the Furze Road.
I love these sort of reps and it showed as they got progressively faster - 5:50 / 5:42 / 5:40 / 5:35 - not intentional to do these beyond the 5:50 guideline, just ran hard'ish.

1m cool down.

7.5m

Friday:
Left the house at 9:30am and didn't get back til 9:pm - Apart from looking for gainful employment, a good bit of the day spent assembling Ikea furniture at a family friends house (the 2x3 yr olds ).
Got a great workout doing this and then spent 2 hours in the rain marking GAA Pitches - a fruitless excercise, but still had to do it.

Didn't run today - but didn't mind it.

Sat: (Posting in advance) - a couple of miles planned with 4x15s strides.

The aim for Bohermeen is to PB - My PB is 1:24:21 from 2016. My aim is to run at 6:10's-6:15s and creep under 1:22.
No Sandbagging here. My 10m time was 6:10's - so going to try to hold this for an additional 3+ miles.

Younganne

Best of luck tomorrow A. Training is there, so go out and get it!!!

Itziger

Good luck, you certainly do have the training done!!

Itziger

Ah, Jaysus, you'll surely PB! Don't know what the course is like but I'd expect a sub 1.22 from most of the sessions.