The main thing is keeping the main thing, the main thing

Testosterscone

g00gyg00 wrote: »

Lack of hills in training has been an issue. correctly addressed by another new

Rather than this being a tit for tat may be able to salvage decent training talk.

The hill thing is something that has been raised by another poster in relation to cramps. This could well be an issue but do you believe that was the issue here? Also why would this have played a role yesterday vs a similar enough course profile in Trim just over a month ago?

I wouldn't say never profits. His fastest ever time in Raheny over 5 mile, a min PB in Trim and a PB here while not the PB he wanted it would would hardly be called a disaster few months. Is there more to be tapped into? No doubt, no one is denying that, least of all A.

(my comments possible come through as defensive give I coach A but they are not meant to be always good to get others insight for the sake of discussion talk and weigh up the thought's with my own approach for the athlete)

Duanington

Why or how could the hill thing be an issue though? I read the previous comments on this with interest, given that A trains a lot in the Phoenix Park, a place not short on hills.

This is a genuine question to be clear, I'm always wary of training too much on the flat but I don't think you can avoid hills\drags with that particular location.


A little more context on how A "quit" both races would be interesting too, I can't see how one could draw that conclusion really - given that he started to struggle so early on at a pace that wouldn't normally cause that kind of discomfort ( and not just judging on previous sessions, judging on very recent race times)

g00gyg00

Duanington wrote: »

Why or how could the hill thing be an issue though? I read the previous comments on this with interest, given that A trains a lot in the Phoenix Park, a place not short on hills.

This is a genuine question to be clear, I'm always wary of training too much on the flat but I don't think you can avoid hills\drags with that particular location.


A little more context on how A "quit" both races would be interesting too, I can't see how one could draw that conclusion really - given that he started to struggle so early on at a pace that wouldn't normally cause that kind of discomfort ( and not just judging on previous sessions, judging on very recent race times)

It's more the picking a favourable area to run your splits . Discussion forums and Strava are full of athletes who cannot replicate that in races. Why? Because the fast miles are downhill wind-assisted. We are singing to the masses waiting for Facebook style likes on social media running platforms.

AMK couldn't tell you what pace he is running without his watch. Learn to run the way we did years ago off feel. Stop trying to be a Strava super hero.

I am a 72 min half marathon runner and have never posted a training run to social media in my life.

Itziger

Hmmmmm, I'm torn on this one. I don't think it's the hills question but I do think there's something amiss and I actually kinda agree that Boards 'friends' (same can be said for Strava and FaceB obviously) can be part of the problem. I've seen this before on Boards. It's weird and hard to explain without sounding begrudging, but popular fellas like A seem to attract a band of followers who big them up and for whatever reason do more damage than good to the poster.
I wonder about a couple of the monster training sessions, if I'm being honest. Then there's the cooldown. I wasn't joking on Strava when I said it was too fast. If I run a pb I can't do a 5 min/km as a cool down. Just physically impossible. So, something's up somewhere. You're young and I have little doubt that you'll improve in the future if you stick at it but I think only you can answer some of the questions. Filter out the 'advice' (including this) and push on.

Safiri

Duanington wrote: »

Why or how could the hill thing be an issue though? I read the previous comments on this with interest, given that A trains a lot in the Phoenix Park, a place not short on hills.

This is a genuine question to be clear, I'm always wary of training too much on the flat but I don't think you can avoid hills\drags with that particular location.


A little more context on how A "quit" both races would be interesting too, I can't see how one could draw that conclusion really - given that he started to struggle so early on at a pace that wouldn't normally cause that kind of discomfort ( and not just judging on previous sessions, judging on very recent race times)

I'll chip in here seeing as I started this. There is hills in the Phoenix park but from what I seen, I didn't think AMK was taking advantage of them particularly in sessions and it also seemed like a weakness in his running from other posts(Things like struggling with hills in training and races). You can have hills but if you are running down them or running the on section of a workout on the flat sections; you are avoiding them and the adaptions they bring). One of those adaption to running uphill is conditioning your hamstrings(you use them more on hills than the flat). Downhills condition your quads more due to loading and the flat middles in between. Avoiding hills also creates imbalances where your quads will be more dominant than your hammy's further weakening your ability to run hills effectively in races. When it actually comes to running hills in races and you haven't prepared for them, the hamstrings will be weak and prone to fatigue as they can't handle the stress of running uphill.

You are only as strong as your weakest link and a course like Dublin in the first half can be punishing if your not familar with hills. AMK would be a guy whose strength is his speed so long grinding hills can punish those type of runners as well. Those were the jigsaw pieces I put together to get that observation.

Testosterscone

g00gyg00 wrote: »

It's more the picking a favourable area to run your splits . Discussion forums and Strava are full of athletes who cannot replicate that in races. Why? Because the fast miles are downhill wind-assisted. We are singing to the masses waiting for Facebook style likes on social media running platforms.

AMK couldn't tell you what pace he is running without his watch. Learn to run the way we did years ago off feel. Stop trying to be a Strava super hero.

I am a 72 min half marathon runner and have never posted a training run to social media in my life.

While I get the point you are making regarding fudging splits (there are plenty of people claiming times which are well and truly gravity assisted) it doesn't quite stack up in this case given that he ran the pace he had been training at for a 10 mile race. If the training was being artificially padded this would have been more apparent in both races.

I agree with you running by effort is a key skill,one that everyone should strive for but this takes time because unfortunately society has taken a step back with the rise of running tech. In the mean time sometimes regulating effort can be done with fairly flat courses in the earlier stages of this development for feel. I don't think the run by feel thing though is something which is individual in this case, it is a wide spread issue in running in general in this country

RayCun

What is your prerace routine? I'm reading the latest Magness at the moment, talking about priming. I don't think its a physical thing, was too early in the race (unless you come down with something today!)

dublin runner

Training discussions - great to see!

I think we are in big danger of over analysing. So, to take a step back I will use the topic of racing, not training. Racing is a pure skill, completely different in so many ways; from external factors to factors we can control. If we use training as a tool to become faster in races, over fitness or weight loss demands, I can make one thing certain, well three! I can guarantee you that we all will have: good, average or poor performances. In reality the bad will probably outweigh the good, meaning that securing that elusive PB becomes that bit sweeter each time. We live and hopefully learn. The most important thing is not to dwell on one result too much, be it a big PB or a DNF. That in itself is a skill.

We need to think macro, not micro. The overall trend line is the most important factor, not one race or one session. I see a good trend line when I look at Alan. He wasn't happy with yesterday, I saw that in person. That's great to see! It means he will bounce back, having learned a lot more. After all, we learn more in defeat than triumph!

Onwards and upwards!

Duanington

g00gyg00 wrote: »

It's more the picking a favourable area to run your splits . Discussion forums and Strava are full of athletes who cannot replicate that in races. Why? Because the fast miles are downhill wind-assisted. We are singing to the masses waiting for Facebook style likes on social media running platforms.

AMK couldn't tell you what pace he is running without his watch. Learn to run the way we did years ago off feel. Stop trying to be a Strava super hero.

I am a 72 min half marathon runner and have never posted a training run to social media in my life.

ok - so the point re hills, I get - Although I can't think offhand where exactly A runs those big sessions but I'm sure he'll be along when he finishes his wine.

But quitting in the race, I don't get - do you mean he mentally caved when the first few miles didn't feel as comfortable as they might have ? I suppose, again, only AMK can answer that one but it doesn't add up when you compare against recent performances.
A dip in mental strength is obviously something we all come across at some stage ( or at least I certainly have) but I'm not so sure it's the obvious one in this case

g00gyg00

You ran your race on the 18th of February you have more kudos and comments on that workout than yesterday.
You struggled from the start of that workout and got it done.
You got your reward of a great looking strava workout.
You suffered yesterday as I predicted after viewing that workout.

I have done similar workouts but run off feel , why trash yourself on a workout like that when your not feeling it?
Forget your Garmin , run xx minute efforts off feel and repeat 7 times .
You should be able judge what half marathon effort feels like at this stage if you cannot then bin your Garmin and buy a stopwatch.

hot buttered scones

AuldManKing wrote: »

Thanks for the posts folks - I'm here to disappoint

Bohermeen HM.


After the 1m mark, I wasn't feeling comfortable. I hit 1m in 6:08 - I recall the 10 miler and I was comfortable for the 1st 5 miles or so - I reckoned I'd make the 1st 7-8 miles today at 'comfortable' 6:10's. Not to be.

The next 3 miles were a battle to keep pace (6:12/6:09/6:14), I probably should have dialed the pace back earlier, but I was expecting to run into it - find a 2nd wind- after all I had run 6:10's in the 10m race a month ago. Right?

I decided to reduce pace and decide if I should DNF when we returned to the clubhouse for the 2nd lap as I was feeling very $hite. My main thoughts were of DCM and how I didn't want to spend half a race feeling sorry for myself.

The next 2 miles 6:19/6:21 and I was passed by a lot of groups. I hate getting passed in races - it doesn't happen often.
I then decided to not DNF and keep going - I didn't want a DNF on my scorecard, I needed a long run anyway.

Caveat: Opinions is this post are based solely on what I've read here and any advice given based on purely anecdotal evidence from a sample size of one (me).

You need to get that DCM monkey off your back and use that day to spur you on rather than hold you back - that's what I'm getting from reading between the lines here I'm afraid. Bad performances are sh1te and if we can't learn form them, improve and move on, and instead dwell on them then we are going to carry a certain amount of fear/anxiety of a similar performance into every race - which in turn can effect the performance in that very race.
As to how you improve the mental aspect of training/racing - I don't know. It's all well and good to say to someone "HTFU", and sure that can work at times, but it doesn't address any underlying issue. I'm sure there's tried and tested methods of mental training, but at the end of the day it's definitely very personal thing how you deal with this. Personally I prefer the "f uck it I'm not letting this happen again" approach and using that fear of failure to drive me on. That doesn't mean I still don't have bad performances, far from it - but they seem to mean less and put less of dent in my confidence than before.
Its like your lacking in self belief - thoughts of DNFing, thoughts of the bad time at DCM creeping in. Lots of talk here about "likes" and mutual backslapping - which is all well and good, I mean who doesn't like a bit of positive affirmation - I think is some good to be gained from that. None of it means anything though if you can't give yourself the same sort of positive affirmation when you need it most - nothing wrong with gritting your teeth and telling yourself "I can do this" mid race. It may seem a bit cringey to us, but who cares - if it works.
Yerrah, this will probably like an awful load of ball axe to people, and I've probably worded it really badly, so I hope you get my point.
Anyway, even after saying all that there is still the possibility that there is something physical which may have not manifested itself yet. By on your guard for a cold or something similar brewing - I hope not, but best to be on the safe side.

hot buttered scones

g00gyg00 wrote: »

I am a 72 min half marathon runner and have never posted a training run to social media in my life.

Fair play to you.

g00gyg00 wrote: »

You ran your race on the 18th of February you have more kudos and comments on that workout than yesterday.
You struggled from the start of that workout and got it done.
You got your reward of a great looking strava workout.
You suffered yesterday as I predicted after viewing that workout.

I don't get the sudden concern. If it irked you that much then why not say something almost a month ago when something could have done about it? I also don't get what your doing on Strava, if you're not a fan of social media platforms? This all feels a bit stalker-y to me. Its coming across like you have an issue with the guy. Constructive criticism is fair enough, but at least let the lad get a recovery run in before you go to town on him. Or is it his training that you have the issue with?
I'm not buying this. Something's off here.

g00gyg00

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Fair play to you.



I don't get the sudden concern. If it irked you that much then why not say something almost a month ago when something could have done about it? I also don't get what your doing on Strava, if you're not a fan of social media platforms? This all feels a bit stalker-y to me. Its coming across like you have an issue with the guy. Constructive criticism is fair enough, but at least let the lad get a recovery run in before you go to town on him. Or is it his training that you have the issue with?
I'm not buying this. Something's off here.

Nothing irked me . I follow peoples training logs and very few performances have been a shock when you look closer. I have offered advice anonymously I don't want a tit for tat.
He has a defeatist attitude , he is a clock watcher and got thrown when effort was high early and the baby went with the bath water. its not easy to read the truth. Training like 78 was possible and racing like that needs analysis.

AuldManKing

AuldManKing wrote: »

Bohermeen HM.


Not sure what was up - not going to analyse it - it is what it is.

What happened to not analysing this

g00gyg00 wrote: »

It's more the picking a favourable area to run your splits . Discussion forums and Strava are full of athletes who cannot replicate that in races. Why? Because the fast miles are downhill wind-assisted. We are singing to the masses waiting for Facebook style likes on social media running platforms.

AMK couldn't tell you what pace he is running without his watch. Learn to run the way we did years ago off feel. Stop trying to be a Strava super hero.

I am a 72 min half marathon runner and have never posted a training run to social media in my life.

I agree with the comment about picking favourable places to run sessions. Guilty of this for 2 or 3 sessions during this cycle.

I agree about the watch and knowing my pace: Guilty also.

"Strava Superhero" - thats a bit Bull$**** tbh - my coach sets the session, I do them, they are on Strava. That's it.

Itziger wrote: »

if I'm being honest. Then there's the cooldown. I wasn't joking on Strava when I said it was too fast.

Dont get the point you are making - I was running with company - I kept up with him - not vice versa??

Safiri wrote: »

I didn't think AMK was taking advantage of them particularly in sessions and it also seemed like a weakness in his running from other posts(Things like struggling with hills in training and races).


You are only as strong as your weakest link and a course like Dublin in the first half can be punishing if your not familar with hills. AMK would be a guy whose strength is his speed so long grinding hills can punish those type of runners as well. Those were the jigsaw pieces I put together to get that observation.

I agree that I wasn't using hills in this cycle, they weren't prescribed and my goal race is fairly flat - For DCM - I did do the sessions on hills. Up the S Bends, up the North Road, Up the hill by the monument. I done a lot of the Steve Way sessions on these roads at MP-10s.

RayCun wrote: »

What is your prerace routine? I'm reading the latest Magness at the moment, talking about priming. I don't think its a physical thing, was too early in the race (unless you come down with something today!)

Didn't change anything Ray - same as usual.

Duanington wrote: »

I'm sure he'll be along when he finishes his wine.

I actually run better when I've had a good bit to drink!

g00gyg00 wrote: »

You ran your race on the 18th of February you have more kudos and comments on that workout than yesterday.
You struggled from the start of that workout and got it done.
You got your reward of a great looking strava workout.
You suffered yesterday as I predicted after viewing that workout.

I have done similar workouts but run off feel , why trash yourself on a workout like that when your not feeling it?
Forget your Garmin , run xx minute efforts off feel and repeat 7 times .
You should be able judge what half marathon effort feels like at this stage if you cannot then bin your Garmin and buy a stopwatch.

"Great looking Strava Workout" - Such Bull again - thats not the sort of person I am. Thats a $hite comment to make and really loses me from engaging with you.

hot buttered scones wrote: »

we are going to carry a certain amount of fear/anxiety of a similar performance into every race -


Its like your lacking in self belief -/QUOTE]

I'm one of the most confident MF's you'll meet - no lack of self belief here. The 10 miler worked, I was tapered, I was better trained.




We done here??

Testosterscone

g00gyg00 wrote: »

Training like 78 was possible and racing like that needs analysis.

Where is 78 coming from? His training was geared towards for 81.xs. His paces in training were based on that, his Trim 10 mile race came in at that and his 10k PB's would indicate that is a fair assumption of potential. His target was 81.x

It was not the time he hoped for but your hyperbole commentary doesn't really support any possibly valid point you are trying to make.

g00gyg00

Testosterscone wrote: »

Where is 78 coming from? His training was geared towards for 81.xs. His paces in training were based on that, his Trim 10 mile race came in at that and his 10k PB's would indicate that is a fair assumption of potential. His target was 81.x

It was not the time he hoped for but your hyperbole commentary doesn't really support any possibly valid point you are trying to make.

Trim is a harder course.
Conditions could not have been better yesterday and the course is flat and fast.
78 with all the ducks aligned
80 was a par
81 was least expected

Testosterscone

g00gyg00 wrote: »

Trim is a harder course.
Conditions could not have been better yesterday and the course is flat and fast.
78 with all the ducks aligned
80 was a par
81 was least expected

If Trim was a harder course and he ran 6.10 average would that not indicate that the training was in line?

To be honest as his coach I would have been sending WADA to his house if he ran 78 of the training prescribed for him and what he has done to date

Itziger

AMK, I'm not implying anything with the c/d comment other than this. When I run a HM pb or very near it (I've done 1:22:xx three times) I wouldn't be able to run at 5min km pace in a cooldown. I'd be too whacked, that's all I'm saying. I'm surprised that you'd be able to do that pace, even for a short distance. 
In a German town called Trier about June 2016, the last of the 1:22s!!, I said I'd 'jog' the 800 metres back to the changing rooms. After about 3 strides that plan was binned and I walked the remaining 795 metres. See what I'm saying?
Personally, I thought you were looking at 1.21.xx yesterday. I don't know you from Adam but you come across as a decent bloke and you've responded here today to a bit of flack, mostly well intended I think. Fair dues for that. I think one or two here are going in a bit hard but deep down there may be an issue and they may have a point.
All that said, we're only a bunch of bleeding amateurs and I think we're getting a bit carried away tbh.

Swashbuckler

A bit hard alright. It's just running lads. One thing giving feedback but it's another thing entirely basically saying he's weak minded, fishing for likes on Strava, basically deconstructing his personality off a race and a few training runs. It's a joke to be honest. So what if people come on and arent telling him what he should be doing better. It's not easy to see a lad working his balls off in training and then not hitting his target on race day. People need to get some perspective.

healy1835

So just to get this straight. Boards (and Strava) lurker creates account especially to critique AMK's training & most recent race performance anonymously. Fair balls to AMK and his coach for responding in a level headed manner and taking the high road here. I'm sorry but one can't hide behind the veil of constructive criticism when they chime in in the fashion that was on here. Never met AMK before, follow his log as ive similar PBs and goals. Not sure if I've ever commented on his log but Jesus, I don't see anything like the discourse here being repeated on other logs.

RacoonQueen

Might be useful for some people to be aware that duplicate accounts are against boards rules.

More importantly, signing up for a new account to say things you don't have the guts to say from your other account that you have many posts on the Athletics forum with is totally uncool.

skyblue46

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Might be useful for some people to be aware that duplicate accounts are against boards rules.

More importantly, signing up for a new account to say things you don't have the guts to say from your other account that you have many posts on the Athletics forum with is totally uncool.

Can boards use IP addresses to identify duplicate accounts?

AuldManKing

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Might be useful for some people to be aware that duplicate accounts are against boards rules.

More importantly, signing up for a new account to say things you don't have the guts to say from your other account that you have many posts on the Athletics forum with is totally uncool.

There must be something in the rules somewhere about naming & shaming

Damo 2k9

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Might be useful for some people to be aware that duplicate accounts are against boards rules.

More importantly, signing up for a new account to say things you don't have the guts to say from your other account that you have many posts on the Athletics forum with is totally uncool.

This x 100

I hate people hiding behind usernames, setting up alt accounts to say something they wouldnt say on their main.

Why not just come in and be just as harsh to A, but on your proper account?? I can only imagine that hed much prefer it that way, because it'd turn into a discussion, ya know, the intended purpose of this site??

skyblue46

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

This x 100

I hate people hiding behind usernames, setting up alt accounts to say something they wouldnt say on their main.

Why not just come in and be just as harsh to A, but on your proper account?? I can only imagine that hed much prefer it that way, because it'd turn into a discussion, ya know, the intended purpose of this site??

True Damo, this is more like a personal attack than anything else complete with childish name calling.

Pacing Mule

AuldManKing wrote: »

My training moves onto the next phase - 5k/10k stuff - let the fun and games commence.

Great to see so many after the race - I love the social aspect of running - theres very few ar$ehole runners!!

You'll always find one though.

AuldManKing

Its all very quiet in here now.


Monday: 5m easy run on the grass at the PP. - 8:20 pace

Tuesday: AM: 3.1m (8:35/mile)easy run to get the endorphins flowing as they would be required later to get me through an interview.
PM: 7m @ 8:07 pace - down the North Road and up Chesterfield.

Wednesday: Done a good bit of dynamic stretching prior to the run and the legs hit the ground running (so to speak) - a good 7 miles and then I done some strides.
Planned 6 or so, but ended up on the other side of the park near my house and done a few more. Ended up with 9x30secs.

8m total @ 7:52 average.


In other news - I now know who g00gyg00 is.
I'm not sure what his game was as he seems like a nice bloke who has interacted with most folks on here in a supportive manner.
He seemed to have a go at me in a manner that was different from his normal posts - hiding behind a 72min HM which is false.

I don't hold a grudge or anything silly like that - he's free to post away and interact as usual.

Let that be the end of it - no more posts/PM's please regarding this issue. Its done.

Kellygirl

Hope the interview went well AMK and sounds like you are back on track with the running.

AuldManKing

Thursday: In keeping with the easy week, I done a few miles, taking in the GIR route as coach reckons it'll be a good idea to race it again this year. I love this race, GIR is my favourite race ever, I love the course. (..............repeat x100)

7m @ 7:55

Friday: Another lap of the park - going up the S Bends and back around by the North Road.
Finished off with 5x20s strides. Meant to do 6 but I seem to have a knack at not being able to count past 4.

7.14 @ 8:07

Saturday: The club were doing their long run today due to the planned yet ill fated MSB race the next day as most of them would be stewarding. A good crew turned up, as it was my 1st timerunning with them in donkeys, I didn't know many faces - but after about 100 yards it was myself and the 2 old reliables in front and we left the group and done a tour of the park & the war memorial park. The wind was shocking, the sleet into the face was horrible - but itwas great running with company.
The pace was creeping up, we took in a lot of hills too and finished out with some good steady work at 7min/miles , before the boys left me to do a 2m stint on my ownsome (& a slower pace).

15.2m @ 7:29

Sunday: Woke up to a winter wonderland and knew that I wouldn't be running for a while as it was horrid out (did I just type 'horrid' ??) anyway - got out later on that day to the Park, where it wasn't too bad on the paths.
For some reason I was wearing shorts rather than leggings and I could feel the cold immediately.

5m around the North road, Chesterfield loop at 8:20/mile was enough.

57m for the week.

Monday: I've taken advantage of how last week finished to bring this week in by a day - which meant Monday was the hill session - 14x45sec with 90s recovery

Running down to the Khyber I bumped into Overpronator but didn't join him as I was currently doing 8:30's and knew he'd be doing close to 7's - so let him off!

Made it to the bottom of the Khyber - all the snow was gone, it was a bit wet, but it was manageable.
There were about 4 other people doing hill work of some description on the Khyber, so it was a hive of activity. 1 guy was doing a similar workout to me, which got a bit awkward when we'd start nearly at the same time.

I found this one very manageable - which made me question if I was running it hard enough - I was.
I recall the last couple of hill sessions finding the incessant nature of them a bit over bearing as you finished the rep, jog back and start again. This time I think I'd have done a couple more.

with WU & CD this came to 8.2m

Tuesday: A super day out, led me back to the park and another lap up the S Bends (I think its tougher that direction)and up Chesterfield.

I was listening to a fantastic interview with Richie Sadlier and Paul Kimmage - I'm not Kimmages biggest fan,but Richies interviewing style leads down some interesting alleys. The last couple of mins are powerful stuff. Good use of the 'non interrupted Pause' by Richie as Kimmage breaks down. Terrific stuff.

7m@8:10


So - I signed up to K-Club on 31st March, the National 10k (GIR - which I love), Dunshaughlin 10k and the R&R HM in August as I'll be just back from holidays and looking to get the stuffing kicked out of me.

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I found this one very manageable - which made me question if I was running it hard enough - I was. I recall the last couple of hill sessions finding the incessant nature of them a bit over bearing as you finished the rep, jog back and start again. This time I think I'd have done a couple more.

Me and you had two very different experiences of the same session!