Playstation 4 Or Xbox One? (See mod warning in the first post)

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Na, it's fact. The ps4 controller loses by virtue of the fact that its left stick is in the wrong place. They've had four iterations to correct this and it's baffling that they still got it wrong. Stubbornness.

The left stick where it is currently - I'm fine with
The left stick as per 360/XBO - I'm fine with
The D-pad being where it is on Dualshock - I'm fine with
The D-pad being where it is on 360/XBO - I dislike

So for me, it's not about the left stick being in the wrong place, as I have no problem with it being there. The D-Pad however, for me, is in the right place on Dualshock. Never liked using it on the 360 controller.

Again, opinion, not fact.

kunst nugget

Some people say popcorn gifs are after getting really, really old really, really fast. But that's just crazy talk…

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

The left stick where it is currently - I'm fine with
The left stick as per 360/XBO - I'm fine with
The D-pad being where it is on Dualshock - I'm fine with
The D-pad being where it is on 360/XBO - I dislike

So for me, it's not about the left stick being in the wrong place, as I have no problem with it being there. The D-Pad however, for me, is in the right place on Dualshock. Never liked using it on the 360 controller.

Again, opinion, not fact.

No, it's fact. It's simple ergonomics.....like the fact that they place the trigger buttons where they do on the controller. This isn't by accident, it's by design and its good design. If they place the triggers somewhere else, there will be some who prefer it.....but that wouldn't make it good design.

The Left control stick is the primary method of controlling the vast majority of games, therefore it should be placed where the thumb would naturally sit when handling the controller.

The playstation controller puts the d-pad in this primary position, forcing the player to stretch his/her thumb. This would be fine if the d-pad was primary method of control like in the ps1 days....but it's not. It's not ergonomic and a hold over from the days before sticks and 360 degrees of movement in games.

Now, you might prefer this and that's fine. Opinion and all that. But it is still "wrong" from a design and ergonomic point of view.

Star Lord

I would take the Wii U or PS3/4 controllers over the Xbox controllers, something about asymmetric sticks that I've never really liked, even back on the Gamecube (which was a great controller in all other respects)

Otacon

Kirby wrote: »

No, it's fact. It's simple ergonomics.....like the fact that they place the trigger buttons where they do on the controller. This isn't by accident, it's by design and its good design. If they place the triggers somewhere else, there will be some who prefer it.....but that wouldn't make it good design.

The Left control stick is the primary method of controlling the vast majority of games, therefore it should be placed where the thumb would naturally sit when handling the controller.

The playstation controller puts the d-pad in this primary position, forcing the player to stretch his/her thumb. This would be fine if the d-pad was primary method of control like in the ps1 days....but it's not. It's not ergonomic and a hold over from the days before sticks and 360 degrees of movement in games.

Now, you might prefer this and that's fine. Opinion and all that. But it is still "wrong" from a design and ergonomic point of view.

Seeing as gifs are not appreciated, can I ask for links to support this?

If what you say is true, is the Wii U Pro controller not the best controller then? Seeing as the right stick is the primary method for controlling the view in the vast majority of games?

Kirby

Otacon wrote: »

Seeing as gifs are not appreciated, can I ask for links to support this?

If what you say is true, is the Wii U Pro controller not the best controller then? Seeing as the right stick is the primary method for controlling the view in the vast majority of games?

The right stick may control the view, but you are going to spend a lot more time pressing the four face buttons. Therefore these buttons should take precedence on the controller.

StarLord brought up the Cube controller and this is a good example. Here it is.


As you can see, they made the A button very large. The biggest button. Why? Because you press it more than any other button in the majority of games. This was a leap forward in design when every other controller had every button the same size.

The cube controller made other mistakes, it wasn't perfect. The d-pad and c-stick were both poor but the position of everything on the controller was a good example of clever design.

Generic Dreadhead

Japanese + Ergonomics = Win

Evade

Kirby wrote: »

The right stick may control the view, but you are going to spend a lot more time pressing the four face buttons. Therefore these buttons should take precedence on the controller.

The right stick turns your character left and right in most games too.* So unless you get everywhere by strafing you'll be using the right stick almost constantly.

*Unless you're using one of the weird stick configurations.

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

No, it's fact. It's simple ergonomics.....like the fact that they place the trigger buttons where they do on the controller. This isn't by accident, it's by design and its good design. If they place the triggers somewhere else, there will be some who prefer it.....but that wouldn't make it good design.

The Left control stick is the primary method of controlling the vast majority of games, therefore it should be placed where the thumb would naturally sit when handling the controller.

The playstation controller puts the d-pad in this primary position, forcing the player to stretch his/her thumb. This would be fine if the d-pad was primary method of control like in the ps1 days....but it's not. It's not ergonomic and a hold over from the days before sticks and 360 degrees of movement in games.

Now, you might prefer this and that's fine. Opinion and all that. But it is still "wrong" from a design and ergonomic point of view.

And this is why I prefer the Dualshock over the 360/XBO layout. You have to stretch your thumb a lot more to press right (or make any precision input) on the D-pad where it's located on the 360/XBO controller, than moving the stick.

Again, I'm fine with the stick being in either location. But the D-pad is much better where it is on the Dualshock, and while it's not the primary input method, the uses it's generally given (switching weapons, giving commands) a lot of the time requires quick precise input.

I still don't think the difference is large enough in any way to be considered "wrong", hence why I maintain it's down to opinion, not fact. If it was wrong, it would be harder to play games, which it isn't. Not only that, but the post I was responding to simply said the PS controller was "completely crap" compared to the XBO controller. Even if you take your ergonomic points regarding the left stick as fact, it still doesn't make one controller factually inferior or superior to the other.

kunst nugget

Cormac... wrote: »

Japanese + Ergonomics = Win

Japanese people with smaller hands vs European people with larger hands + Ergonomics = Not necessarily a win.

Something that the DS4 seems to be correcting with moving it's analog sticks apart.

Kirby is talking about ergonomics and design as if they are exact sciences when they are not. Look at the Qwerty keyboard - I'm sure it's not the most efficiently designed system for inputting information but it persists because people are most comfortable with the format and most attempts to make the keyboard more ergonomic have been aberrations that never caught on with the general public. Some people are more comfortable with the different controllers and different arguments can be made for the design and ergonomics for both controllers but I don't believe you can definitively call either controller the winner.

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

And this is why I prefer the Dualshock over the 360/XBO layout. You have to stretch your thumb a lot more to press right (or make any precision input) on the D-pad where it's located on the 360/XBO controller, than moving the stick.

Again, I'm fine with the stick being in either location. But the D-pad is much better where it is on the Dualshock, and while it's not the primary input method, the uses it's generally given (switching weapons, giving commands) a lot of the time requires quick precise input.

I still don't think the difference is large enough in any way to be considered "wrong", hence why I maintain it's down to opinion, not fact. If it was wrong, it would be harder to play games, which it isn't. Not only that, but the post I was responding to simply said the PS controller was "completely crap" compared to the XBO controller. Even if you take your ergonomic points regarding the left stick as fact, it still doesn't make one controller factually inferior or superior to the other.

Yes, it does. I can prefer my old banger of a car to my neighbours Porsche. That's personal preference. But I can't deny which is the superior car. I prefer mine, but the Porsche is superior by any metric you choose to compar them by.

The ps4 controller is ergonomically inferior. That's a fact. If they swapped the position of the d-pad and left stick around, it would make the controller better.

Generic Dreadhead

kunst nugget wrote: »

Japanese people with smaller hands vs European people with larger hands + Ergonomics = Not necessarily a win.

Who says something like this and then tries to make a valid point afterwards :pac::pac::pac:

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, it does. I can prefer my old banger of a car to my neighbours Porsche. That's personal preference. But I can't deny which is the superior car. I prefer mine, but the Porsche is superior by any metric you choose to compar them by.

The ps4 controller is ergonomically inferior. That's a fact.

A fact if talking only and purely about ergonomics, and even then I'd like to see some basis on the ergonomics of both controllers with all aspects of the controllers taken into consideration.

The PS4 controller has a touchpad and an in-built speaker. The XBO controller doesn't. But that doesn't mean the PS4 controller is better 'as a whole'.

You can't judge the controllers on one or two differences and claim one is better than the other. All aspects of both controllers have to be taken into consideration and compared. Unless you can provide such, then calling one controller inferior (not "ergonomically inferior", just "inferior") is opinion, not fact.

CiDeRmAn

There's a philosophy forum hereabouts isn't there?
The mods should post a link to discussions highlighting the differences between subjective opinion and objective, empirical fact.
Seems to be something consistently mixed up around here.

And I enjoy the Dualshock series of controllers.
I also like the Xbox series of controllers.
The WiiU Pro pad, with its symmetrical stick placement feels wrong to me, so I bought a third party pad with the sticks in the 360 style configuration, much better... for me.

I didn't find the GC stick a ball to use, but I did enjoy the N64 controller, a far more devisive controller.

The XB1 controller I used on Ghosts for half and hour and a quick blast of Forza on a demo stand in a shop, seems pretty nice tbh.
I'm not entirely enthused about the replacement of the Start and Select buttons on the PS4 controller and the touchpad feels unnecessary.
I find the Options button too hard to locate by touch and it's too easy to press the edge of the touchpad instead.
Otherwise it's a decent controller and I can't see anything wrong with it, but it's not really remarkable in any way, Sony don't seem to have added any of the intriguing haptics that MS have done, which is unfortunate.

johnny_ultimate

The thing about the Dualshock is that it has always been bland, from its inception. Absolutely serviceable, but bland. There have been better controllers, there have been worse, but Dualshock has always occupied a wholly mediocre middle ground. It does nothing exceptionally, and nothing appallingly (D-Pad aside, maybe, but it certainly shows up the 360 effort).

The Dualshock 4 is a bit less bland than its predecessors, although I may be attributing that in large part to the funky lightbar. But almost everything about it is a notch better than it was before, particularly the triggers. Its biggest flaw is the rubber on the analog sticks which is shockingly poor - easily fixable with a couple of thumb grips, but it shouldn't wear down so quickly even if it is solvable. I know not everyone has experienced, but it's happened to the two of mine, and I wouldn't consider them to have been subjected to particularly intense amounts of play.

Haven't played the One controller enough to compare, but it seems like a very solid piece of kit if perhaps not as radical as its purported budget would suggest. Can't say I've ever had a strong preference over symmetrical / asymmetrical placement though, even if for most genres (2D platformers and the like aside) I'd have preferred the 360 to the Dualshock - but again that was mostly down to the latter's utter blandness and the former's excellent triggers and face buttons.

For reasons impossible to articulate, perhaps because it's utterly illogical, I must point out that I'd consider playing a Tony Hawks game with anything other than a Dualshock is borderline heresy.

kunst nugget

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, it does. I can prefer my old banger of a car to my neighbours Porsche. That's personal preference. But I can't deny which is the superior car. I prefer mine, but the Porsche is superior by any metric you choose to compar them by.

The ps4 controller is ergonomically inferior. That's a fact.

It's patently not a fact and you stating over and over again is not going to change that.

Here is an interesting article on ergonomics in gaming. Interesting quote here:

Upon repeated tests, the biggest determinants of how precise or responsive a mechanic feels to a player is the software side of the mechanics design and feedback design, not the controller design. Yes, the input devices shape our expectations initially, but mechanics and feedback design make up the vast majority of influential elements.

http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2011/8/22/controller-design-ergonomics-pt7.html

Grayditch

Someone link me to an article that proves the asymmetric sticks are undeniably better. My hands keep telling me they really don't care either way, and I just want to prove them wrong. With facts.

CiDeRmAn

The controller isn't really meant to have a character of its own anyway, it's a means to an end, to allow you to take control of the on screen Universe, with the minimum of "personality" of the controller breaking you out of the spell.
No sense in spending all that money convincing you are a Pirate Captain on the high seas or a rally driver negotiating hairpins around a Nordic forest at twilight if you have to tear your eyes away from the screen and look at the fabulously complex controller in your hands.
The only place where it's different is where the controller becomes an integral part of the game, recently Tearaway on the Vita did that with the whole console, Kororinpa on the Wii is another good example of integrating the controller into the gameplay as a character of its own.

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

You can't judge the controllers on one or two differences and claim one is better than the other. All aspects of both controllers have to be taken into consideration and compared. Unless you can provide such, then calling one controller inferior (not "ergonomically inferior", just "inferior") is opinion, not fact.

Well it depends on what those differences are and how major or minor they are. For example, if we look at the triggers on the ps3 and the ps4.



As you can see, the triggers on the ps3 were convex. This was bad design as it resulted the fingers slipping off the trigger. They corrected this in the ps4 trigger design by making them concave in shape allowing the finger to "hug" the trigger and not slide off.

A good improvement to a flaw in their design. Now, there are some people who prefer the ps3 triggers. That's personal preference. But the ps4 triggers are superior. That's fact.

The position of the left stick is the biggest flaw in the design of the controller. Changing it might make people who are used to the status quo irritated, but it would make the controller better as a whole. Until that happens, other controllers which get this right are going to be superior in this regard. They might fall down in other areas, but minor flaws like the ps3 trigger issue can be forgiven easier than this one. It's very basic.

Magill

kunst nugget

Cormac... wrote: »

Who says something like this and then tries to make a valid point afterwards :pac::pac::pac:

Because the difference in hand size would have an effect on how a controller is designed.

Take for example the original Xbox controller being different for the Japanese market.

The "Controller S" (codenamed "Akebono"), a smaller, lighter Xbox controller, was originally the standard Xbox controller only in Japan,[7] designed for users with smaller hands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Controller

I've read before people complaining that the Dualshock was made for Asian hands and that's why they think it is uncomfortable. Tbh, I've pretty big hands and it's never bothered me.

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Well it depends on what those differences are and how major or minor they are. For example, if we look at the triggers on the ps3 and the ps4.

As you can see, the triggers on the ps3 were convex. This was bad design as it resulted the fingers slipping off the trigger. They corrected this in the ps4 trigger design by making them concave in shape allowing the finger to "hug" the trigger and not slide off.

A good improvement to a flaw in their design. Now, there are some people who prefer the ps3 triggers. That's personal preference. But the ps4 triggers are superior. That's fact.

The position of the left stick is the biggest flaw in the design of the controller. Changing it might make people who are used to the status quo irritated, but it would make the controller better as a whole. Until that happens, other controllers which get this right are going to be superior in this regard. They might fall down in other areas, but minor flaws like the ps3 trigger issue can be forgiven easier than this one. It's very basic.

And again, I simply said that stating the PS4 controller was "completely crap" compared to the XBO controller was opinion, not fact. Not breaking everything down to ergonomics or focusing on one aspect only, just that taken as a whole, which controller is better mostly comes down to personal preference. If the position of the left stick was bad enough, Sony would have changed it. But it's not, it's perfectly usable where it is, and isn't enough of a flaw to make that big a difference in determining which controller is better than the other "as a whole".

As johnny said, the controller has far bigger issues than the position of the left stick. The rubber is eroding from some people's sticks (not happened to mine but I'm going to order cover grips for them anyway). The battery doesn't last as long as it should. That being said, the in-built speaker is a great addition. The touchpad can be great when used right. The motion sensor is great. The share button is a nice addition.

Neither controller is provably inferior or superior to the other.

Kirby

Well obviously whoever said it was "completely crap" was being crass. It's a serviceable controller that is superior to many others in a lot of different ways. But ignoring it's flaws in an emotional "it's better coz I sed so and I like it, Right!?!" isn't very intelligent or constructive either. Nor is claiming that because Sony hasn't fixed it yet, it obviously isn't a problem. Companies persist with flawed design for decades for a myriad of reasons.

If you recall the early prototype for the ps3 controller was a massive difference. It was shaped like a boomerang. Here it is.



Sony fans went nuts. It's reaction was fairly negative and so at their next trade show they went back to what people knew.

Personally, I think Sony feel like the look of their controller is important to them which is why it hasn't changed much. Continuity. A person can go from ps2 to ps3 to ps4 and immediately feel comfortable because they are all very similar. There is a lot to be said for that. It's a solid strategy. The trade off for this continuity is sticking with your mistakes, namely the stick position.

Penn

Kirby wrote: »

Well obviously whoever said it was "completely crap" was being crass. It's a serviceable controller that is superior to many others in a lot of different ways. But ignoring it's flaws in an emotional "it's better coz I sed so and I like it, Right!?!" isn't very intelligent or constructive either. Nor is claiming that because Sony hasn't fixed it yet, it obviously isn't a problem. Companies persist with flawed design for decades for a myriad of reasons.

If you recall the early prototype for the ps3 controller was a massive difference. It was shaped like a boomerang. Here it is.

Sony fans went nuts. It's reaction was fairly negative and so at their next trade show they went back to what people knew.

Personally, I feel Sony feel the look of their controller is important to them which is why it hasn't changed much. Continuity. A person can go from ps2 to ps3 to ps4 and immediately feel comfortable because that are all very similar. There is a lot to be said for that. It's a solid strategy. The trade off for this continuity is sticking with your mistakes, namely the stick position.

Never said it's better because I like it, merely said I have no preference between its location on the PS controllers and the Xbox controllers. It's the location of the D-Pad that is the determining factor for me, and even then, that's my opinion, not a fact. No emotion, no nostalgia, simply that I prefer the Dualshock layout as a whole. I'm also not ignoring its flaws. I've conceded that ergonomically speaking, you might very well be right. But it's not "wrong" enough to be a major flaw. It's not a big enough problem that it has any tangible effect on playing a game.

I honestly believe we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm talking about the controller as a whole and you're talking about one particular aspect of it. For that reason, I feel it's best we agree to disagree and move on. I would shake your hand but for some reason I've a sore thumb after playing the PS4 all weekend. No idea why

Retr0gamer

All I know is nothing will ever beat this:

FAILSAFE 00

Kirby wrote: »

Well obviously whoever said it was "completely crap" was being crass. It's a serviceable controller that is superior to many others in a lot of different ways. But ignoring it's flaws in an emotional "it's better coz I sed so and I like it, Right!?!" isn't very intelligent or constructive either. Nor is claiming that because Sony hasn't fixed it yet, it obviously isn't a problem. Companies persist with flawed design for decades for a myriad of reasons.

If you recall the early prototype for the ps3 controller was a massive difference. It was shaped like a boomerang. Here it is.



Sony fans went nuts. It's reaction was fairly negative and so at their next trade show they went back to what people knew.

Personally, I think Sony feel like the look of their controller is important to them which is why it hasn't changed much. Continuity. A person can go from ps2 to ps3 to ps4 and immediately feel comfortable because they are all very similar. There is a lot to be said for that. It's a solid strategy. The trade off for this continuity is sticking with your mistakes, namely the stick position.

I agree.

The look of the DualShock controller is part of the brand so although they have moved the analog sticks on DS4 to a better position they didn't swap the left analog position to where the D-pad which is a shame.

Even Nintendo have made their controller asymmetrical like Xbox.

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

Never said it's better because I like it, merely said I have no preference between its location on the PS controllers and the Xbox controllers. It's the location of the D-Pad that is the determining factor for me, and even then, that's my opinion, not a fact. No emotion, no nostalgia, simply that I prefer the Dualshock layout as a whole. I'm also not ignoring its flaws. I've conceded that ergonomically speaking, you might very well be right. But it's not "wrong" enough to be a major flaw. It's not a big enough problem that it has any tangible effect on playing a game.

I honestly believe we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm talking about the controller as a whole and you're talking about one particular aspect of it. For that reason, I feel it's best we agree to disagree and move on. I would shake your hand but for some reason I've a sore thumb after playing the PS4 all weekend. No idea why

Absolutely. For the record, I actually do like the controller. And controller flaws don't stop me from enjoying games. It didn't let it stop me from playing and adoring the last of us. I just think they could make it better. I'm hoping the ps5 controller in 7 or 8 years will do the job.

Of course, that console will likely be bundled with Sony's version of the Oculus Rift but I'm sure we will see the trusty old Dualshock too. :P

kunst nugget

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

I agree.

The look of the DualShock controller is part of the brand so although they have moved the analog sticks on DS4 to a better position they didn't swap the left analog position to where the D-pad which is a shame.

Even Nintendo have made their controller asymmetrical like Xbox.

I'm pretty sure they haven't. Isn't it just some of the third party ones that are asymmetrical?

CiDeRmAn

Yup, the WiiU controller is symmetrical and it's really really weird to play COD with it, buttons are in the wrong place and muscle memory from playing it on the PS3 or 360 is turfed out the window.
Actually, the biggest flaw of the WiiU controller is the absence of analogue triggers.

Riesen_Meal

That Wii U Pro controller looks mint, Nintendo always had the controller upper hand in my opinion, for comfort mainly, I think that stems back all the hours I used NES, SNES and N64 controllers, wasn't a fan of the Wii Mote though, loved the original Wii pro contoller that was like the SNES one....