Crèche refusal to return deposit

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

No, she changed the September start date in July. More than six weeks notice, as per the agreement, and plenty of time for them to find another child to take that place.

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

Wrong on so many fronts. If it was the end of July with a start date of 1st September, for instance, then it is less than 6 weeks notice. You are making assertions without knowing the facts.
The creche could well have refused another child because of this.
They could most certainly be out of picket if they took on staff to meet the ratios required as a result if this child.
OP paid a deposit and, I feel, in this particular case should not have it refunded.

Chattastrophe!

What would be the point of mentioning a six-week cancellation notice period if there's no reason for the customer to give it? "We require six weeks notice of cancellations, but it doesn't matter whether you give us that or not, we're going to keep your deposit either way." Makes no sense.

They should certainly have included something in the agreement to say what would happen if the start date is rescheduled by the parents. E.g. if it's rescheduled, the right to refund of deposit is waived. However it seems the creche didn't do that, and that's their own fault.

By the way, it's certainly not unusual to change start dates like that. Many mothers don't decide until they're on maternity leave whether or not they'll take the additional unpaid leave. So it makes sense to book for the earliest expected start date, and reschedule if necessary. Creches are well used to this. In fact, when the September start date was cancelled, the creche probably had babies with a July start date that was rescheduled to September. So they probably had the space filled even before they had to go calling parents on waiting lists etc.

I know that, in contract law, where there is ambiguity, the contract will be interpreted in favour of the party who DIDN'T draft the contract (I.e. the parents in this case.) If I were in the OPs position, I'd be holding out for my full deposit to be refunded (unless of course the signed agreement made it clear that deposits would be retained even where sufficient notice was given.) I've a feeling the creche would refund it even before the case got as far as the Small Claims Court.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I think you have missed the point. They have a six week notice requirement for this very reason. OP did not give 6 weeks notice of cancellation. And, the issue is not about changed dates - they can happen - she cancelled her booking altogether after deferring the start date - worse again! Read the entire piece.

Melendez

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ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Melendez wrote: »

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My point exactly!
But it doesn't matter as she cancelled after September anyway!

Melendez

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AltAccount

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

It's not like the creche would've had an empty space as a result between September and now. I sincerely doubt that they are out of pocket at all over the whole thing.

IMHO crèche are out €2-3k or so for the kid they could have started in Sept in the OP's place.
Instead this place stayed empty from Sept to prob Dec because of the OP's messing about.

OP you may be entitled to the deposit legally, but if you've any decency you won't pursue it - you've messed this business aroun enough.

Melendez

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Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

That assumes the creche is filled to capacity - tends not to be the case these days. Staff ratios are more of an issue, but creches tend to employ staff on a casual basis so can remedy this fairly quickly. I doubt the creche lost out financially, other than the disappointment of losing a customer.

The law doesn't assume. And in this case the law is on the side of the crèche

Melendez

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Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

The point I was replying to was the assumption made by AltAccount that the creche was at a loss of 2-3K due to being messed about by the Opening poster and therefore they are morally obliged to give up the deposit regardless of whether they are legally entitled to it. This is highly unlikely to be the case.

How have you established that the law is on the side of the creche? I have given an opinion of what I believe would be the legal position and shown my reasoning, but you state it as fact. Can you back this up?

Yes I can

Melendez

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JimsAlterEgo

based on my understanding of what is written in the contract the refund should happen, the OP followed the correct procedures. The issue seems to be that the creche didn't have this scenario covered.

green123

green123 wrote: »

there is no point in a business taking a deposit if the deposit is going to be returned.

it would be a waste of time for a business to take a deposit if the customer can just change their mind and get the deposit back.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

a deposit is taken to hold the customer to a deal.

nobody has answered my question yet.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

Melendez

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Greenmachine

I suspect the 6 week notice period is to withdraw the child from the creche as in the child is already enrolled and parent can't just stop paying. They have 6 weeks where they are required to maintain payments before they can cancel their child's enrollment. I have friends working in creches where the parents are required to give notice. Giving the creche time to refill the place. The creche has already extended the OP a huge courtesy in changing the start date. On top of that they have now decided to offer half the deposit back to appease the OP. I suggest the OP should take this and run. Taking the case to small claim will likely result in the case being laughed out of court.

Melendez

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Greenmachine

Melendez wrote: »

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I have not made up a single thing. I suggest you withdraw that allegation. Your link mean nothing in the slightest going by your own logic. They have already made a reasonable accommodation to the OP.

Melendez

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Rick Rod

Melendez wrote: »

You are suggesting the six weeks notice only applies where the child has started in the creche - this is fantasy on your part, it is not what we have been told in the opening post.

I have provided a link to a creche where the deposit is refundable prior to the child starting, to prove to you that it happens.

It happens with appropriate notice though. This is not the case here at all

Melendez

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Bepolite

green123 wrote: »

nobody has answered my question yet.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

The taking of a deposit has to be proportionate to the risk/loss incurred. There is legislation which govern the fairness of consumer contracts. Even if there was not the crèche themselves have put the clause in the contract, and they are at liberty to do that. They obviously balanced the possible need for a parent to withdraw a child, the amount of time it would take them to fill the place, and the inducement to enter the contract on the side of potential customers. Obviously they are more likely to get customers with an 'out' clause then they are if they have a NO REFUNDS written across the page in red ink.

What you can't do, and I can;t understand why people seem to be so angered about this is say X in the contract and then not stand over it. How is that in any way fair? The OP would fall squarely into my timewaster definition but that doesn't alter the fact the contract allows for it.

dudara

green123 wrote: »

nobody has answered my question yet.

why would a business take a deposit ? what good is a deposit to a business if the deposit was so easy to get back ?

A business can choose their own deposit policy. If they want to be nice, and give customers refunds on deposits, then they can do so.

Eire Go Brach

AltAccount wrote: »

OP you may be entitled to the deposit legally, but if you've any decency you won't pursue it - you've messed this business aroun enough.

As the partner of the OP I have found this whole thread very helpful and interesting.

But people can be quite rude. Op has been accused of being stupid, a messer and a time waster. So I have decided to add to it.

People need to remember we are not putting a deposit down to purchase a car,bike,sofa etc.

We are buying our child's future.

My partner on maternity leave took the role of finding the creche. Paid the deposit. Then Prime time on the creches hit a week or 2 later. If your a parent you will remember how this made you feel.

We discussed this and my partner wanted a second opinion and for us both examine childminding options more thoroughly.

The opportunity for extended maternity leave came available. Although tough financially, we both seen this extra time with our child as priceless. Hence the moving of the dates. I would also say this is very common in childminding. We gave well over 6 weeks notice to the creche.

After further investigation into the Creche we decided it would be not the best option for our child.(For some reason the only HSE report we could get was from 07/10) among other reasons. We gave 6.5 week notice.

So yes we paid a deposit for a place for our child. Then moved the date so mother could spend more time with her child. Giving the Creche well over 6 weeks. We then Cancelled(çall it changed our mind) going on what we thought was best for our child. Giving the Creche 6.5 weeks notice. There T&C Stating "if a place has been reserved with a deposit, six weeks notice is required for cancellation and deposit refund"

So the question more so is, The fact we moved the dates giving plenty of notice does there 6 week notice thats in there T&C still apply?

The whole deposit thing seems to be a grey area. I understand exactly why they are there.

Consumer Help Deposits Info

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

We all cherish our children but that doesn't change the facts. You actually, to my mind, confirmed your acceptance of the place in creche by extending the start date to December rather than cancelling in July. The creche has certainly be messed around. Legally, it's a grey area alright but morally she caused the creche to operate in the belief that the child was starting in December. All that said, it's a matter between yourselves and the creche to sort out.

AltAccount

Thanks for quoting my post. We did a very similar thing in Sept before moving our 2yo and cancelling and moving our 9mo with the crèche.

They held a spot for several months for us, just like they did for you. I don't know if they turned down other children for our place, but they certainly didn't seem to have much capacity for more kids so I'd expect they did.

We held, then extended our spot, got a "bad feeling" from the place with our 2yo, cancelled the place and moved both.

We were within our rights to request the deposit, but didn't. We had messed them around enough.


You had a place held, you delayed entry but they couldn't take another child on for a 3 month stint (the kiddie equivalent of a bed blocker?), you then cancelled after they showed the goodwill and flexibility to let you postpone and "bed block".

They then showed further goodwill by offering half your deposit back.

Take it and move on, like I said before you may be legally in the right but when it comes to being a customer of their crèche you're an awful time waster


All IMHO, of course.

Bepolite

Deposits aren't really a grey area, they involve Unfair Contract Terms regs so are a little more complex than some areas. Frankly our entire consumer law is in dire need of an update, hopefully we'll just lift what the English do.

As for being a timewaster, from my point of view thats what's happned, the checks you've mentioned are good ones to do but before you take a place. That said I'd have done exactly the same thing given an unfavourable report on the place.

Eire Go Brach

AltAccount wrote: »

an awful time waster

I think your judgement on us is a bit harsh and rude.

They did accept our change of dates. They also have 6 weeks cancelation policy in there T&C. Which is obviously to make customers feel comfortable about putting a deposit down.
It's not as if we set out to do this.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You paid a deposit for a place in September and cancelled in October after they agreed to hold the replace for you child. The six weeks was long over by then,. Had you cancelled Six weeks before September then fair enough. You are not being fair in this. You messed them around and, as is your right, decided to go elsewhere but to expect the full deposit back is a bit raw.

AltAccount

As a customer, you've wasted their time, IMHO.

It's not a comment on you personally or said as an insult. It's an observation on a specific course of action in a specific set of circumstances.