Riello RDB2 - Stumped

shane0007

Had a call to a RDB2 lock out issue every morning & it has me stumped. Customer resets & it works happily on the various times it's on until the next morning when it locks out again.
First off capacitor was reading 3.3uF on a 4.5uF capacitor so changed that. Checked new one before fitting & reading 4.5uF.
Solenoid coil reading 97.5ohms.
Oil pump was flickering a lot & found filter blocked. Cleaned filter but an ever so slight flicker on gauge.
Changed nozzle.
Analyised to MI's & all perfect.
Customer went out to boiler every morning & watched it. It fires every morning without fail but runs for exactly 3 minutes every morning then locks out!

Grant Technical also stumped.

I am thinking the control box is timing 3 minutes lock out due to incorrect lux reading from either faulty control box or faulty photocell.

Anyone experience this one? Client wants to stick in a new burner but I would rather resolve it.

Wearb

shane0007 wrote: »

Had a call to a RDB2 lock out issue every morning & it has me stumped. Customer resets & it works happily on the various times it's on until the next morning when it locks out again.
First off capacitor was reading 3.3uF on a 4.5uF capacitor so changed that. Checked new one before fitting & reading 4.5uF.
Solenoid coil reading 97.5ohms.
Oil pump was flickering a lot & found filter blocked. Cleaned filter but an ever so slight flicker on gauge.
Changed nozzle.
Analyised to MI's & all perfect.
Customer went out to boiler every morning & watched it. It fires every morning without fail but runs for exactly 3 minutes every morning then locks out!

Grant Technical also stumped.

I am thinking the control box is timing 3 minutes lock out due to incorrect lux reading from either faulty control box or faulty photocell.

Anyone experience this one? Client wants to stick in a new burner but I would rather resolve it.

Got caught out for a few visits about 10 days ago with morning start probs. in the end it was almost imperceptible damage to plastic pump drive. Probably no help Shane but just in case I decided to mention it anyway

Also see below a copy of my posting from last year. Though this would probably not allow the burner to run all day after a reset, it may be worth checking.

"BTW, just in case this is of any use to anybody; while recently fault finding on a grant 50/70 modular boiler, I discovered that the fault was that when the system got hot one of the HT leads (which was close to the electronic eye was expanding and covering the eye. When I unplugged the wire and replaced it after rotating it 180 degrees (so that the curved part was now facing away from the eye) it ran perfectly and 2 months later is still going fine.
Maybe something to watch out for. Might help someone.

To better explain: The wire was travelling in a curve from the transformer to the electrodes. When heated the wire lengthened (or softened) slightly, either way it allowed the curve to move out to obstruct the photocell. "

Wearb

Just a thought. I am assuming that the customer -when talking about resetting it- is not talking about resetting it using the over heat stat.... you just never know with them sometimes.

jimf

had a similar one 2 years ago shane and it was the fcukin control box

just happened to call at the right time and timed out after 6 second purge changed cb and problem solved

but should have said the lockouts were more erratic

Pete67

Is the customer certain that the burner actually fires, or is he just hearing the burner start sequence? i had a very similar problem previously, which turned out to be the ignition electrode gap being too large - it would ignite when warm/hot but rarely when cold - resetting the electrode gap to MI solved the problem.

.jacksparrow.

Have you changed the photocell?

I'd be tempted to try the control box next.

jimf

would like to get a coil reading after the 3min lockout

shane0007

Electrode are perfect. Solenoid coil is perfect. Customer is pressing the correct reset button. It is going to lock out after exactly 3 minutes every single morning. It does not lock out after that or when it comes on for its evening timed programme.

For me, I'm thinking the control box is not liking the lux reading from the photocell during the early morning firing.

Wearb

Have you been able to be there yourself during this first start. Have you managed to start it up with oil pressure gauge in place to see if there is a significant pressure drop before lockout.

I am sure that you will have thought of all the suggestions being put forward here, but you never know when even a wrong suggestion will end up pointing you in the right direction.

shane0007

No as the timed morning programme is 6am.
Pressure readings have been fine apart from a slight flicker, plus the pump passed a vacuum test.
For a pressure drop to be mornings only, there would have to be a valid reason.

The 3 minute run is the thrower. Grant are stumped too so I have to call Riello in the morning.

oikster

How many times have you checked the solenoid?

Wearb

shane0007 wrote: »

No as the timed morning programme is 6am.
Pressure readings have been fine apart from a slight flicker, plus the pump passed a vacuum test.
For a pressure drop to be mornings only, there would have to be a valid reason.

The 3 minute run is the thrower. Grant are stumped too so I have to call Riello in the morning.

Just thinking of oil being colder in the early morning and there being a poor supply until the pump warms up. For this scenario there would need to be barely enough supply during normal running. On second thoughts, I suppose in such an instance it would not run for 3 minutes to start with.

We are all waiting with baited breath to see the results of this.

jimf

this is one bitch you would like to have at home connected to your own system

then you have a better chance of finding wtf is going on

jimf

where is the williewarmer when you need him banned of course ????

scudo2

Trial and error.
I've had a few intermitant problems.
Your problem is electrical.
First change photo cell. Next change solonide coil. Next change box
But you know all that.

Does the shaft of the oil pump feel rough if you turn it. If so change it.

Once I came across Thermostat that wasn't making good switching contact and sometimes only sending down 170volts, that one baffled me for 2 weeks and only discovered it after almost giving up and tried a different burner and still had the odd lock out every 2 or 3 days, same as before.

I've also come across a few RDBs with the black lockout wire also connected to the dual stat. that done damage to box after a while.

Hope this helps.

Have fun as I've figured your proberly as determended and as stubborn as me !

agusta

jimf wrote: »

this is one bitch you would like to have at home connected to your own system

then you have a better chance of finding wtf is going on

What i have done on a few times is give the customer my spare burner and set it up for them and then take there burner and fit it to my grant boiler leaving the pressure gauge fitted,and analyse the burner over a couple days to fix the problem

jimf

agusta wrote: »

What i have done on a few times is give the customer my spare burner and set it up for them and then take there burner and fit it to my grant boiler leaving the pressure gauge fitted,and analyse the burner over a couple days to fix the problem

I have done the very same lot of pissin around but its better than what others do and tell the customer sorry luv your burner is ballcocked and fit a new one

Dtp1979

agusta wrote: »

What i have done on a few times is give the customer my spare burner and set it up for them and then take there burner and fit it to my grant boiler leaving the pressure gauge fitted,and analyse the burner over a couple days to fix the problem

That's a good idea. Shane I've a good rdb 2 in pwo if you want a loan of it

corkgsxr

I had a problem like that and one of the neutrals wasn't connected that well

agusta

jimf wrote: »

I have done the very same lot of pissin around but its better than what others do and tell the customer sorry luv your burner is ballcocked and fit a new one

its like the story i was told about this plumber that done the oftec oil course.the lecturer said to the class that if yea have any burners at home not working to bring them in if want and we will take a look at them in the workshop.This plumber went home with 11 perfect riello burners which would basically pay for his course,the plumber fixed them himself.The lecturer said to him its your customers i feel sorry for!,the oftec course gave the plumber the knowledge to repair them.

jimf

agusta wrote: »

its like the story i was told about this plumber that done the oftec oil course.the lecturer said to the class that if yea have any burners at home not working to bring them in if want and we will take a look at them in the workshop.This plumber went home with 11 perfect riello burners which would basically pay for his course,the plumber fixed them himself.The lecturer said to him its your customers i feel sorry for!,the oftec course gave the plumber the knowledge to repair them.

bet you he bough the ould fga and smoke pump as well

shane0007

Customer lives a 40 minute drive from me so I don't really want to replace a part to see if it works the next morning only to do another 80 minute drive round trip to stick in another part.
The 3 minute run time is the odd thing. The morning thing can really only be temperature related. Customer has timed run time every morning & said it is exactly 3 minute every time. If solenoid was the issue, temperature affecting, then the run time would vary depending on temperature. If the issue was pump, the same would apply.
The only thing that can compute a timed lock out is the control box. So this is why I'm thinking either photocell or the control box itself.

jimf

any tigerloop fitted shane

shane0007

No, gravity fed with about 1.5m of head as tank is on a raised bank, behind the boiler house.

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

No, gravity fed with about 1.5m of head as tank is on a raised bank, behind the boiler house.

Probably just change control box and see what happens. Nothin to lose at this stage!

shane0007

I will be speaking to Riello tomorrow as I don't know if the control box has a 3 minute control zone. If not, a priest might be the next option.

Dtp1979

shane0007 wrote: »

I will be speaking to Riello tomorrow as I don't know if the control box has a 3 minute control zone. If not, a priest might be the next option.

I wouldn't be too dependant on riello tech. I rang them once about a new warmflow I was commissioning giving very high CO. they told me to turn the air up higher and higher each time!!
Then I called into Metac and one of the instructors helped me out properly straight away!

crock!

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I wouldn't be too dependant on riello tech. I rang them once about a new warmflow I was commissioning giving very high CO. they told me to turn the air up higher and higher each time!!
Then I called into Metac and one of the instructors helped me out properly straight away!

what was the problem with warm flow?

jimf

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I wouldn't be too dependant on riello tech. I rang them once about a new warmflow I was commissioning giving very high CO. they told me to turn the air up higher and higher each time!!
Then I called into Metac and one of the instructors helped me out properly straight away!

and this would be a he boiler I bet

Dtp1979

crock! wrote: »

what was the problem with warm flow?

They nearly always pump out high CO. I was told to turn the air way down to fix it. I walked away pessimistic thinking that turning the air down should CAUSE CO. but I was wrong!!
And when I say turn it down I mean right down to 1- 2

shane0007

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Then I called into Metac and one of the instructors helped me out properly straight away!

I wonder who did that! Hmmm....

jimf

I haven't commissioned many he warmflows but any I have had the same issue

shane0007

It's the extremely short combustion chamber.
Manufacturers do not set the air damper settings on burners, Riello do it in Italy.

spireland32

Kero or diesel?

shane0007

C2

scudo2

jimf wrote: »

I haven't commissioned many he warmflows but any I have had the same issue

WARMFLOW = air to high, nozzle to big, co through the roof,not enough space between baffles as they block up to easy, rubber gasket on secondry heat exchanger perish leaking moisture onto burner due to drain point been on cleaning door plate rather than been lower on heat exchanger, bad dual stat with tiny reset button, dual stat probes in outside of boiler rather than been in tube in water.

Good points = fluency temp. sensor

and I like the colour green

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

WARMFLOW = air to high, nozzle to big, co through the roof,not enough space between baffles as they block up to easy, rubber gasket on secondry heat exchanger perish leaking moisture onto burner due to drain point been on cleaning door plate rather than been lower on heat exchanger, bad dual stat with tiny reset button, dual stat probes in outside of boiler rather than been in tube in water.

Good points = fluency temp. sensor

and I like the colour green

bet you bought one and don't like the colour go on admit it

corkgsxr

scudo2 wrote: »

WARMFLOW = air to high, nozzle to big, co through the roof,not enough space between baffles as they block up to easy, rubber gasket on secondry heat exchanger perish leaking moisture onto burner due to drain point been on cleaning door plate rather than been lower on heat exchanger, bad dual stat with tiny reset button, dual stat probes in outside of boiler rather than been in tube in water.

Good points = fluency temp. sensor

and I like the colour green

Do grant not have the stats on the outside too?

scudo2

corkgsxr wrote: »

Do grant not have the stats on the outside too?

I forgot that. Good one.
Now Grant get a bad mark also one for great designed of baffles but sometines c curse to get out as their to tight.

One trick is drop the water pressure if a sealed system.

shane0007

Nothing wrong with dry socket stat probes, in fact they are better. Wet pocket stats get crud all over them from dirty systems & give more issues.
Baffles are better too as they are tighter to give better efficiency & you will rarely find a buckled one. I never have an issue with removing them but there is a knack to it. A large long screwdriver is all that is needed to remove them & also to replace them.

.jacksparrow.

Shane, did the customer have the same problem this morning?

shane0007

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Shane, did the customer have the same problem this morning?

No, it never happens on a day with a T in it!
Only kidding.
I spoke to Riello & they reckon a priest is indeed required. The suspect the pump. There is no 3 minute control in the control box.

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with dry socket stat probes, in fact they are better. Wet pocket stats get crud all over them from dirty systems & give more issues.
Baffles are better too as they are tighter to give better efficiency & you will rarely find a buckled one. I never have an issue with removing them but there is a knack to it. A large long screwdriver is all that is needed to remove them & also to replace them.

WOW ! Thanks for the info. / tip on the screwdriver. Does it have to be a special one calrabrated for Grant or will anyone do the job. Your the best .

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

WOW ! Thanks for the info. / tip on the screwdriver. Does it have to be a special one calrabrated for Grant or will anyone do the job. Your the best .

Nice....

Dtp1979

Recliner chair, beer and popcorn. Ok lads off ye go!

gifted

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Recliner chair, beer and popcorn. Ok lads off ye go!

Push over there and pass the bottle opener...have you tried the hot dogs around here?..:D

Dtp1979

gifted wrote: »

Push over there and pass the bottle opener...have you tried the hot dogs around here?..:D

No but I heard they were great

shane0007

Sometimes it's better to keep silent than to tell others around you exactly how you feel because it hurts badly when you know in your heart that they can hear your words but they cannot understand....

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Sometimes it's better to keep silent than to tell others around you exactly how you feel because it hurts badly when you know in your heart that they can hear your words but they cannot understand....

"The pen (or texts) are more powerfully than the sword"






+ a sense of humour !




Pass the popcorn please,
who's kicking off this time ? !!!!

jimf

shane0007 wrote: »

No, it never happens on a day with a T in it!
Only kidding.
I spoke to Riello & they reckon a priest is indeed required. The suspect the pump. There is no 3 minute control in the control box.

whats your own view on this shane for what its worth this is mine

if this was a pump issue I would be expecting the lockouts to be a lot more erratic than first cycle each day and after 3min run this means the pump would have to be failing in the run mode and I don't know about you but I have yet to come across a pump failing this way

scudo2

jimf wrote: »

whats your own view on this shane for what its worth this is mine

if this was a pump issue I would be expecting the lockouts to be a lot more erratic than first cycle each day and after 3min run this means the pump would have to be failing in the run mode and I don't know about you but I have yet to come across a pump failing this way

Its not the pump, for pumps sake.!