Anyone with Solar PV ?

My partners parents generated in just under a year 11,000 kWh with a 13 kwp setup, I don't think that was bad, but he said it was a bad year for sun in their part of Germany.

As I said just 500 watts being generated has the potential to generate 3kwh in winter per day and 7 kWh per day in summer just form 500 watts, add to that a 1 kw wind turbine and you could find yourself outputting far more than you'll ever consume.

Question though how many kWh installed will give you 500 watts on even a cloudy day. ?

There are so many variables but still solar has good potential and outputting the excess to the grid earns you some money.

freddyuk

It is not kWh but kw installed. So 5kw installed will give you at full chat maybe 4.8kw mean. The problem is a cloudy day can be cloudy bright or cloudy dark and it is the amount of light getting through that counts. I would be disappointed if on the worst possible Irish dank dark day I was not getting 200-300w from 5kw. On a bright cloudy day that goes up of course to maybe 800 - 1kw. It is very subjective unless you measure the actual light level in w/m2.
I have a light meter but not the sophisticated data logging to correlate that information sadly.
Where you array is sited will have an affect too.

No I meant 500 watts generated from whatever kwp is installed.

What people need to concern themselves about mainly is the output for a year not the output on a few cloudy days, there are bright days too. And we got very long summer days.

If I had the space a turbine and solar would be best but wind turbine installations are outrageously expensive in Ireland. Though the output could be far greater.

You got to think long term.

freddyuk

Quote: Question though how many kWh installed will give you 500 watts on even a cloudy day. ?
Unquote.

This was your question???

I gave you an answer to that question...... and I corrected your terminology. If you give out the incorrect terminology you may be confusing the issue for people who are trying to learn how the solar works. I hope I have clarified a little bit.

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

Quote: Question though how many kWh installed will give you 500 watts on even a cloudy day. ?
Unquote.

This was your question???

I gave you an answer to that question...... and I corrected your terminology. If you give out the incorrect terminology you may be confusing the issue for people who are trying to learn how the solar works. I hope I have clarified a little bit.

No you're right Freddy, I was confusing myself.

Still up to 1 kw on a cloudy day isn't bad, that's about 5-7 kWh a day, but it's the mix of cloud, sun and daylight over the year that matters.

It will be interesting to get your first years report so keep us posted.

Actually have you any data for say, yesterday ?

freddyuk

3kWh according to my wife. Also done 3 today so far but there has been a little brightness earlier.

That's not back at all, that's half my daily average, perhaps you'll get another kWh.

Be interesting what's generated in the year.

Best of luck with it anyway.

ted1

Stoner wrote: »

ted1 have you installed any in domestic applications, if so have you a link to the kit you used?

I'd prefer the heat pipe system myself, but a small PV system to drive the pump might be something that was cost effective if it could be run from a battery charged by PV, but once again i don't think this should be cost effective, but I'd rather use the power then sell it back and buy it back at a much higher rate.

No, not personally but I have studied installations and seen whats involved.
I'm just about finished a MSc in energy management solar was one of the modules we took.

Sorry Freddy, I mixed you up with peter who got his solar installed 2 weeks ago.

http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/cmaps/eu_cmsaf_opt/G_opt_IE.pdf

The site above calculated that a 1 kwp system installed in Ireland generate 900 kwh a year. So a 3 kwp would generate 27 kwh. My yearly needs are around 2372 kwh.

A 5 kwp system should generate around 4500 kwh, though this would be almost twice what I use/

What if I output the excess to the grid ? you see isn't the feed-in-tariff only 9c/kwh ?

So that means I am giving the ESB cheap energy for half what they charge me for it ?

If I had an electric car for instance I would send to the grid during the day, the excess, and buy back at night for about 9c/kwh which is about what they would pay me for the excess. So in that sense I would benefit a lot more. meaning it costs me nothing for what I buy back.

The ESB becomes your gigantic cheap battery.

So how would it fair out if you are not on night rate, ?

Doesn't that mean that what you generate in excess during the day you got to buy back for 9c/kwh ? so you loose, but it's better than nothing.

peter65

The biggest problems I found were
1) workmanship. Cowboys will just sit the tiles back onto the cables and frame brackets. I found only one firm who cut out the grove from the back of the tile just to make it fit back naturally. Sounds a simple thing to do but multiple it by 50/60 tiles and it adds on a day immediately. The firm I used took four days to fit and the owner had to come back as he wouldn't commission until he got a sunny day.
2) over estimated potential kwh that my system would produce - a bit of honest goes a long way and being told it'll produce x amount of kwh when the calculations shows that it physically can't really pissed me off. A lot of companies send sales people instead of installation men to potential costumers and that's a big mistake in HMO
3) quality of the frame- again less brackets = quicker installation time = more profit. Mine were fixed every 2nd rafter because of my exposed location. One company believed every 4th rafter would suffice.
4) quality of the inverter - this is the biggie. Get this wrong and the best system in the world will suffer

The panels didn't really bother me as a bit of research shows up the poor makes quite quickly. Companies were declaring that one day was enough to fit, install and commission my system. In this time of year thats max 7 hrs of daylight. Well I have seen the one day installation jobs and OMG.

My excess goes back at 5.5p not great but the firm installed a system that diverts the excess to my Emersion to heat my water. Works out a lot better.

I get 17.4 for each unit I produce. If i use every unit, I save another 14.4p that I would pay PowerNI. So I'm looking at about a 32p saving if I don't export to the grid.

I don't know a whole pile about these systems, but I know enough about what to avoid if that makes sense

peter65

I also have the a solar panel and wood pellet combo system which is now 7 years old and my fuel bill for 600L of hot water with underfloor heating is between 1100 - 1200 yearly. In 2006/7 my fuel bill on oil for 300L HW and heating was £2045. It's true, in winter their not doing much but I found that from about May onwards I can just heat the tank at 7am for 30 min and the panels will keep it topped up all day eeven if heating is needed

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/cmaps/eu_cmsaf_opt/G_opt_IE.pdf

The site above calculated that a 1 kwp system installed in Ireland generate 900 kwh a year. So a 3 kwp would generate 27 kwh. My yearly needs are around 2372 kwh.

A 5 kwp system should generate around 4500 kwh, though this would be almost twice what I use/

What if I output the excess to the grid ? you see isn't the feed-in-tariff only 9c/kwh ?

So that means I am giving the ESB cheap energy for half what they charge me for it ?

If I had an electric car for instance I would send to the grid during the day, the excess, and buy back at night for about 9c/kwh which is about what they would pay me for the excess. So in that sense I would benefit a lot more. meaning it costs me nothing for what I buy back.

The ESB becomes your gigantic cheap battery.

So how would it fair out if you are not on night rate, ?

Doesn't that mean that what you generate in excess during the day you got to buy back for 9c/kwh ? so you loose, but it's better than nothing.

The max they will buy is 3000 kwh @ 9c.
That's 270 euro a year.

What's the true life span costs of PV, including the cost of upfront payment, maintenance, repair etc? What's the actual life span?
What's the real efficiency of PV?
What's your baseload, regardless of your yearly consumption, you need to see when your using it Vs when PV is at its best? You'll find you still need to import.

Why export at 9c and pay more per kwh? Why not dump it into a storage heater in the winter and into the immersion during the summer.

I've looked at studies and PV or micro wind in Ireland doesn't make economic sense, hence why it's not really promoted.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

The max they will buy is 3000 kwh @ 9c.
That's 270 euro a year.

Wow ? is this for real ? this kind of makes the whole think pointless.

So in other words, they are ripping people off ? if they don't have to import oil and the person takes on all the installation of solar they turn around and have the cheek to offer an offensive half the price.

So if a 3kwp can provide just about my needs, it's hard to know how much of that I could actually use and how much i would have to pay if i'm giving them more for free.

ted1 wrote: »

What's the true life span costs of PV, including the cost of upfront payment, maintenance, repair etc? What's the actual life span?
What's the real efficiency of PV?
What's your baseload, regardless of your yearly consumption, you need to see when your using it Vs when PV is at its best? You'll find you still need to import.

The best panels today are up to 40% for commercial use but you and I get the 17% or so efficient, then there are losses in the inverter. However if it;s cheap enough it's not such an issue.

The system is maintenance free.

ted1 wrote: »

Why export at 9c and pay more per kwh? Why not dump it into a storage heater in the winter and into the immersion during the summer.

Yeah that would make more sense however in the winter you generate a lot less when you need more so not really something you can do, this is where a wind turbine would be better.

ted1 wrote: »

I've looked at studies and PV or micro wind in Ireland doesn't make economic sense, hence why it's not really promoted.

It's looking less likely, but it just seems really typical that the ESB can buy the electricity for half the price we pay for it if they don't have to generate it or pay for gas/oil etc.

There's no way in hell i'll export to them for free after my 3000 kwh would be used.

Renewable has a lot of potential in Ireland even solar not to mention helping to create jobs, and keeping some money in the country after the fact most of the materials come from outside the country.

They will pay full rate for commercial wind farm owners and screw the little guy, worst thing is we have to subsidise these wind farms and get nothing in return.

peter65

peter65 wrote: »

2) over estimated potential kwh that my system would produce - a bit of honest goes a long way and being told it'll produce x amount of kwh when the calculations shows that it physically can't really pissed me off.

How much were you told you'd generate per year ?

You only have the system recently installed so isn't it too early to know ?

IS what you were told you'd generate anything like the figures i posted above ?

freddyuk

peter65 wrote: »

The biggest problems I found were
1) workmanship. Cowboys will just sit the tiles back onto the cables and frame brackets. I found only one firm who cut out the grove from the back of the tile just to make it fit back naturally. Sounds a simple thing to do but multiple it by 50/60 tiles and it adds on a day immediately. The firm I used took four days to fit and the owner had to come back as he wouldn't commission until he got a sunny day.
2) over estimated potential kwh that my system would produce - a bit of honest goes a long way and being told it'll produce x amount of kwh when the calculations shows that it physically can't really pissed me off. A lot of companies send sales people instead of installation men to potential costumers and that's a big mistake in HMO
3) quality of the frame- again less brackets = quicker installation time = more profit. Mine were fixed every 2nd rafter because of my exposed location. One company believed every 4th rafter would suffice.
4) quality of the inverter - this is the biggie. Get this wrong and the best system in the world will suffer

The panels didn't really bother me as a bit of research shows up the poor makes quite quickly. Companies were declaring that one day was enough to fit, install and commission my system. In this time of year thats max 7 hrs of daylight. Well I have seen the one day installation jobs and OMG.

My excess goes back at 5.5p not great but the firm installed a system that diverts the excess to my Emersion to heat my water. Works out a lot better.

I get 17.4 for each unit I produce. If i use every unit, I save another 14.4p that I would pay PowerNI. So I'm looking at about a 32p saving if I don't export to the grid.

I don't know a whole pile about these systems, but I know enough about what to avoid if that makes sense

The MCS issue comprehensive guidelines for installing PV and any installer should be registered. I think that covers NI also. If the installer is not registered walk away. Saying that under the UK MCS scheme you can have one registered installer and sub contract 100 installers under you who are not registered thus you sign the certificates and the monkeys do a terrible job of installing. That is a farce. These are the ones employing salesman most often. If you ask to see previous jobs done by the firm then that is your best guarantee. There is no excuse for having a bad install. Do your homework.
Cutting nibs of the most common tiles takes a minute or two. A 5kw system will need about 36 fixings but manufacturers give the specifications. That will be a couple of hours to nib the tiles. Even handing them down to the ground. Taking the grinder up to the roof will cut the time down. Really this is not difficult to do. It is just easier not to do it if you really don't care.
All cables should be secured to the rails and not touching the roof to avoid chaffing in the wind. It takes a bit of time and scraped knuckles but it is worth doing.
No reason not to commission a system unless the weather is so dark the inverter will not fire up. You should have tested the panels already on the ground. Do the math and confirm everything is connected correctly by the output achieved. Again not difficult.

There are approved (and legally required in UK) standards for calculation. Use this to confirm the estimated output.
Salesman are there to sell on commission they will not be around in a year to face the consequences. Only talk to an installer.
Fixings are required by the manufacturers specifications - minimum 1m spacing.
Inverters are not that different as they all have to comply but backup and warranty is more important as they are the second most expensive bit of the kit. You will need to replace at least once.
Panels are pretty hard to assess without detailed knowledge so not sure how you assume this. Good suppliers will offer the panel test results but 99% of customers will never ever know or ask.
Your cash benefits are way above current English but you should not invest solely on cash benefits now the best deals have gone. Consider how you change your usage patterns to make best use of the free power and only export what you cannot use.
If you have a fully proportional immersion controller then you will have paid a lot of money for that so that needs to be included in the payback.
The most difficult part of a solar install is the design. Most companies these days use an online designer tool and have no clue about how the system works or how little issues affect the total output. One TV aeriel can wreck output calculations.
And don't dismiss a small business as these are often much better than the nationwide operators. Each job to a small business is a bridge to the next one.

ted1

In fairness commercial night rate can be as low as 4.7c so there buying it for less. All of a sudden your price if 9c is fairly expensive to them.
The words maintenance free scares me. Love to see what a few years if bird poop, hail stones, string winds, etc do to a panel.

https://www.electricireland.ie/ei/residential/price-plans/micro-generation-scheme.jsp

Even if the commercial night rate is less they will be buying a lot more than 3000 kwh. so that is completely out of balance.

peter65

I agree with Freddie about the smaller company. In The end the smallest firm provided the best product and service. The immersun controller allows me to run two units from the excess power (eg an Emersion or a storage heater). I can alternate between which I want as the primary unit. At the minute I have it set to the storage heater. The firm included it in their price. The design was critical because of my location. all manufactures have minimum requirements but every site is different. The minimum standards are usually set for ideal locations and conditions.

peter65

peter65 wrote: »

I agree with Freddie about the smaller company. In The end the smallest firm provided the best product and service. The immersun controller allows me to run two units from the excess power (eg an Emersion or a storage heater). I can alternate between which I want as the primary unit. At the minute I have it set to the storage heater. The firm included it in their price. The design was critical because of my location. all manufactures have minimum requirements but every site is different. The minimum standards are usually set for ideal locations and conditions.

Diversion to storage heating is fine but you'd have to generate a lot during the day to supply the storage heating, but I guess the point is using whatever you generate yourself.

freddyuk

Use everything on site. Don't worry about cash benefit. It will be gone soon. Solar panels will last 30 -40 years with small reduction in performance. If you absolutely cannot use it then dump into storage heater (as you would normally be buying this cheap anyway). Design a system to cover your base load if you have the room for the average dull day. Then when the sun comes out do the washing, then the ironing (not you of course) and hoovering and the baking in turn so as to maximise the benefit of free power. It gets quite interesting and you will adjust your lifestyle accordingly and save cash. You will never be off grid entirely as nightime usage will be required plus the bad days. If we get some good battery technology coming along then storage will be a real option for nightime.
If we are wrong electricity prices will fall because we are fracking all over the countryside and this will mean cheap power for all. Me being a cynic will use cheap PV equipment now to invest for the future. You may want to buy two inverters now as unlikely one will last 30-40 years.
It is not the best purely economic solution right now but you can gamble and see if PV gets cheaper as the economy recovers.
Think of it this way - if you could buy your electricity now for the next 30 years inflation free would you do it? Mmmm... let me think about that.

Electric cars will play their part to store solar and wind in the future, it's already being done in Japan. Of course you'll need to have one car home charging in order to benefit.

I really think a wind hybrid system in Ireland would be best, maybe a 3kw wind turbine could generate more than a 8 kwp solar setup ?

There are a lot of dodgy wind turbines not designed for out strong winds but I beleive kestrel are one of the best and even produce power in storms where others have to be turned off.

certainly on a night like tonight there is buckets of energy that could be dumped into storage heaters.

Wind turbines though are insanely expensive to install in Ireland a 5 kw turbine can cost 20,000 of course because it has the greatest potential.

Of course there has to be a pay back period for all of this to start to benefit.

ted1

The problem with relying on a EV to use energy from PV at home is that few people have their car at home during the day. Most use their vehicle to commute.

Small scale wind just isn't a viable option.

Total annual solar insolation ireland - 900-1200 kwh/m2

100w panel = approx 0.5m2

450 - 600k kwh total to be captured

Panel efficiency 12-14% say 14%

63 - 80kwh per year


Orientated perpendicular to the sun (ideal conditions such a solar tracker) max harvest.

Factor shading, wiring losses, inverter losses, dirt loses,

Sir Liamalot

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Total annual solar insolation ireland - 900-1200 kwh/m2

100w panel = approx 0.5m2

450 - 600k kwh total to be captured

Panel efficiency 12-14% say 14%

63 - 80kwh per year


Orientated perpendicular to the sun (ideal conditions such a solar tracker) max harvest.

Factor shading, wiring losses, inverter losses, dirt loses,

I just calculated above that a 3kwp solar system can generate over 2700 kwh in Ireland which is probably a safe estimation in those calculators. This is around 400 kwh more than I need. This is not including any fancy solar tracking.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

The problem with relying on a EV to use energy from PV at home is that few people have their car at home during the day. Most use their vehicle to commute.

Small scale wind just isn't a viable option.

Yes but the idea is you need to plug in again to charge up !

Work place charging etc, not going to happen as the E.U are not serious about electrics. Which isn't the debate here but spent batteries can also play an important role in storing energy in the not so distant future.

Wind isn't a viable option ? I take it you mean financially ?

If it costs 15-20k to install a 5kw wind turbine and you install storage heaters, this could seriously save you a lot of money over 15-20 years. Add to that an electric car. etc.

Though the esb seemingly pay you for only 3000 kwh after which you probably give them any excess for free, which I would not. I'd dump it into a giant element in the ground first before I'd give them anything free.

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

Wind isn't a viable option ? I take it you mean financially ?

I have yet to see a convincing argument for micro generation with a wind turbine. Most people that can afford the capital cost agree with me which is why there are so few small privately owned wind turbines.

If it costs 15-20k to install a 5kw wind turbine and you install storage heaters, this could seriously save you a lot of money over 15-20 years.

€15-20k + maintenance costs! :eek:

I spend a total of €900 a year on gas & electricity. I would expect €15,000 to cover all of my energy needs for more than the next 10 years.

Add to that an electric car. etc.

Few people believe that electric cars will become mainstream for at least 5 to 10 years. Even if that is not the case the real costs associated with electric cars are the capital cost and the maintenance, not the electricity.

I've no idea what the maintenance costs are.

But if one was to make even a 3kw wind turbine it's not rocket science, however the problem is I don't think you'd be allowed connect it yourself to the grid, obviously not. and I doubt they will install a diy turbine to the grid either even though it's not connected directly there will most likely be some clause there to prevent cheaper installs to prevent people connecting to the grid which the ESB clearly do not want.

It all comes down to storage really ?

having 6.5 kwh daily requirements isn't a huge amount of leccy but to store that is difficult and expensive.

If you talk a good battery storage technology, LiFeP04 lithium not Lead acid, 6.5 kwh would be 48V x 150 ah for 7.2 kwh storage. At today's costs that's going to cost about 10K euro's.

The thing as with all batteries though is you need more than your requirements to reduce cycling about 30% is ok for LiFeP04 compared to 60% or more with lead acid. Meaning you have to greatly over size lead acid battery size.

the ting is though, if you can generate on the fly and use the battery and inverter to smooth out the imbalance you might get away with having half your daily needs. Though you then have to think about days where wind and solar generation are low.

But battery is obviously more important for solar as you got 0 night time generation.

Electric cars won't be mainstream as long as petrol and diesel is affordable and people are willing to throw money into the tank. Range is an issue but you don't need a 500 mile range ice, if I look at the crv it's got about 300 mile range on a tank which 100 would do me fine if I can pull into a garage and fill up in 5 mins, there is no need for a huge expensive battery.

Even if the main cost of an ev is the purchase cost, price for price it's still in or around as cheap as a golf, 20,990 starting price but in around 25k is the one to get, anyway a car that gets 45 mpg will save 15,500€ over 100,000 miles, maintenance is 0 apart from inspections. Maybe fluid changes are required after that. That's not including any savings over motor tax.

Depreciation is holding very well and up to the golf standards and above the likes of the Astra/french cars (based on the Irish market) So if you're buying a car for the same money you're going to save over the ice. If I were to drive the crv 100,000 miles then I'd save 23,487 almost the entire value of a Nissan Leaf. + the difference in motor tax which is 120 a year v 710.

Going by a Seattle leaf that just turned 100,000 miles, the battery has lost about 20% capacity but I think he leased so it's of no concern to him.

100,000 miles is 8 years driving for the average Irish motorist.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but the idea is you need to plug in again to charge up !

Work place charging etc, not going to happen as the E.U are not serious about electrics. Which isn't the debate here but spent batteries can also play an important role in storing energy in the not so distant future.

You were talking about being able to charge you car and that wind would generate most your annual needs. I was highlighting the fact that your car will not be available to charge when the PV is generating as its during the day. and that unless your using your energy when PV is generating you'll still need to import.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wind isn't a viable option ? I take it you mean financially ?

finance is the bottom line and its simple not viable

Deleted User wrote: »

If it costs 15-20k to install a 5kw wind turbine and you install storage heaters, this could seriously save you a lot of money over 15-20 years. Add to that an electric car. etc.

Though the esb seemingly pay you for only 3000 kwh after which you probably give them any excess for free, which I would not. I'd dump it into a giant element in the ground first before I'd give them anything free.

15-20K +maintenance and you still have not got enough energy, you'll still be importing and paying standing charges etc.

I don't pay over 1,000 a year in electricity so i'd lose money. also if you take in the cost of the 20k up front price. it works out even more expensive.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

But if one was to make even a 3kw wind turbine it's not rocket science, however the problem is I don't think you'd be allowed connect it yourself to the grid, obviously not. and I doubt they will install a diy turbine to the grid either even though it's not connected directly there will most likely be some clause there to prevent cheaper installs to prevent people connecting to the grid which the ESB clearly do not want.

its the invertor that is grid rate, you can connect what you want, simply fill in a form and connect it yourself
http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/generator-connections/micro_gen_connections.jsp

http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/commercial-downloads/NC6.pdf

Deleted User wrote: »

It all comes down to storage really ?

having 6.5 kwh daily requirements isn't a huge amount of leccy but to store that is difficult and expensive.

If you talk a good battery storage technology, LiFeP04 lithium not Lead acid, 6.5 kwh would be 48V x 150 ah for 7.2 kwh storage. At today's costs that's going to cost about 10K euro's.

you can't store electricity in a battery, you lose to much

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing as with all batteries though is you need more than your requirements to reduce cycling about 30% is ok for LiFeP04 compared to 60% or more with lead acid. Meaning you have to greatly over size lead acid battery size.

the ting is though, if you can generate on the fly and use the battery and inverter to smooth out the imbalance you might get away with having half your daily needs. Though you then have to think about days where wind and solar generation are low.

But battery is obviously more important for solar as you got 0 night time generation.

Electric cars won't be mainstream as long as petrol and diesel is affordable and people are willing to throw money into the tank. Range is an issue but you don't need a 500 mile range ice, if I look at the crv it's got about 300 mile range on a tank which 100 would do me fine if I can pull into a garage and fill up in 5 mins, there is no need for a huge expensive battery.

Even if the main cost of an ev is the purchase cost, price for price it's still in or around as cheap as a golf, 20,990 starting price but in around 25k is the one to get, anyway a car that gets 45 mpg will save 15,500€ over 100,000 miles, maintenance is 0 apart from inspections. Maybe fluid changes are required after that. That's not including any savings over motor tax.

Depreciation is holding very well and up to the golf standards and above the likes of the Astra/french cars (based on the Irish market) So if you're buying a car for the same money you're going to save over the ice. If I were to drive the crv 100,000 miles then I'd save 23,487 almost the entire value of a Nissan Leaf. + the difference in motor tax which is 120 a year v 710.

Going by a Seattle leaf that just turned 100,000 miles, the battery has lost about 20% capacity but I think he leased so it's of no concern to him.

100,000 miles is 8 years driving for the average Irish motorist.

untill EV have a range of 500km they will not catch on.
how much did the lease on the battery cost? leasing a battery kind of defeats the purpose, renault charge something like 70 euro a month.