Anyone with Solar PV ?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

You were talking about being able to charge you car and that wind would generate most your annual needs. I was highlighting the fact that your car will not be available to charge when the PV is generating as its during the day. and that unless your using your energy when PV is generating you'll still need to import.

No I mean the idea is that you export to the esb and buy back on night rate, but since the ESB only pay you for 3000 kwh that's pointless because doing 20,000 miles a year in a leaf would cost an average of 6,000 kwh per year costing 540 Euro's on night leccy or half if you charge at public points that are free.

I would 10 kwP for to generate enough power for 20K miles a year and to supply the house, it can be done as the calculators show. It's a lot of solar but it can't be done if the ESB only pay you for 3000 KWH.

But if you were doing it to save over petrol and diesel you'd be saving a lot of money however would you do your calculations based on petrol/diesel or night rate leccy ?

In other words it certainly wouldn't be financially viable to spend 15-20 k on a wind turbine to save 1000 a year in leccy, (for EV and house) but it would save 3-5 K a year over petrol and diesel depending what your mpg is. at that rate it would pay back itself in 5-6 years. But you can only go by the 540 euro's. of leccy not the saving sover petrol/diesel.

Is this making sense ?

ted1 wrote: »

finance is the bottom line and its simple not viable.


15-20K +maintenance and you still have not got enough energy, you'll still be importing and paying standing charges etc.

I don't pay over 1,000 a year in electricity so i'd lose money. also if you take in the cost of the 20k up front price. it works out even more expensive.

Yeah this is true, if it were a case that you'd save over petrol and diesel charging an ev from that point of view you'd get a pay back in no time but you'd have to base the costs on the leccy to charge not the fuel.

Solar would be a much more viable option if the ESB weren't so anti micro generation, the'd rather import foreign oil/ gas than pay ordinary people for electricity generation that they pay to install.

If they paid you for (all) the electricity you export it would be much more viable.

Isn't there also a 5kw limit to send to the grid of have I got that wrong ?

Is there any useful info on grid tie ?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

its the invertor that is grid rate, you can connect what you want, simply fill in a form and connect it yourself

In theory you can once the inverter is to specifications, the ESB would be getting free excess power.

The only reason you'd need to do this is to have a stable supply having no batteries.

ted1 wrote: »

you can't store electricity in a battery, you lose to much

Yes, but if you can install it yourself which isn't that difficult and you can get a mast built up and get help installing it yourself. And if you can make a reasonably powerful turbine that is cheap but useful then efficiency isn't a huge issue.

ted1 wrote: »

untill EV have a range of 500km they will not catch on.
how much did the lease on the battery cost? leasing a battery kind of defeats the purpose, renault charge something like 70 euro a month.

Our crv does 300 miles to a tank, 150 miles would still do us. ICE cars don't need all that range if you can fill up and be in and out of a garage in 10 mins.

It won't be that long before chargers can replace 80% in 10 mins. The Tesla model S can replace 200 miles in 30 mins, or much less maybe you only need a top up to go another 20 miles.

most ev charging will be done at night when you;re asleep anyway.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

Solar would be a much more viable option if the ESB weren't so anti micro generation, the'd rather import foreign oil/ gas than pay ordinary people for electricity generation that they pay to install.

If they paid you for (all) the electricity you export it would be much more viable.

Isn't there also a 5kw limit to send to the grid of have I got that wrong ?

Is there any useful info on grid tie ?

there not anti it, there just not going to subsidize you. and load other peoples bill. as stated earlier why should they buy it of you at 9c when they can get it cheaper elsewhere.

its a 5.75kw limit (really its 25A) at single phase and 16A at three phase 23-/400V

this is do with there definition of micro generation, you can export more, but getting a connection isn't as easy.

if you bothered to look at any of the links i posted you'll see useful info on grid tie in.
The spec for an invertor in Ireland is EN50438 look that up and you'll get more info

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

The only reason you'd need to do this is to have a stable supply having no batteries.

No batteries and reliable power supply.
That is one hell of a good reason!

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

most ev charging will be done at night when you;re asleep anyway.

this thread is about Solar PV. which also sleeps at night.

FYI Wind is also solar, its the result of air being heated unevenly by the sun.

Right we'll leave the EV debate out .

Ted, I'm reading the links now thanks.

2011

2011 wrote: »

No batteries and reliable power supply.
That is one hell of a good reason!

Not lead acid, but LiFeP04 is a good battery for storage, in fact there are other batteries that are perfectly suitable it just cost.

@19C/kwh

Ok that was a lot of reading in the links ted, but I found that the max allowed is 5-6 kw to the grid which is not a lot considering in Germany my partners parents have 13 kwP going to the grid.

Anyway I found this information , http://turbotricity.com/product/wind-turbines/grants/

"Normally electricity from commercial wind farms is sold to the grid at a price of between 6 and 7.5c per KwHr (unit). However, ESB has agreed a purchase price from domestic producers of 9c per unit (variable, with the price to be set each year). In addition, there is a further subsidy of 10c per unit for the first 3,000 units per year, bringing the maximum purchase price to 19c per unit.

Considering that a high percentage of electricity sold to the grid will be during off-peak times (when the house is not using its own electricity) this price mechanism is a strong support mechanism which encourages households to install modest wind turbines.

Should you wish to install a larger turbine than our 2.5kw model, you need to bear in mind that most of the additional electricity exported will only receive the 9c per unit rate."

So the gist is the ESB pay you 19 c/kwh for the first 3000 KWH and 9c after, (and there isn't a cut off after 3000 kwh )

So going by that if you have an E.V after the 3000 kwh you get the same for the excess as you pay on night rate to charge.

Or you get 19c/kwh for the first 3000 kwh and 9c for every kwh after and buy back at 18C.

So if my consumption is around 2300 KWH and I get 19C per KWH for 3000 in excess this means I can install a 5kwp system I should generate 4500 kwh per year, that would be 4500-2300 (house usage) 2200 kwh in excess @19C/kwh =418 a year.

So wouldn't that mean I get 418 a year for the excess and save a further 437 from not having to pay for the house usage ? =855 a year off the install of the solar ?

Maybe my maths is wrong ?

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

Not lead acid, but LiFeP04 is a good battery for storage, in fact there are other batteries that are perfectly suitable it just cost.

I know but you won't find many people that want to buy large expensive batteries and store them in their home.

2011

2011 wrote: »

I know but you won't find many people that want to buy large expensive batteries and store them in their home.

No not everyone could store them, but as they get better and cheaper it will open up new options.

whizbang

So wouldn't that mean I get 418 a year for the excess and save a further 437 from not having to pay for the house usage ? =855 a year off the install of the solar ?

The reality is you won't be able to use the 2300kwh at home when its available.
Peak usage is at peak times! In winter, it is not coincidence that its dark at peak usage times.
You can program the washing for daytime, but are you going to do without a shower, after a few days of heavy cloud?

So even at best, €15000/855year = 17.5 years payback. Sorry, but not enough.

whizbang

whizbang wrote: »

The reality is you won't be able to use the 2300kwh at home when its available.
Peak usage is at peak times! In winter, it is not coincidence that its dark at peak usage times.
You can program the washing for daytime, but are you going to do without a shower, after a few days of heavy cloud?

So even at best, €15000/855year = 17.5 years payback. Sorry, but not enough.

No, am I missing something ? the point being the ESb becomes your gigantic cheap battery. You get 19 c/kwh for the first 3000 kwh and 9c/kwh after.

So if you get a solar system installed it's going to be cheaper than wind.

My head hurts now !

whizbang

No sorry, I am the one missing your point.

the ESB connection appears to be the ideal cheap battery..

So instead of a bill, you get a cheque?

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

...You get 19 c/kwh ......

Not any more - you get just 9c per unit

freddyuk

A few points to mention which are relevant:

1. Any connection the the grid has to be signed off by an approved electrician and that connection form has to be sent to the ESB.You cannot do it all yourself.
2. EN50438 is the basic Inverter certification but Ireland has specific requirements over and above this standard. Certificates confirming full compliance are required.
3. Any exported power is not taken back by ESB it has to be used locally immediately. If you have several large generators in one place then the export cannot always be used and the grid may be compromised so the generated power has to stay on site. You may not get permission to make a substantial grid connection if there is a remote location. No export , no money. You may then need to think about battery storage and good control to ensure only generated power is used most efficiently.
4. LiPo batteries are very expensive and not necessarily the best option for off grid storage. If you discharge too far they will be dead. For most off grid work where batteries are stored outside basic wet lead acid are preferred but need servicing and some knowledge. For maintenance free service Sealed batteries are better but more expensive.
All batteries need careful charging to maximise service life.

Batteries are expensive compared to existing on grid costs but the grid is a service with standing charges thus costs will be rising each year. Batteries are a product subject to new technology and competitive market forces so price per AH stored are going to come down.
For a well balanced fully off grid system a hybrid system is clearly the best option to provide the best input of energy for the least capital outlay. If you run out of power then a generator will be needed to cover the shortfall running off bio fuel maybe. This will cover the daily essentials and the washing can wait for another day.

whizbang

whizbang wrote: »

No sorry, I am the one missing your point.

the ESB connection appears to be the ideal cheap battery..

So instead of a bill, you get a cheque?

Most likely if you're in the + but I don't think anyone in Ireland will be allowed to profit from it and the maximum allowable input to the Grid is about 5kw so that's obvious that the ESB is not in favour of micro generation.

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

Not any more - you get just 9c per unit

It's 19c/Kwh for the first 3000 Kwh ? and 9c after no ?

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

It's 19c/Kwh for the first 3000 Kwh ? and 9c after no ?

No - its 9c (and you should think this is very good check out http://www.sem-o.com/ the ESB can purchase electric at around 6c/unit at midday )

see https://www.electricireland.ie/ei/residential/price-plans/micro-generation-scheme.jsp

Electric Ireland administers payment of both micro-generation payments i.e. 1. Electric Ireland micro-generation payment of (9 cent / kWh) has an expiry date of (31st December 2014) 2. The additional ESB Support payment of (10 cent per kWh), applies to the first 3,000 kWh exported annually. This payment will be made to the first 4,000 micro-generators connected in a 3 year period from (from 26th February 2009) and will be paid over a 5 year period.The 5 year period for the ESB Support payment (10 cent / kWh) will run from start date of original contract in the event that the contract transfers from one customer to another.

The additional 10c program is now closed

fclauson

see another thread where I have posted http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88128457&postcount=6

freddyuk

freddyuk wrote: »

A few points to mention which are relevant:

You may then need to think about battery storage and good control to ensure only generated power is used most efficiently.
4. LiPo batteries are very expensive and not necessarily the best option for off grid storage. If you discharge too far they will be dead. For most off grid work where batteries are stored outside basic wet lead acid are preferred but need servicing and some knowledge. For maintenance free service Sealed batteries are better but more expensive.
All batteries need careful charging to maximise service life.

Batteries are expensive compared to existing on grid costs but the grid is a service with standing charges thus costs will be rising each year. Batteries are a product subject to new technology and competitive market forces so price per AH stored are going to come down.
For a well balanced fully off grid system a hybrid system is clearly the best option to provide the best input of energy for the least capital outlay. If you run out of power then a generator will be needed to cover the shortfall running off bio fuel maybe. This will cover the daily essentials and the washing can wait for another day.

We know it's not allowed to connect to the grid but I was merely making the point that if using the correct equipment you could do it yourself.

Lead acid batteries/Gel etc are junk compared to modern Lithium batteries.

With lead acid you got about 100-300, 300 I would doubt, so in order to maximise longevity you got to use about 20-40% maximum of the available capacity. Meaning you got to buy far, far more than you need.

Say my daily average requirements are 6.5 Kwh per day then using lead acid I'd want about Min 12-18 kwh to reduce cycling of the lead acid batteries.

You Absolutely do not want to use LiPo as freddy mentioned, perhaps by mistake ? LiPo (can be) highly dangerous and (WILL) burn your house/shed down if neglected abused or for no reason at all.

LiPo batteries are those that RC enthusiasts use in their remote control plains, cars etc. though some also use much lower powered NiMh similar to your rechargeable AA batteries but the LiPo must never, ever be stored in any house, shed especially the amount required for renewable storage.

LiFeP04 is a far far safer chemistry and will not catch fire, it will smoke but it won't burn.

At 100% DOD or debt of discharge LiFeP04 can get between 2000-7000 cycles depending on each manufacturer, then you still got 70% capacity after. So your LiFeP04 could turn into 19 years usage at 100% DOD or using 70% capacity could easily translate to 30+ years. There are calender losses too though in a moderate climate like Ireland it should last a long time.

Though you need guarantees and you absolutely need to know the manufacturers data.

The downside about most lithium batteries is the absolute need for a BMS or battery management system which adds to the cost. But good ones are not that hard to find and may add only 100-300 Euro's to the cost.

A good average price currently is about 1000 Euro's per KWh of LiFeP04 so the cost of that and a wind turbine is prohibitive. It would take me about 50 years to get a payback from that at my current usage.

It's all rather depressing because if you were to add an EV onto that usage then it really gets depressing the costs to store that energy.

If you add up our need for energy it's a hell of a lot just for one house !

This is why the ESB should get serious and allow people to generate a lot more than 5 Kw into the grid. In Germany my partners parents are dumping 13 KWp in solar into the grid and it's working very well for them.

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

...
This is why the ESB should get serious and allow people to generate a lot more than 5 Kw into the grid. In Germany my partners parents are dumping 13 KWp in solar into the grid and it's working very well for them.

The network was never designed to have power pushed into it at the very far reaches of its extremities - it would take considerable re-engineering to permit this.

The ESB can purchase power at 3 to 7c - in Germany (and UK) many microgen contracts are written at 40c plus /unit which is utter madness and the generators are obliged to take it. Thus they are having to pass that cost onto the end user all for the sake of "green".

Here in Ireland its 9c - which I think is about right - its the same as the night time domestic purchase price

If as you are finding out you do a full return-on-investment then you have to generate just enough to cover you average consumption - push when you have a little excess and pull when you have demand.

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

No - its 9c (and you should think this is very good check out http://www.sem-o.com/ the ESB can purchase electric at around 6c/unit at midday )

see https://www.electricireland.ie/ei/residential/price-plans/micro-generation-scheme.jsp

Electric Ireland administers payment of both micro-generation payments i.e. 1. Electric Ireland micro-generation payment of (9 cent / kWh) has an expiry date of (31st December 2014) 2. The additional ESB Support payment of (10 cent per kWh), applies to the first 3,000 kWh exported annually. This payment will be made to the first 4,000 micro-generators connected in a 3 year period from (from 26th February 2009) and will be paid over a 5 year period.The 5 year period for the ESB Support payment (10 cent / kWh) will run from start date of original contract in the event that the contract transfers from one customer to another.

The additional 10c program is now closed

Yep thanks. That's what I was looking for.

SO are the ESB saying that after 2014 they may not pay you anything at all or they will pay whatever the going rate is commercially ?

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep thanks. That's what I was looking for.

SO are the ESB saying that after 2014 they may not pay you anything at all or they will pay whatever the going rate is commercially ?

yes - re-evaluated each year and based on market rates

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

The network was never designed to have power pushed into it at the very far reaches of its extremities - it would take considerable re-engineering to permit this.

The ESB can purchase power at 3 to 7c - in Germany (and UK) many microgen contracts are written at 40c plus /unit which is utter madness and the generators are obliged to take it. Thus they are having to pass that cost onto the end user all for the sake of "green".

Here in Ireland its 9c - which I think is about right - its the same as the night time domestic purchase price

If as you are finding out you do a full return-on-investment then you have to generate just enough to cover you average consumption - push when you have a little excess and pull when you have demand.

I don't accept the network here could be much worst than the German network, the ESB invested heavily in the network in Ireland in the last Decade or so.

I don't accept that out taxes should be going to subsidize big commercial wind energy companies, at least that money should go towards domestic micro installations and not major shareholders in wind companies.

The micro generation should be guaranteed at at least the night rate to make it some what viable for life. There is no way anyone will accept giving the ESB free energy.

IF in Germany they can send 13Kwp to the normal domestic grid I see no reason why you can't here, now perhaps they are on 3 phase as standard ?

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

yes - re-evaluated each year and based on market rates

SO in other words, they will pay you for life but based on what they feel like ?

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't accept the network here could be much worst than the German network, the ESB invested heavily in the network in Ireland in the last Decade or so.

I don't accept that out taxes should be going to subsidize big commercial wind energy companies, at least that money should go towards domestic micro installations and not major shareholders in wind companies.

The micro generation should be guaranteed at at least the night rate to make it some what viable for life. There is no way anyone will accept giving the ESB free energy.

IF in Germany they can send 13Kwp to the normal domestic grid I see no reason why you can't here, now perhaps they are on 3 phase as standard ?

taxes don't go towards big wind companies, the PSO Levy does, in 2012 wind saved the grid €75M but also cost us €75m in PSO levies so no real benefit particularly considering the fossil plants were cycling and emitting higher rate of emissions because of this.

we should not be subsiding micro generating. its doesn't make economic sense. Germany has a much higher annual rate of w/m2 and the subsidies were meant to develop a market, however the market pretty much collapsed once they stopped these, shown that there was no real demand. Europe approach was to put a high rate of Duty on Chinese PV Cells.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

taxes don't go towards big wind companies, the PSO Levy does, in 2012 wind saved the grid €75M but also cost us €75m in PSO levies so no real benefit particularly considering the fossil plants were cycling and emitting higher rate of emissions because of this.

we should not be subsiding micro generating. its doesn't make economic sense. Germany has a much higher annual rate of w/m2 and the subsidies were meant to develop a market, however the market pretty much collapsed once they stopped these, shown that there was no real demand. Europe approach was to put a high rate of Duty on Chinese PV Cells.

According to the solar calculator Germany does not have much higher w/m2 maybe a little but not a lot. Certain parts of the south might have a fair bit higher but certainly not the rest of Germany.

IF a 3 Kwp solar installation can provide more than I need a year I think this is actually pretty good and shows real potential for Ireland.

German skies are not cloud free, every time I go over there are several cloudy days. This time of the year is little different to here. It maybe better but it's far from cloud free.

Subsidizing the cost of installations to domestic micro generators does make sense because that's jobs created and money spent in the country after the initial purchase of the turbine/solar inverter etc. Any energy gets produced here and sold, we do have a lot of potential for renewable energy here.

I'd much rather see our tax (PSO) whatever going to benefit us and not investors.

The problem of fossil fuel power is one that can't be solved until battery storage becomes viable, at least the inter-connector to the U.K will mean our excess wind can be exported, and not turned off at low demand.

We were promised all these wind farms would make energy cheaper but it has completely failed to do so and it won't because wind farms are there for one reason only and it;s not to make clean energy or reduce emissions or save the oil reserves but for profit, nothing else.

freddyuk

Deleted User wrote: »

We know it's not allowed to connect to the grid but I was merely making the point that if using the correct equipment you could do it yourself.

Lead acid batteries/Gel etc are junk compared to modern Lithium batteries.

With lead acid you got about 100-300, 300 I would doubt, so in order to maximise longevity you got to use about 20-40% maximum of the available capacity. Meaning you got to buy far, far more than you need.

Say my daily average requirements are 6.5 Kwh per day then using lead acid I'd want about Min 12-18 kwh to reduce cycling of the lead acid batteries.

You Absolutely do not want to use LiPo as freddy mentioned, perhaps by mistake ? LiPo (can be) highly dangerous and (WILL) burn your house/shed down if neglected abused or for no reason at all.

LiPo batteries are those that RC enthusiasts use in their remote control plains, cars etc. though some also use much lower powered NiMh similar to your rechargeable AA batteries but the LiPo must never, ever be stored in any house, shed especially the amount required for renewable storage.

LiFeP04 is a far far safer chemistry and will not catch fire, it will smoke but it won't burn.

At 100% DOD or debt of discharge LiFeP04 can get between 2000-7000 cycles depending on each manufacturer, then you still got 70% capacity after. So your LiFeP04 could turn into 19 years usage at 100% DOD or using 70% capacity could easily translate to 30+ years. There are calender losses too though in a moderate climate like Ireland it should last a long time.

Though you need guarantees and you absolutely need to know the manufacturers data.

The downside about most lithium batteries is the absolute need for a BMS or battery management system which adds to the cost. But good ones are not that hard to find and may add only 100-300 Euro's to the cost.

A good average price currently is about 1000 Euro's per KWh of LiFeP04 so the cost of that and a wind turbine is prohibitive. It would take me about 50 years to get a payback from that at my current usage.

It's all rather depressing because if you were to add an EV onto that usage then it really gets depressing the costs to store that energy.

If you add up our need for energy it's a hell of a lot just for one house !

This is why the ESB should get serious and allow people to generate a lot more than 5 Kw into the grid. In Germany my partners parents are dumping 13 KWp in solar into the grid and it's working very well for them.

I try to offer advice based on fact so that anyone without the full knowledge would not take the incomplete information given here and go off and do something which is unsafe or illegal. So you can install your own PV but you cannot legally install uncertified equipment or connect to to he grid without a certificate. There is sufficient information available to do it correctly however the system here is relatively unsupervised so if it is done wrong it will not be checked by anyone officially.
I should have made it clear I was referring to LiFePO4 version but thought we were talking off grid storage not short term model flying. (LiPO as in Phosphate not LiPO as in Polymer! My fault)
These batteries have their place. They have different attributes to modern lead acid batteries. Both types have their place in the off grid world and price is a major consideration for most people or there may be operational reasons why Lithium is preferred. You do not need to buy more lead acid capacity than you need you just need to design a system that works most efficiently. Having a battery management system is recommended in either technology to maximise long term benefits. To call lead acid batteries junk is a little crass in my view. Every car in the world has a lead acid battery fitted.
You cannot take a lithium battery to 100% DOD as I said. Using the management system ensures this does not happen otherwise what is the point of having it installed? Some Lithium batteries have the system included which highlights my point that you cannot afford to take them below 90% DOD.
For the average off grid system a lower cost can be achieved using quality Wet lead acid batteries properly charged and if anything untoward happens as in over charging due to a control failure then the batteries can be replenished and brought back to 100%. You cannot do this with LiFePO4 batteries as far as I know so your extra expense (about 10 times more for lithium) may be lost and need complete replacement.
In a perfect world the latest technology will be 100% efficient and 100% reliable but it is not so. If you have a problem with off grid you need to be able to fix it and maintain the power supply. Lithium is not going to be so forgiving. I may use lithum for some of the loads as in very high short term discharge and WLA for other loads. That may be a better solution?

fclauson

batteries at a local level do not make sense

but check out

http://www.aesenergystorage.com/news/newsday-400-megawatt-battery-proposed-lipa.html

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

batteries at a local level do not make sense

but check out

http://www.aesenergystorage.com/news/newsday-400-megawatt-battery-proposed-lipa.html

No not at current costs but eventually they will be economically viable.

In the years to come used EV batteries will be used for storage and the ESB are already looking into this which would make the replacement costs much cheaper if you need to replace your battery, though car manufacturers may not allow a new battery to be installed.