neutering and whining

jsabina

Ok, I don't know if I am asking any question or just want to complain a stress relief :P

Today Buddy has been neutered.
I collected him at 3.10 and since then he has not stopped whining!!!

I don't think he is in much pain because he can walk, he had some food, water etc.
(jago couldn't even walk properly).
Maybe the anesthetic, a bit of pain, feeling weird, the collar (I put on and off, but I had the experience with Jago, so I prefer to keep it on when I cannot check him).
Argh!!

I really hope he will let me sleep!

I prepared a fantastic huge crate with a comfy bed for him...
well Jago is in it and buddy doesn't want to get in at all :P

DBB

It's the anaesthetic talking... It knocks ten bells out of most dogs, more than most people realise, and will probably have him out of sorts tomorrow too. If you can at all, try to get him to lie somewhere warm and comfortable, it may mean lying on the floor with him for a while. Let him sink into a deep sleep... Once he gives himself up to the anaesthetic, he'll sleep it off! But he may take a bit of convincing.

jsabina

thanks a lot, I've tried, but he keeps going around feeling weird.
now we will move to the bedroom, I'll bring the dog bed, blankets and he can stay wherever he prefer I would also sleep on the floor with him if it helps

meoklmrk91

DBB wrote: »

It's the anaesthetic talking... It knocks ten bells out of most dogs, more than most people realise, and will probably have him out of sorts tomorrow too. If you can at all, try to get him to lie somewhere warm and comfortable, it may mean lying on the floor with him for a while. Let him sink into a deep sleep... Once he gives himself up to the anaesthetic, he'll sleep it off! But he may take a bit of convincing.

Completely agree with them, it knocks them for six and they are completely out of sorts after it.

inocybe

my dog shrieks all night after any surgery, I know it isn't pain because the first time I brought him back for a second shot of painkiller. I think it's a panic reaction, and now I just plan on getting no sleep that first night:(

aonb

Poor Buddy, poor you - how is he today?
The anaesthetic effects them all so differently.
One of my lot used to be really stressed by the cone too - every time it hit something he would freak. If he is less disorientated from the anaesthetic today, and if you think the cone is stressing him, you could take an old jumper, cut the sleeve off, stuff it full of the rest of the cut-up jumper, and tie it around his neck like a collar - he wont be able to bend his head enough to get at his stitches - might help.
Hope he is doing ok today. Lots of TLC and reassuring cuddles coming up!

ZiabR

I think all dogs are just different they way they handle stress etc. Mine came back and slept for 24 hours and was fine after 48 hours.

borderlinemeath

The GA can leave them feeling all sorts of wierd and disorientated. The buster collar is another stressful element of it, plus that one is a solid colour so it may add to his disorientation as he won't have any peripheral vision with it. Even lthough I do prefer the fabric ones to the plastic ones that always leave a poor dog like a bull in a china shop!

jsabina

The good thing is that he slept almost all night next to me... sometimes whining a bit and seeking for reassurance.
In some way he managed to take away the cone..
Anyway yesterday evening I left him without cone for few hours checking in contantly and he was still crying all the time!

I tried both the plastic transparent cone and the fabric one and he hates both :P

This morning a bit better, but when I put the cone on started crying again... he will get used unfortunately for him.

He is at home with the flatmates and I am at work and Jago in day care ... :P

jsabina

My flatmates told me that Buddy has been crying the whole day
I suspect is the cone but as I could not supervise him and didn't want to leave him without it.
I just sent them to the butcher to buy very nice bones so maybe I can keep him enterteined!

I also think he is missing his walks!
Even if he is 8 years old and a quiet dog, he really loves to go out!!!

jsabina

they are happy and busy now!

mud_guard

I had my bulldog neutred around six weeks ago , worst thing ive ever done, no improvement whatsoever in any apparent sense and he has not stopped peeing in the house every chance he gets ever since , he never did this prior to being neutred

if anything he is also more prone to aggression since having the job done

jsabina

that's strange..
this is my 3d experience with dog neutering and I never had any negative experience (a part from the post surgery).
Jago is super happy now, even more happy than before... but I don't think thanks to the surgery anyway

I am sorry that he has this problem... maybe he has some discomfort that's why he is more prone to aggression and peeing?

DBB

mud_guard wrote: »

I had my bulldog neutred around six weeks ago , worst thing ive ever done, no improvement whatsoever in any apparent sense and he has not stopped peeing in the house every chance he gets ever since , he never did this prior to being neutred

if anything he is also more prone to aggression since having the job done

What age is your dog?
Have you had him checked out with your vet to make sure everything's okay down there?

mud_guard

DBB wrote: »

What age is your dog?
Have you had him checked out with your vet to make sure everything's okay down there?

he will be seven in a months time , I got him off a family who were going back to their own country around seven months ago , they were using him as a stud dog so perhaps a combi of his age and his stud past contributed to an overly hormonal dog

DBB

mud_guard wrote: »

he will be seven in a months time , I got him off a family who were going back to their own country around seven months ago , they were using him as a stud dog so perhaps a combi of his age and his stud past contributed to an overly hormonal dog

Ah, I wondered was he a youngster or not.
Hmmm... Give it time, it very often takes 6 months for the effects of the operation to kick in, especially in a dog who presumably had plenty of testosterone coursing through his veins!
But I'd be a wee bit concerned about all that peeing and the increased aggression, I think it'd be a good idea to get your vet to check that everything's okay. It may be something unrelated to the neutering... A uti or something.

mud_guard

DBB wrote: »

Ah, I wondered was he a youngster or not.
Hmmm... Give it time, it very often takes 6 months for the effects of the operation to kick in, especially in a dog who presumably had plenty of testosterone coursing through his veins!
But I'd be a wee bit concerned about all that peeing and the increased aggression, I think it'd be a good idea to get your vet to check that everything's okay. It may be something unrelated to the neutering... A uti or something.

neighbour of mine has a boxer bitch , he claims spaying made her worse temprement wise , vets make good money promoting neutering and spaying so its in their interest to say its universally a positive move , their are often side effects which are negative

DBB

mud_guard wrote: »

neighbour of mine has a boxer bitch , he claims spaying made her worse temprement wise , vets make good money promoting neutering and spaying so its in their interest to say its universally a positive move , their are often side effects which are negative

I'm not disputing the pros and cons of neutering. Aggression can worsen in some bitches...that is a documented risk. Not that it's necessarily the cause of the Boxer's deterioration. I'm not terribly interested in using isolated events like this to come to any great conclusions, one way or the other.
I am merely trying to make the point that no matter what, a substantial increase in urinating as you have posted about with your dog, is worth getting checked out. It could be associated with the neutering directly (unlikely) or indirectly (a little more likely), but it may also be completely unrelated. It is not a potential consequence of male neutering that I've ever heard of.

mud_guard

DBB wrote: »

I'm not disputing the pros and cons of neutering. Aggression can worsen in some bitches...that is a documented risk. Not that it's necessarily the cause of the Boxer's deterioration. I'm not terribly interested in using isolated events like this to come to any great conclusions, one way or the other.
I am merely trying to make the point that no matter what, a substantial increase in urinating as you have posted about with your dog, is worth getting checked out. It could be associated with the neutering directly (unlikely) or indirectly (a little more likely), but it may also be completely unrelated. It is not a potential consequence of male neutering that I've ever heard of.

the guy I buy dog food off ( online store ) claims that dogs can become traumatised after being neutered at an older than normal age and this could lead to issues like urinating excessively and in the house

maggiepip

My cousin got her dog neutered there last year, he was 1yr at the time. For three to four months after that he literally went a bit mad in the head. A nightmare compared to how he was pre-neuter. He started playing up big time, got worse towards other dogs, was barking half the night when left alone and became highly boisterous. She was kicking herself she got him neutered at all. Then the pharmacist she worked with told her she had heard of this happening and it was because the hormones can get really messed up after the operation and go crazy for awhile causing the poor dog to go a bit crazy. She said all should calm down in a few months. Whether this information is technically correct or not I don't know but the dog did indeed go totally back to normal after some months. In fact he is now a bit of an angel :-) I would make sure though he doesn't have any underlying infections or the like.

DBB

mud_guard wrote: »

the guy I buy dog food off ( online store ) claims that dogs can become traumatised after being neutered at an older than normal age and this could lead to issues like urinating excessively and in the house

I've never come across it.
Neither in personal experience nor in the research papers.
But maybe the guy who sells pet food has read something I missed.

ferretone

DBB wrote: »

I've never come across it.
Neither in personal experience nor in the research papers.
But maybe the guy who sells pet food has read something I missed.

Looks like you'll have to bow to his superior credentials - after all, he sells petfood online :pac:

mud_guard

DBB wrote: »

I've never come across it.
Neither in personal experience nor in the research papers.
But maybe the guy who sells pet food has read something I missed.

well he doesn't seem like a spoofer , I don't know the guy , I told him my story and he presented this possible explanation right away

DBB

mud_guard wrote: »

well he doesn't seem like a spoofer , I don't know the guy , I told him my story and he presented this possible explanation right away

I'm not saying he's a spoofer. I'm sure he genuinely believes what he told you.

ferretone

maggiepip wrote: »

My cousin got her dog neutered there last year, he was 1yr at the time. For three to four months after that he literally went a bit mad in the head. A nightmare compared to how he was pre-neuter. He started playing up big time, got worse towards other dogs, was barking half the night when left alone and became highly boisterous. She was kicking herself she got him neutered at all. Then the pharmacist she worked with told her she had heard of this happening and it was because the hormones can get really messed up after the operation and go crazy for awhile causing the poor dog to go a bit crazy. She said all should calm down in a few months. Whether this information is technically correct or not I don't know but the dog did indeed go totally back to normal after some months. In fact he is now a bit of an angel :-) I would make sure though he doesn't have any underlying infections or the like.

I'd hesitate to connect the 2 events if it were my dog. After all, 1 year is still a very formative period, and behaviour and temperament can still be very much in development. I've known dogs go through "crazy" phases around that time frequently enough, both recently neutered and otherwise.

maggiepip

ferretone wrote: »

I'd hesitate to connect the 2 events if it were my dog. After all, 1 year is still a very formative period, and behaviour and temperament can still be very much in development. I've known dogs go through "crazy" phases around that time frequently enough, both recently neutered and otherwise.

I know and I agree, at the same time the the dog literally changed overnight. That was very coincidental timing.

DBB

maggiepip wrote: »

I know and I agree, at the same time the the dog literally changed overnight. That was very coincidental timing.

If the change was that sudden, then you'd have to assume a connection. However, there can without doubt be an odd reaction in some dogs to the general anaesthesia, rather than the actual neutering.
There's a possibility that this lunacy (and I've come across cases of it lasting several weeks) could become a learned behaviour? The behaviour could therefore outlive the actual biochemical cause. I've also read about it in dogs who had GA but the operation was not neutering. There's also something nagging me that I've heard about this same post-op "mania" in humans!
That all said, who knows? There's research being published all the time, and perhaps a link will be found between neutering and post-op madness!

Rips

MudGuard have you consulted your vet about this? When the immune system is compromised, pets can pick up urinary infections that cause this behaviour, not uncommon after a surgical procedure.

As someone who comes from a background working with a lot of pets who are neutered when they are older - I have never encountered any of the associations mentioned above.

In particular, I have experience of two older dogs, who were absolute horrors for territorial spraying, one had very bad dog on dog aggression - they were being neutered as a matter of course, nothing to do with their temperament, and it was assumed that only persistent training after the op would resolve their issues. As it turned out, both of them, were like new dogs. From the day after recovery.

The one with very bad dog on dog aggression, his new owners verified, never had an issue, and never once soiled in the house. (Collie x Corgi) The other (pomeranian x) I rehomed to a member of my extended family after fostering himself myself for a period of time, again, issues completely resolved. This is despite the fact that it can take some time for the hormones to leave the system, I just dispute the fact that animals are 'traumatised' after the fact.

My parents GSD, wasn't neutered until he was 5, absolutely did not notice. He used to do a lot of 'worrying' at certain times of the year (bitches in heat) and he doesn't anymore.

Contrary to beliefs cited above, well executed spay and neuter surgeries have very low margins in comparison to other services provided by veterinary clinics. And intact dogs, females moreso, have a lot more cause to incur veterinary bills over the course of their lives. So it could possibly be argued that a vet seeking to profit, would advocate that pets were left entire.


If your pet has a serious negative 'behaviour transplant' after surgery - for which there really is no medical justification, it might be an indication of some type of an abuse. Poor management under anaesthesia, could cause brain damage, abuse suffered while hospitalised ... the actions only, of negligent practice. The only medical reason I could otherwise think of, would be an adverse drug reaction, to which some breeds are predisposed, this can have lasting effects.

Rips

One thing I forgot to mention in relation to the original post! Never underestimate the ability of your pet to 'read' your emotions.

I've lost count of the amount of dogs I have seen, have very quick or even minor procedures, recover really well, seem to have absolutely no 'awareness' of their 'condition' ... until they are reunited with their owners. People project their worry, and their concern onto to their pets, they absolutely do.

Examples;

Pet is monitored for 24hrs post op, has wound, but does not require a collar as seems to have little awareness of its affliction. Reunited with its owners, owners start crooning and collapse in a heap around the 'poor dog' ... dog starts attacking the wound.

30kg Greyhound. High risk anaesthesia due to possible sensitivity goes remarkably smoothly, dog recovers quickly, is up and highly mobile, active, energy levels difficult for staff to control. Owners arrives, highly stressed, worried - dog collapses on floor and refuses to walk. Vets actually concerned about possible delayed reaction because of behaviour. Bring dog back for assessment, dogs tries to drag them from the room. Meets owner again, collapses on floor, starts whining, until is picked up and carried to car.

Just the sheer amount of dogs who start howling uncontrollably or feeling sorry for themselves the moment they meet their owners after being perfectly fine, happy, waggy and energetic minutes previously!

maggiepip

Would neutering/spaying not cause a very sudden hormone imbalance which could affect behaviour temporarily though?

DBB

maggiepip wrote: »

Would neutering/spaying not cause a very sudden hormone imbalance which could affect behaviour temporarily though?

It's certainly a potential danger for females in heat, or females spayed in or soon after pregnancy. Females are, for all intents and purposes, asexual and non-hormonal outside these times.
But the danger, as far as I know, is not there with males, because the testicles aren't the only glands that secrete testosterone, so there's always some testosterone produced over for the life of the neutered male dog. In any case, after neutering there should be a gradual decrease in testosterone in the bloodstream, not a sudden, catastrophic drop.