What can be done about racism in football?

y0ssar1an22

With the return fixture betwwen City and CSKA, I think this is an appropriate time to talk about racism in football- or more specifically, what are the possible solutions to the problem?

I think UEFA/FIFA could possibly open a can of worms if they start banning/ejecting clubs from competitions. Is it unreasonable to think that supporters could try to sabotage their rivals by wearing the rivals jersey and shouting racist abuse?
I dont really know, but football supporters are passionate and some of the hate for rival teams is really quite extraordinary.
I think anything that punishes the club in a meaningful way could lead to this.
I suppose the other solution is to arrest the individuals and deal with them as an individual. This would need the support of the appropriate governments/law makers to ensure the punishment is severe enough to act as a deterrent.

Or maybe I am judging supporters unfairly, and they wouldn't sabotage a rival. But to be sure, I think arrests need to be made before any punishments can be handed out by UEFA/FIFA.
I dont know the law at all but surly for a punishment to be handed out there have to be culprits that are found to be guilty in a court of law?

Lovely Bloke

It doesn't matter if it's rival fans or not.

UEFA/FIFA need to properly punish it, long bans, huge fines, removal from competitions.

What follows from that is clubs self-policing. ANYONE, fans or camoflaged rival fans, who starts monkey chants, racist songs etc will be quickly removed before the racism can take hold among a large group.

Neil3030

I love the solution offered on Football Weekly a few weeks ago (o.k., not so much a solution, but a masterlcass in illustrative trolling), whereby fans at Champion's League games should start chanting songs encouraging everyone to buy X-Boxes, use Visa cards and basically every other rival to a tournament sponsor.

The swiftness of UEFA to step in and fine / ban such clubs will show just how quickly and effectively the pricks can act, when it suits them.

dan1895

Neil3030 wrote: »

I love the solution offered on Football Weekly a few weeks ago (o.k., not so much a solution, but a masterlcass in illustrative trolling), whereby fans at Champion's League games should start chanting songs encouraging everyone to buy X-Boxes, use Visa cards and basically every other rival to a tournament sponsor.

The swiftness of UEFA to step in and fine / ban such clubs will show just how quickly and effectively the pricks can act, when it suits them.

Reminds me how quick they kicked out those Dutch women wearing Bavaria shirts at the last world cup.

mitosis

It's not football, it's society. Do you think these people become racist once they pass through a turnstile?

dan1895

mitosis wrote: »

It's not football, it's society. Do you think these people become racist once they pass through a turnstile?

No but they use football as a channel for their hate. Football and football clubs are part of society and a part that has to act to stamp it out. Hopefully other sectors of society out of football can/will do the same.

GavRedKing

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it's rival fans or not.

UEFA/FIFA need to properly punish it, long bans, huge fines, removal from competitions.

What follows from that is clubs self-policing. ANYONE, fans or camoflaged rival fans, who starts monkey chants, racist songs etc will be quickly removed before the racism can take hold among a large group.

Nail on the head right there with pretty much every point.

mitosis wrote: »

It's not football, it's society. Do you think these people become racist once they pass through a turnstile?

This is true but once a couple of hundred or thousand meet in one place and a small minority start it, the large crowd can easily join in.

Regardless, these type of people have no place inside a stadium and once they're caught they should be punished.

You have to imagine though these people, they'll still get into the stadium regardless of bans and restrictions of movement on matchdays for whatever club it is invovled.

witnessmenow

mitosis wrote: »

It's not football, it's society. Do you think these people become racist once they pass through a turnstile?

People behave differently in crowd. You see it when a player goes near opposition fans and majority of the fans are making gestures insinuating that the player pleasures him self sexually, do you think those people would go up to anyone in the street and do the same thing, majority of the time it would be no.

If your actions have a major consequence to the team you are there to support maybe you would think twice about doing something.

This is my problem with holding the clubs responsible though. Say they introduce points reduction for a crowd found guilty of racist remarks, you could have a situation where a load of Man Utd fans go to a City game with the sole intention of trying to get City docked points.

mitosis

GavRedKing wrote: »

Regardless, these type of people have no place inside a stadium and once they're caught they should be punished.

.

I agree, but the problem needs to be sorted at source, through education etc. Society, ie people, need to demonstrate they have no acceptance for racism and show the offenders the way to behave. If right minded fans in grounds told the racists to shut up the problem would go away pretty quickly, but that won't happen because they want Uefa or "someone else" to be responsible for what is their problem.

Lovely Bloke

mitosis wrote: »

It's not football, it's society. Do you think these people become racist once they pass through a turnstile?

No, but there is a thing called crowd dynamics.

People act differently in a crowd - safety in numbers and all that.

What needs to happen is the ring leaders turfed out, and kept out.

mitosis

GavRedKing wrote: »

This is true but once a couple of hundred or thousand meet in one place and a small minority start it, the large crowd can easily join in.

.

And this tells you loads about what people are really like. "I'm not a racist, but sure those lads seem like they're having fun, let's all join in".

Lovely Bloke

witnessmenow wrote: »

This is my problem with holding the clubs responsible though. Say they introduce points reduction for a crowd found guilty of racist remarks, you could have a situation where a load of Man Utd fans go to a City game with the sole intention of trying to get City docked points.

This is a ridiculous suggestion.

Has it happened in the past? Have Millwall fans posed as Leeds fans in an attempt to get Leeds punished for hooliganism?

No. Not to any large extent.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Once the racism starts, it doesn't matter who is doing it, or what colours they are wearing - it is up to the club who own the stadium to provide adequate policing/stewarding and remove the culprits - be they home fans, camoflaged rival fans or rugby fans.

Also, you'll get some clowns defending their club by saying "those people aren't fans anyway".

Yes. They are.

Lovely Bloke

mitosis wrote: »

And this tells you loads about what people are really like. "I'm not a racist, but sure those lads seem like they're having fun, let's all join in".

no it doesn't, it tells you what loads of people are like in crowds.

GavRedKing

It all boils down to the FA's/UEFA/FIFA imposing very strict sanctions at whatever level it happens at.

Domestic level - Warning, Huge fines, Stadium bans, dock points
European/International - Warning, Huge fines, Stadium bans, dock points/exclude from future competitions

To many clubs are getting fines that amount to a couple of thousand and warning about future behaviour, there has to be a mandate regarding sanctions and they have to be applied across the board, whether it be League 2 or the Champions league.

GLaDOS

Governing bodies absolutely have to crack down heavily on it. Clubs will then have to police crowds, and indeed the crowd itself won't be as passive towards a minority singing offensive chants.

Lovely Bloke

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Governing bodies absolutely have to crack down heavily on it. Clubs will then have to police crowds, and indeed the crowd itself won't be as passive towards a minority singing offensive chants.

I've seen this on a small scale actually working where a national association was fining a club for singing "offensive" songs (not racist in this instance). Those fines were hurting the club and the fans themselves policed people trying to start those songs.

GLaDOS

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I've seen this on a small scale actually working where a national association was fining a club for singing "offensive" songs (not racist in this instance). Those fines were hurting the club and the fans themselves policed people trying to start those songs.

I've seen similar in Dalymount, a racist remark was shouted and the guy who made it was told in no uncertain terms to fuck off. Mightn't be as feasible in larger crowds, but it's important that any racism isn't going to be accepted by the crowd, even if it's for self serving reasons.

Lovely Bloke

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I've seen similar in Dalymount, a racist remark was shouted and the guy who made it was told in no uncertain terms to fuck off. Mightn't be as feasible in larger crowds, but it's important that any racism isn't going to be accepted by the crowd, even if it's for self serving reasons.

so what you are saying here is that Bohs fans are racist?

Who was the comment directed at?

I've never personally heard racism at LoI games, thankfully.

GLaDOS

One person made a racist comment and was told to get out by another fan. It was directed at a black player form the opposition.

This wasn't for self serving purposes, I was referring to your example when you said that.

witnessmenow

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

This is a ridiculous suggestion.

Has it happened in the past? Have Millwall fans posed as Leeds fans in an attempt to get Leeds punished for hooliganism?

No. Not to any large extent.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Once the racism starts, it doesn't matter who is doing it, or what colours they are wearing - it is up to the club who own the stadium to provide adequate policing/stewarding and remove the culprits - be they home fans, camoflaged rival fans or rugby fans.

Also, you'll get some clowns defending their club by saying "those people aren't fans anyway".

Yes. They are.

How is it a ridiculous suggestion? Hooliganism could land you in jail or injured, unlikely to be the same case for making monkey noises.

Its up the police to provide adequate policing. I think clubs should provide better CCTV for identifying ring leaders though. You see those 360 degree images after game now where you can look up yourself at a game, why not use something like that to help catch these people?

Anyways, my point is exactly what you are saying anyways, the culprits should be punished, not the club in my opinion. If the club are doing everything in their power to eliminate it (providing the CCTV etc)

Dock points and/or remove from competition.

Until this happens there's hardly much of a deterrent.

Kirby

Nail on the head. Deterrent is the watchword.

Like anything in sport or life, if there is no deterrent, all the talk in the world won't change anything. All the ugly aspects of football from racism to homophobia to match fixing to diving. They all exist because there is no punishment worth talking about. And until there is, we will see much more.

The partial stadium closure of CSKA over the toure chants were a joke. Fine the club 5 million pounds. And 10 million for the next racist chant. And then 20 and so on. If they refuse to pay, ban them from all European competitions. That will sort out the problem because the club will be forced to cull the element.

Donnielighto

Fines aren't workable since they aren't a level playing field. 10M could sink some clubs while others would be able absorb it easily. Points and entry to cups should be the punishments. Closed stadiums too.

Donnielighto

Donnielighto wrote: »

Fines aren't workable since they aren't a level playing field. 10M could sink some clubs while others would be able absorb it easily. Points and entry to cups should be the punishments. Closed stadiums too.

Yeah I agree with the fines.

Impo closed stadiums aren'y much of a deterrent either.

Docked points and expulsion from comps is the only way.

Kirby

Donnielighto wrote: »

entry to cups should be the punishments.

Ah here, forcing a team to play in the Europe league is a step too far. :P