Is it difficult not to christen a baby?

ncmc

Was just listening to Ray D’Arcy this morning and he was reading a text from a woman who had christened her daughter and who attended a catholic school, but the parents didn’t want her to do her first communion as they don’t consider themselves catholic.

This struck a bit of a chord for me, I am pregnant with my first child and we have decided not to christen the baby. Well, I am pretty emphatic about it; my husband would probably prefer to christen the baby for ‘the easy life’.

I do have reservations though, I know both sets of parents will be very upset as they are staunch catholics, which is upsetting to me because our parents mean the world to us and I don’t want to hurt them. There is also the issue of school, there is no Educate Together school near us (we live in the country) and I would like my child to go to the local school, so they can be close to their friends as well as convenience for us. But of course, the local school is catholic. Is it making life very difficult for the child having them sit out RE and missing out on such occasions as first communion and confirmation?

All in all, I know it would probably just be easier to christen the baby, even if I don’t believe, and I’m sure a lot of parents do this for the easy life. But I don’t want to do this, I believe it would be wrong to christen a baby if neither parent believed and have no intention of having church a part of the childs life.

Has anyone else here not christened their child/children and did they find it caused difficulty in their life?

Big Bag of Chips

Personally, I think it is worse to christen a baby and then "opt-out" of communion etc. When you enroll a child in school you are asked to send in a copy of the Baptismal cert if you wish your child to take part in the sacraments.

So by sending in the cert you are allowing your child to take part in religion class from Junior Infants, but then when it comes to 2nd class, you are telling them they cannot be a part of it anymore.

It is a decision you are going to have to make for yourself - but - if your child gets to 6, 7 or 8 etc and decides that THEY want to be baptised, because they hear talk of God, or Jesus etc, and like the idea of it, would you allow them to be baptised at that stage? We are not particularly religious. I do hold my own beliefs, (and am unsure on parts!) I have a boy who is due to make his communion this year. He had said last year he mightn't make it because he didn't really like going to mass. I told him it was completely his decision, and if he didn't want to make it, he didn't have to.

He thought about it for a while, and has decided he'd like to. He is so "into" it.. and I don't mean the money side :rolleyes: He is "into" God, and heaven, and the idea of angels etc.. He has been going to mass more regularly and is asking questions - which we are answering truthfully. I would be more of a "believer" than my husband, so we both answer with what we believe. For now, he is choosing to believe it all - and he has also been told that when he becomes an adult he can still decide what he believes. He knows I do believe, he knows his dad doesn't.

I know that doesn't really answer your question (as my kids are christened) but I thought I'd share it anyway!!

By not baptising your child and excluding them from RE class, you are not necessarily making things "harder" for yourself or for them - so long as you have your reasons and you are able to explain to your child if they ask, there shouldn't be an issue. But as I mentioned, you do have to think about, if your child decides that they would like to be baptised, and they want to believe - will you allow that?

nikpmup

This is something that's been going over in my head too. I have no religious belief whatsoever, nor does my partner, and I would rather my son isn't part of the catholic faith, for many reasons. (Of course, if he decided himself that he wanted to be, then I would support it) My own parents probably wouldn't care either way if he weren't christened, but my OH's mum has been asking about it. I'd rather make the point of NOT having him christened, but my OH reckons that if we don't believe, then it's just a drop of water on the kids head to keep his mam happy. I'm more thinking of the longer term - communions, confirmations and what happens if he wants a religious wedding ceremony years down the line. We're hoping he'll go to an educate together school.

Tasden

Ask your local school what their enrollment policy actually is. In my girls school it was children in the catchment area that are Catholic are automatically "entitled", then children in CA of no religion, then Catholic kids not in CA, then kids of no religion not in CA.

My child was not baptised. We debated it for a while based on social norms/family etc but decided that we would be absolute hypocrites to do it. However my daughter is extremely religious. She believes in heaven and God and all the rest. She doesn't take part in religion lessons but naturally she hears it all. It's a regular discussion in our house tbh. Its kind of a "should I believe my all knowing teacher or my never wrong mammy" kind of thing! I always say to her different people believe different things but nobody actually knows but her logical mind wont accept this. I'm hoping to get some books on different religions but haven't seen any good ones yet. Trying to explain evolution to her was fun! But she has so many questions about how we got here!

(Edit) also, my Mam does say "if you're going to let her decide anyway then why not Baptiste her and let her do religion and she can change her mind later if she wants", I think this is a bit of a cop out. Force the child into a religion without their consent, then allow them to be indoctrinated in school and then hope they make an "informed and unbiased" decision when its too late and they're already Catholic? Not gonna work as far as I'm concerned.

I'd say the exclusion is a little difficult, trying to explain why she's the only child not doing it even though right now she does believe seems a little unfair. Also, the issue of communion has already reared it's head. Hopefully I can trust its for the right reasons if she does decide to make it.

There is an educate together close to us and our child was offered a place and all but the Catholic school was actually a better school so we decided on that.

Went off on a tangent there sorry!

Big Bag of Chips

Tasden wrote: »

Hopefully I can trust its for the right reasons if she does decide to make it.

Just on a complete tangent..! My friends didn't christen their son. One of the grannies is very upset over this. She said to her son (dad of the little boy) "But what about his communion, all the money he'll miss out on?"

So my friend has promised that they will have a "Come over and give him envelopes of money day" rather than a Communion Day.

I think that quitened her a bit!!!

ncmc

Thanks for the replies so far. Just to clarify, I don’t agree with the woman on the radio christening the baby, but then not going ahead with the communion etc. That made no sense to me. I think you need to make the call early, and in some ways prepare the child for the fact that they won’t be wearing the white dress etc.

That’s an interesting point Big Bag of Chips, if the child turned round to me when they were older and did want to be christened/communion, I would have no problem with that (providing they weren’t just looking for the pressies!)

My brother christened both his children, which I was surprised at as he would be quite anti-religion. His thinking behind it was that he would allow his children make their own decision but that it was easier for them to make an informed decision with having done some RE in school.
Nikpmup, I can kind of see your OH’s point about it just being a drop of water, but I would be like you, I don’t want my child to be part of the catholic faith at all. I don’t want this to turn into a catholic bashing thread, but I would have strong reasons for not wanting them to be a catholic.
It would be so much easier if we had easy access to an ET school, but I don’t want my child to have to go to school 45 mins away from their friends (we live in an estate and all those kids would go to the local school) I feel that would be very isolating for them, but then there is the isolation of being in a catholic school and not taking part in RE and major occasions like communion!

It’s just difficult, I want to do the best I can for my child, but then don’t want to make their young life difficult because of my beliefs.

Edit, Tasden, you just summed up my feelings exactly and you’ve highlighted my concerns too. Do you regret not christening her or do you believe you did the right thing?

eviltwin

I chose not to bapthise my 4 yr old. I did bapthise my 16 yr old and I have regretted it ever since.

I don't believe in God and havent' been to a church in over 20 years so the idea was alien to me. My family were disgusted, the younger ones moreso than the older ones, but they got over it. I'm an adult and its none of their business either way how I raise my child so I just ignored them.

In terms of school I think its depends on where you are and what schools are around you. I have my son down for a ET but if that doesn't work out the local Catholic school will take him. They are totally fine with him opting out of religion class and other religious rituals. I don't worry that it will make life hard for him, its good for him and other kids to know that people are different with different beliefs and besides I am sure that there will be more than just your child in the class who is not religious.

My eldest goes to a Catholic secondary school but as she is atheist she is also able to opt out of religious ceremonies. Its never been an issue so I have confidence that schools are finally starting to change.

LegacyUser

We had the same difficult decision. We decided at the end of the day not to be held ransom by the church for fear of not finding the right school for our child.

We had a ceremony in the Unitarian Church in St.Stephens Green (lovely official service that our more religious family members could appreciate but it was a non religious service - more of a spiritual service). Actually our staunchly religious family members and friends were moved to tears at how beautiful and personal the service was. I think the minister will travel out of the city too.

Although we still find ourselves in a similar predicament. What about schools? Being in the city means that no school would feel guilty about not letting our daughter in due to her non- religious persuasion. Sure there are plenty. But there are hundreds of children all vying for a spot and our kid would be bottom of the list.

So I found out about some local parents who feel the same and we are trying to set up an educate together school. It should take a few years but hopefully our baby will be ready to go by then. If not, then I'll be homeschooling our little one.

It's a difficult decision, but I'm sure you'll do what's right by you and your family. Most important thing is to do what you think is best. Best of Luck.

Vel

It’s such a difficult one. I’m a non-practicing Catholic and my partner is a non-practicing Methodist. We were adamant that we would not be baptising our children but very quickly it became apparent that it would have an impact on where they might end up going to school.

We initially put our first born’s name down for the local ET school but it is massively oversubscribed and we knew, given when he was born that he had little chance of being offered a place and this proved to be the case. There was absolutely no way that either of us wanted to christen them in the Catholic Church for various reasons and we also weren’t keen on sending them to either of the local Catholic schools anyway.

My partner’s parents are very active in their small Methodist congregation in the UK so weighing up everything, and with their education being the main reason for it, we got them baptised in his parent’s church and our eldest now attends the local Church of IreIand school which has a great reputation and which we are thrilled he got a place in. He is very unlikely to have got into this school had we not made this choice.

In an ideal world, we would have chosen not to baptise them at all but their education is extremely important to us and we wanted them to get into what we perceive to be one of the best schools in our area.

Owryan

My third child isnt christened but his 2 older brothers are. Hasnt been an issue yet and no one has said anything.

However if we want him to go to the same school as his brothers then he will have to be christened as its the schools policy seemingly.

Malarkey121

I have 2 kids who I have not christened and know of a lot of people who have opted out of the "club"
Of course it will cause questions and especially older folks grandparents etc will be a little upset but what is important here is the way you raise your child the way you feel / think / know is best.
I don't need someone to pressure me into making any choice and in return I don't push my own beliefs or non beliefs onto anyone else.

You raise your kids the best you can, they are not any different.

I ask myself why to those that don't have a say in the matter, let them decide it when they are older.
If my 2 kids turn around and tell me they would like to join the whole process of church and they believe in it after making their own decision I will be happy to let them for themselves.
As far as I am aware according to the book JC was baptised in his late teens / early 20's

At the end - Do you think the decider would block entry to the club if you have not been christened as a baby?
The whole concept of it has gone now, I don't see people getting christenings to accept their kids into gods kingdom or to a life of church and all that it may bring them - Its done now because "its what your supposed to do" and it will be a good piss up.
I questioned this and I respect anyone for doing the same.

People who may push back on me about not doing it, I will always ask them have you been to church last week, do you practice what you preach, Will your own kids understand and practice the faith you have chosen for them?
If I raise my children as I do with love and respect, teach them right from wrong and to question for themselves with or without religion they will be good.

PS - I have had no problems with schooling in fact my eldest is in one of the best pre-schools in the area (in my opinion and after reviewing them all) that she loves very much and is doing great.

When the Communion comes along i will more than likely take them to Florida or Dubai and enjoy a family week together instead of wondering why she doesn't have a pretty dress.

pwurple

It depends on your priority list and requirements for the school, and whether you even get a choice in your area. If it's the only school around, then they have to take you, baptised or not.

When I asked the local secondary school teachers if they noticed which primary schools produced the best taught incoming first years... they gave me their opinion. A catholic and anglican school were 1 and 2, and bottom of the list was the local ET school. I didn't ask them for most sociable or well adjusted children, or most sporty... I asked for best results in maths and language, because that is our requirement.

That's all I had to go on, as unfortunately there is no public standardised testing we could refer to, but because the school we chose is christian, we went down that route.

I know academic results are not everyone's priority in schools of course. It depends on what you want. Social aspects, extra supports, ethos, sports, all sorts of things form that decision. Prioritise your own list of requirements, and it falls out from there.

(That's assuming you are a giant cynic like me, and would convert the whole family at the drop of a hat if it meant a better set of school results)

Tasden

I don't regret it in the slightest!

I have a girl who thinks critically about life. I could've sent her in to do "religion" in school, lets face it they learn Catholicism not religion, and she would be told about heaven and God and Jesus etc. When a family member died we had lengthy discussions about reincarnation! This is a theory she came up with, had she been doing religion in school she would just accept heaven and no discussion would be had.
Yep it's difficult to deal with the questions and it seems unfair to her sometimes but in all honesty if I was to baptize her in order to avoid this then it'd just be laziness on my part more than anything.

Also big bag of chips- we've decided on a special day for her, she can wear the dress, have the day, give her money! But some schools do actually include the non Catholic kids in the art prep for communion and photos etc., even the mass if they wanted, which is nice!

Big Bag of Chips

My fella, the communion age one, has been talking about people's souls lately. And how when you die your soul can transfer into someone else.. But I think that's because he's been listening to Harry Potter, and the Dementors sucking Sirius Black's soul out!

Discussions can get very colourful, alright!

mitosis

We christened ours, though we are both atheist, and have allowed her make her own choices. As it happens, she went through a very religious few years, did her communion, confirmation etc, but has now lapsed. I can't see where it does any harm to the child that they are baptised, whereas I can see definite disadvantages (in our society) for not doing so.

Tasden

mitosis wrote: »

We christened ours, though we are both atheist, and have allowed her make her own choices. As it happens, she went through a very religious few years, did her communion, confirmation etc, but has now lapsed. I can't see where it does any harm to the child that they are baptised, whereas I can see definite disadvantages (in our society) for not doing so.

You're choosing their religious identity/affiliation/ belief. You're taking away their freedom of choice. You're adding another number to a church's books that you don't believe in. That is still influencing children's education. On a daily basis. Which is justified by the old "oh look at how many of our children are Catholic, the church very much has a place in their education".

Yawlboy

We have 4 kids in primary school - none of them have been christened. They are the only kids in their classes not catholic. We decided not to as we felt it would be very hypocritical of us to as we are not practising. The local school was not too worried to be honest.

The only time I thought it was a bad idea was when my eldest came home a week before communion and said he wanted to get his communion, we asked why and he said "because the priest came in today and said I'll burn in hell for all eternity if I don't" I said "No you won't as you are not catholic and we don't believe in hell." He said ok I don't want to then.

The teacher did point out that our kids were the only ones who actually had read a bible (we have various different religious kids books at home) and were actively participating in discussions in class.

I think the whole attitude in Ireland of oh well I better do it or people will talk or the kids will be singled out etc etc is BS. I honestly believe that people need to be honest and do what is best for their kids i.e. not teach them to live a lie.

YB

mikom

Question: When you christen a child are you giving the catholic church another "number" to add to their stats of the percentage of catholics on this isle? Will this your added "number" be trotted out and used to stifle debate in abortion, gay marriage, drugs legalisation, prostitution debates for the foreseeable future.

RobbieTheRobber

mitosis wrote: »

We christened ours, though we are both atheist, and have allowed her make her own choices. As it happens, she went through a very religious few years, did her communion, confirmation etc, but has now lapsed. I can't see where it does any harm to the child that they are baptised, whereas I can see definite disadvantages (in our society) for not doing so.

What are the disadvantages?

I am having my first child early next year and am currently steadfast in my resolve not to join my child to a religion that will not let them quit (Catholicism).
Which is the religion my family has ended up as, despite the surviving members not being religious in any way.
All my brothers have baptized their children so far (with the last being an absolute piss take) we have zero faith and are doing it more to keep the in-laws older generations happy. I refuse to just go along because its the done thing.

I see zero benefits and am curious as to what disadvantages people see, so I can mitigate them.

ppshay

Had to get him christened at 4-years old in order to be accepted in the local catholic school.

Two weeks ago, he came home and asked if he could start going to mass on Sundays, otherwise he would not be allowed to make his first communion.

eviltwin

ppshay wrote: »

Had to get him christened at 4-years old in order to be accepted in the local catholic school.

Two weeks ago, he came home and asked if he could start going to mass on Sundays, otherwise he would not be allowed to make his first communion.

how would they know

mitosis

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What are the disadvantages?

I am having my first child early next year and am currently steadfast in my resolve not to join my child to a religion that will not let them quit (Catholicism).
Which is the religion my family has ended up as, despite the surviving members not being religious in any way.
All my brothers have baptized their children so far (with the last being an absolute piss take) we have zero faith and are doing it more to keep the in-laws older generations happy. I refuse to just go along because its the done thing.

I see zero benefits and am curious as to what disadvantages people see, so I can mitigate them.

Most of our state primary schools are RC. That's a big one

eviltwin

mitosis wrote: »

Most of our state primary schools are RC. That's a big one

Why is that a disadvange though? Most schools will have a good mix of kids in them now of all faiths and none, they are in the main very accommodating where they can to those who for whatever reason opt out. Obviously it may no be possible to have your child sit out religion but most schools are okay to have the child sit down the back with some work or a book or something.

Tasden

mitosis wrote: »

Most of our state primary schools are RC. That's a big one

Because most of our children are still "RC"

yellowlabrador

My 2 are in their late 20's and are unchristened . They went to the local small national school. They were allowed to do other work during RE and often listened in. At 12, my daughter decided to start going to mass. She even went to communion. It was mainly a social thing to be with her mates. I explained to her that she would need to be baptised etc and join a catechism class before she could go to communion. When she looked into it, she decided that she didn't after all believe and stopped going. I would have been alright with her joining any church and don't regret my decision. The more people hold out and follow their beliefs, the better. The school system will then change. Don't forget. we are the 'clients'. A secular system with extra curricular religion would benefit the church too.

Big Bag of Chips

eviltwin wrote: »

how would they know

Communion kids now have a certain number of specified masses they go to in preparation. They first have an enrollment mass. And then a number of masses between then and their communion where thy do prayers of the faithful, and bring up gifts etc.

I think it's an effort to take the emphasis off the school in preparation, and put more of an emphasis on the family to do something other than turn up looking good on the day!

mikom

mitosis wrote: »

Most of our state primary schools are RC. That's a big one

When I was a young un we had a Sikh girl in our Catholic school class.
How did that work?

eviltwin

The best thing to do OP is ring around your local schools and see what their attitude is to non Catholic pupils. You might find its not as bad as you think.

ncmc

Thanks again for all the replies, It’s been really interesting to hear people’s views and experiences. It’s good to know that no child seems to have been scarred for life by not being christened yet still attending a catholic school! I spoke to my sister about it (she is a primary teacher) and she said they are not allowed to refuse admission for any reason and that it would be illegal for a school to use religion (or lack of) as a reason to refuse admission. I’m not sure how that would work in an instance where schools reach capacity, but she said a school would have a difficult time defending themselves if they refused your child admission and they weren’t at capacity. I will certainly approach the school when the baby is born and discuss it with them.

It’s such a shame that the vast majority of schools in Ireland are catholic, maybe if more people stood up and didn’t christen their children because ‘it’s the done thing’ we might have more alternatives to the catholic schools.

Tasden

I dunno about that. Afaik if its the ethos of the school they're within their rights to favour Catholic children. Correct me if I'm wrong though...

mikom

Tasden wrote: »

I dunno about that. Afaik if its the ethos of the school they're within their rights to favour Catholic children.

How Christian.....