Is it difficult not to christen a baby?

eviltwin

Tasden wrote: »

I dunno about that. Afaik if its the ethos of the school they're within their rights to favour Catholic children. Correct me if I'm wrong though...

Depends on the age of the child I think. At say 4, they can say no and give places to Catholic children but I think legally every child must have a place by the age of 5 or 6 so you cannot legally be in a position where you cannot send your child to school just because they are not the right religion.

Tasden

eviltwin wrote: »

Depends on the age of the child I think. At say 4, they can say no and give places to Catholic children but I think legally every child must have a place by the age of 5 or 6 so you cannot legally be in a position where you cannot send your child to school just because they are not the right religion.

But this only applies to children in the catchment area yeah? I don't know the legalities

ncmc

Tasden wrote: »

But this only applies to children in the catchment area yeah? I don't know the legalities

I'd have no issue with being in the catchment area, the school is only about 500m from my house! I would be prepared to fight it to be honest. I live in a village that had a couple of large estates and quite a lot of young families, so I would have to assume we wouldn't be the only parents that haven't christened their child.

Systemic Risk

mikom wrote: »

Question: When you christen a child are you giving the catholic church another "number" to add to their stats of the percentage of catholics on this isle? Will this your added "number" be trotted out and used to stifle debate in abortion, gay marriage, drugs legalisation, prostitution debates for the foreseeable future.

I would hope that the catholic church would have no more say than any other lobby group in debates of this nature.

In general, I very strongly disagree with the patronage of education by religious institutions. Perhaps if more people stop christening their children in order to get them into "good" catholic schools then this system would slowly die. Religious education should be administered by the parents and perhaps at some type of Sunday class after mass.

IF you don't practice yourself or no longer consider yourself catholic then why would you choose that particular religion for your child, telling them what they are supposed to believe in when you don't yourself. I understand it is the easy option but it is the easy option precisely because it is the option that everyone is taking.

eviltwin

Tasden wrote: »

But this only applies to children in the catchment area yeah? I don't know the legalities

yeah i think its your local school that has to take you so if you would rather send your child to a school in the next town you probably won't be covered.

Chattastrophe!

I won't be baptising my kid (currently a WIP.) Apart from anything else, it just wouldn't sit right with me to stand up on the alter and make those promises, which would be complete lies. I don't believe that my child will be born with any original sin that he needs to be absolved of, and I'm not prepared to go along with that, even for the sake of practicalities.

When it comes to schools, there's an Educate Together school nearby that has a very good reputation. If that doesn't work out, I guess I'll just have to see what the attitudes of the local Catholic schools are. However, even if they do allow my son to attend, I'm really not comfortable with him participating in the religious side of things - but, equally, it's not nice to think of him being excluded. We'll just have to wait and see when the time comes.

mikom

mikom wrote: »

Question: When you christen a child are you giving the catholic church another "number" to add to their stats of the percentage of catholics on this isle? Will this your added "number" be trotted out and used to stifle debate in abortion, gay marriage, drugs legalisation, prostitution debates for the foreseeable future.

Systemic Risk wrote: »

I would hope that the catholic church would have no more say than any other lobby group in debates of this nature.

I wonder.........

Enda Kenny threatened with excommunication over abortion reform
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/enda-kenny-ireland-abortion-reform-bill

pwurple

Systemic Risk wrote: »

IF you don't practice yourself or no longer consider yourself catholic then why would you choose that particular religion for your child, telling them what they are supposed to believe in when you don't yourself. I understand it is the easy option but it is the easy option precisely because it is the option that everyone is taking.

Because there is far more to religion in Ireland than the belief system. There is a our cultural background to consider. Contextualisation of our past history. Our folk stories and festivals are religious. Our hospitals and schools were set up by religious orders. The entire structure of irish society has been shaped by it down through history. Every conflict, every major event.

From a cultural perspective, I wouldn't find Joyce's books as funny if I didn't have that background. Or Fr Ted. I have an interest in religious art, religious music, religious architecture. The impact of Christianity on irish and worldwide culture is absolutely immense. I know all those can be looked at from a non-religious perspective... but I look at art from other religions and I find it slightly overwhelming and completely without context. It doesn't resonate with me, whereas the christian artifacts do. I easily recognise a Holy Mary statue, I know who the girl kneeling in front of her at grottos is without looking it up. It's not the same when I see a statue of a figure I don't recognise. I prefer some religion to no religion at all, to give a cultural perspective somewhere. We participate in traditions from various faiths, as there are angelicans, jewish, orthodox christian and muslim faiths within my family circle. Whether my children continue with christianity, change to another, or reject it completely is up to them. I hope I raise them to be critical thinkers, who can make their own decisions later. For now, they are included in something.

I know some people feel very strongly about removing religion from their lives, and that's fair enough. Work away, you can only follow your own leanings.

It is insulting to say that my decision is lazy or without thought, because you would prefer a religious school to be non-religious for you.

What might make more sense is to inquire further into why non-religious schools don't perform as well as the religious-patronage ones. Not just here, but in the UK and other jurisdictions. Why is there that difference, and how can that be improved in order to compete? Because at the end of the day, it IS a competition. For leaving cert points, for jobs, for higher wages etc.

Parents will usually make the choices which are best for their own children, rather than an abstract sense of societal change.

Glinda

The biggest issue with this from a practical point of view is the school one. OP if your local school has plenty of places then of course your child won't be refused on religious grounds. On the other hand, if they have a high demand for places then they are perfectly (and legally) entitled to give preference to kids of a certain religion (RC if it is an RC school). If I were you I'd have a look at their enrolment policy and ask about the demand for places.

You may well think this is all very unfair (and I don't necessarily disagree!) but it is the practical reality and you will find it very stressful if you have no school place for your child when the time comes. This happens more often than you think and the DofE just has to provide a place for your child, not necessarily in the school nearest you and not until they are about to turn six years old.

Sorry if this seems a million miles removed from the religious aspect of the discussion but more and more parents are getting a nasty surprise when the time comes for their little one to enrol and they discover the situation with only a couple of months to go.

IF the school has plenty of room then there is no issue.

mikom

pwurple wrote: »

Parents will usually make the choices which are best for their own children, rather than an abstract sense of societal change.

Catholic church linked societal change.
Has the decriminalising of condoms, suicide and homosexual acts improved the future lives of your children, pwurple?

mesu

There is a lot of confusion over the schools issue. Firstlyevery school has their own enrolment policy. They cannot refuse a child a placeon any grounds like religion, race etc.



However, they are allowed to allocate places according totheir own enrolment policy and that may be something like the following order:

Siblings of existing students

Catholic children from the area or parish

Catholic from outside the area or parish

Non catholic children from the area or parish



The above is just an example. If there are still places after the first two categories are sorted then they have to offer them to the children from the next category. It’s not about refusing a place based on religion, it’s about the order in which children are accepted and non catholics are often the last category and that’s why they may not get a place. Your local school is not obliged to give your child a place if the class is full.

Orion

mesu wrote: »

There is a lot of confusion over the schools issue. Firstlyevery school has their own enrolment policy. They cannot refuse a child a placeon any grounds like religion, race etc.

For religion they can.

Ethos of the school
The Acts allow primary and post-primary schools which have the objective of providing education in an environment which promotes certain religious values to admit persons of a particular religious denomination in preference to others. Primary and post-primary schools may refuse to admit a student who is not of that denomination if it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school.

This has been in effect in law since 2000.

Orion

mikom wrote: »

Catholic church linked societal change.
Has the decriminalising of condoms, suicide and homosexual acts improved the future lives of your children, pwurple?

Not relevant to the topic. Let's not turn this into a debate about the church. That's for other forums.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

I didnt get mine christened but you really have to send to an educate together otherwise the child will be singled out as different...Different kids get bullied!!!!

Orion

Summer Hundreds Self-destruction wrote: »

I didnt get mine christened but you really have to send to an educate together otherwise the child will be singled out as different...Different kids get bullied!!!!

That's an exaggeration. ET schools aren't available to most people so it may not be an option. There are many "catholic ethos" schools who accept people of any religion and cater for them perfectly well. That they have the right to refuse admission doesn't mean they all do.

How the school caters for them may widely vary but to say that they will be bullied is nonsense. All schools have a bullying policy and anything of that nature should be dealt with under that.

eviltwin

Summer Hundreds Self-destruction wrote: »

I didnt get mine christened but you really have to send to an educate together otherwise the child will be singled out as different...Different kids get bullied!!!!

Well that's the best argument for getting your child bapthised I've ever seen, do it or they might be bullied :rolleyes:

Not so, my daughter is in a rcc school, in a total student population of 250 only 8 of the students are not catholic, my daughter is the only one in her year and has never had a problem with anything like that. This topic is a recurring one on many parenting websites and I have to say I've yet to see a parent who said their child was bullied.

liliq

I haven't read all the replies, but myself and my husband decided not to baptise our child.
My father and his family would be somewhat religious, my mother isn't. My in laws would all be quite devout.
Myself and my husband are in no way religious and both have general anti- organised religion, particularly RC, views.
As far as I know, religion for admittance to schools is more of an issue in cities due to the high demand on places. Outside of cities and bigger towns it may not be an issue.
If there is a place in the school, once they have followed their enrolment policy, there is no reason to not give your child a place?
My son is only 2 so far, so I guess we're not at the age where it would be much of an issue.

Pete M.

ncmc wrote: »

Has anyone else here not christened their child/children and did they find it caused difficulty in their life?

In a word - No.

I have two kids, 8 & 14, neither christened, never had a spot of bother with either.

They go to the local national school and we've never experienced the tiniest bit of an issue.
Well my daughter went there and is now in the local secondary, again, no problem.

Other people may have, I honestly don't know, but neither me or the kid's Mum or the kids themselves have encountered any problems.

I'm even on the BoM of the school and that is fine too.

If someone has a problem with it, then that is their problem, not yours.

There are loads of children of different faiths (and none) out there these days, so it's fairly common. Having said that my two were the only non-Catholics in their classes, but they're actually happy about that.

We did go on holidays around the time of my daughter's classe's communion and my son was confirmed (as a Liverpool supporter) at Anfield last May, but that is just to give them something to look forward to instead of all the carry on that goes along with the religious ceremonies.

Both are happy wee agnostics as far as I can see.

Sweet_pea

I won't be getting my boy christened. As someone said it's all about your own priorities and I feel strongly about not having it done.

I may be choosing different education options anyway so that issue is irrelevant to me. I have relatives who changed their children religion to get them into their chosen school. I can completely understand why they this and it worked out exactly the way they wanted to. If academic achievement is a priority to you than it would make sense to want to ensure your child would get into your chosen school. However, I do strongly disagree that religion and education is so linked, I would think that the reason these schools preform better is to do with better funding.

To do it because relatives want you to seems strange to me too as you are the parent not them. It has been mention to me that someone in the fathers side would have a problem as if my baby died they wouldn't get into haven. If that was too happen, the least of my problems would be that someone thought my child was condemned to purgatory.

On the bullying aspect, to me that is the weakest argument for anything really. If you are worried your child could be bullied for whatever reason than you need to teach your child how to deal with bullying. Bullying can happen for any reason and to me it's wrong to teach them just to conform to the norm so that it may not happen. Unfortunately, as has been seen with teenage suicide due to bullying, they can match everyone else and still get bullied.

vitani

I didn't have my daughter christened. I thought about it for the school/grandparent reasons, but in the end, I couldn't bring myself to stand at the top of a church and promise something I wouldn't do.

I probably have an easier time of it though because I'm in an area with a few ET schools nearby and a multi-denominational school as well, so I'll have my choice the year after next.

huskerdu

My three kids have not been christened and they all attend the local very over subscribed Catholic National School,

They have never been bullied or shunned or have had any issues at school. Communion can be difficult, but we have navigated it twice successfully.

I, also, could not lie about my spiritual beliefs and have they baptised into a religion that I do not believe in.

Here is my problem with Irish society and the position of the Catholic church in religion.

- Lots of people have their children christened, when they are not practising Catholics, in order to make sure their kids can attend schools with a Catholic first enrolment policy,

- Therefore, the Catholic church can claim that 90% of Irish people are Catholic, and there is no problem with the fact that they control 90% of the schools.

- Therefore, more people have their kids christened to get into those schools....

It will never end unless more people stand up for their beliefs or the government grows some and admits that the religious stranglehold on education in Ireland is a problem.

pwurple

Easiest way to end that, if you see it as a problem, is to make the other schools perform better. Then people climb over eachother to get in there.

Not to try to bully parents into sending their children to inferior schools by insulting them. I can't really see that plan working out.

Systemic Risk

pwurple wrote: »

Because there is far more to religion in Ireland than the belief system. There is a our cultural background to consider. Contextualisation of our past history. Our folk stories and festivals are religious. Our hospitals and schools were set up by religious orders. The entire structure of irish society has been shaped by it down through history. Every conflict, every major event.

From a cultural perspective, I wouldn't find Joyce's books as funny if I didn't have that background. Or Fr Ted. I have an interest in religious art, religious music, religious architecture. The impact of Christianity on irish and worldwide culture is absolutely immense. I know all those can be looked at from a non-religious perspective... but I look at art from other religions and I find it slightly overwhelming and completely without context. It doesn't resonate with me, whereas the christian artifacts do. I easily recognise a Holy Mary statue, I know who the girl kneeling in front of her at grottos is without looking it up. It's not the same when I see a statue of a figure I don't recognise. I prefer some religion to no religion at all, to give a cultural perspective somewhere. We participate in traditions from various faiths, as there are angelicans, jewish, orthodox christian and muslim faiths within my family circle. Whether my children continue with christianity, change to another, or reject it completely is up to them. I hope I raise them to be critical thinkers, who can make their own decisions later. For now, they are included in something.

I know some people feel very strongly about removing religion from their lives, and that's fair enough. Work away, you can only follow your own leanings.

It is insulting to say that my decision is lazy or without thought, because you would prefer a religious school to be non-religious for you.

What might make more sense is to inquire further into why non-religious schools don't perform as well as the religious-patronage ones. Not just here, but in the UK and other jurisdictions. Why is there that difference, and how can that be improved in order to compete? Because at the end of the day, it IS a competition. For leaving cert points, for jobs, for higher wages etc.

Parents will usually make the choices which are best for their own children, rather than an abstract sense of societal change.

Sorry i didnt mean to be insulting to anyone. I have had a cold (maybe read man flu) the last few days and perhaps that has reflected in the grumpiness of my writing. I do understand all that you have said as i would not fall into the category of someone who wants to remove all religion from their lives. I would be someone who struggles with faith and has a bipolar relationship with the church.

However i do feel very strongly about separation of state and religion, especially in an educational sense. I did not mean that people should not send their children to a catholic school, i meant i believe they should not baptise them just in order to get into a good school. Again if my language was insulting i apologise.

I actually think that removal of religion from the public schools would be a good thing for the church. If parents want to raise their children catholic they would have to become much more involved in their religious upbringing. It could make parents faith stronger and strenghten family bonds.

Finally i will say that i understand that parents will do whatever they think will give their children the best possible life so lazy was clearly the wrong word to use. I meant that some people take it as an easy option to keep grandparents happy etc. Its just that if people dont stop baptising children when they themselves are not practicing catholics then the church will always have the stats to back up the claim that the vast majority of the students they teach are catholic. If this remains the case then i see no change any time soon.

How Strange

We've got two children and they won't be christened or indoctrinated into any religion by us. They can choose to participate in a religion when they're older if they wish.

We've applied for educate together schools in our area and we're hoping they get accepted into one of them.
I'd be very upset if I had to send them up an RC school as I find it ridiculous that so much school time is wasted on religious activities.

I firmly believe that church and state should be separate in a modern society and religion has absolutely no place in state funded schools.

I also don't want them coming home and telling me about holy god or something else their teacher had told them. I really want to keep them away from religious indoctrination as much as possible and the problem is that they would absorb a lot if they went to an RC school.

My husband is an atheist and I was a catholic but we're on the same page regarding our children. I've had to tell my mother to mind her own business on more than one occasion as she can't fathom not christening babies. I had a sister die as a baby from a congenital illness so I'm sensitive to my mothers feelings on the issue but I won't tolerate her telling my son about holy god etc. Thats overstepping the mark and disrespecting us as parents.

pwurple

Systemic Risk wrote: »

I actually think that removal of religion from the public schools would be a good thing for the church. If parents want to raise their children catholic they would have to become much more involved in their religious upbringing.

That is a nice theory, but all the current evidence from countries where there is separation, shows that schools generally perform better under a churches patronage.

Whether it is good for a church to isolate itself from everyday aspects of society, and confine itself to the home as you suggest above is a whole other question. As a moderate, I would strongly argue against it. Behind-closed-doors isolation of religion often leads to extreme fanaticism. This has not had good consequences either.

I meant that some people take it as an easy option to keep grandparents happy etc.

I know you're trying to say, ah it's not you... it's the OTHER people who have christenings without being total holy joes... and I appreciate that. However, I don't see anything wrong with people have respect for parents and grandparents and taking their opinions into consideration either. I do consider our parents and grandparents advice when it comes to raising children, they have had a whole lot more experience at it than newbie me! I place huge value on older people's input.

Sleepy

It's very easy not to. My daughter was never christened and attends the local Church of Ireland school.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

School must have changed since I was in it, because back then children got bullied, speaking from my own experience we had some atheists in the class who had to leave every time religion was on + never took part in the communion/confirmation...The were thought of as weird by the rest of the class..Young kids are v.cruel..This was my main concern not getting my child christened

Systemic Risk

pwurple wrote: »

That is a nice theory, but all the current evidence from countries where there is separation, shows that schools generally perform better under a churches patronage.

Whether it is good for a church to isolate itself from everyday aspects of society, and confine itself to the home as you suggest above is a whole other question. As a moderate, I would strongly argue against it. Behind-closed-doors isolation of religion often leads to extreme fanaticism. This has not had good consequences either.



I know you're trying to say, ah it's not you... it's the OTHER people who have christenings without being total holy joes... and I appreciate that. However, I don't see anything wrong with people have respect for parents and grandparents and taking their opinions into consideration either. I do consider our parents and grandparents advice when it comes to raising children, they have had a whole lot more experience at it than newbie me! I place huge value on older people's input.

On the first point I have put in bold I will just say correlation does not imply causation. There could be many factors, i.e. if there is separation between church and state these are private schools, therefore it would be better to look at the performance relative to other private schools. Also it could be argued that religious parents are stricter parents therefore that could be a factor that could come into play (not implying this is the case, just giving examples)

On the second bolded point, just because a childs religious upbringing is not taken care of in school it does not mean that it has to be behind closed doors. Religion classes for children after Sunday mass would mean that those parents who want their children to complete their communion and be raised as a catholic would have to regularly bring their children to mass. I would argue that the classes on Sunday would mean that the local catholic community would have stronger ties.

Finally listening to your parents for advice on parenting is great. Baptising them into a faith you dont practice or believe in just to keep your religious parents happy does not make sense in my opinion.

blondie990

We didn't get married in a church so if we have any children we won't be having them baptised.

My husband's parents aren't with us anymore and I think it will be a lot easier for my own parents to deal with because we didn't get married in a church so it'll make more sense for them in that way.

Can I ask, those of you who say you will baptise your kids into a religion you don't practice or have already baptised your kids into a religion you don't practice, if you are married, did you also get married in a church even though you don't practice religion?

mikom

"My grandfather voted Fianna Fail, so my father voted Fianna Fail, then because of that I voted Fianna Fail, and kiddo, you'll vote Fianna Fail as well".............