Is it difficult not to christen a baby?

pwurple

Systemic Risk wrote: »

On the first point I have put in bold I will just say correlation does not imply causation. There could be many factors, i.e. if there is separation between church and state these are private schools, therefore it would be better to look at the performance relative to other private schools. Also it could be argued that religious parents are stricter parents therefore that could be a factor that could come into play (not implying this is the case, just giving examples)

100% agree, I'd love to know what those factors are so they could be replicated across all types of schools. I think I even said it earlier in the thread. All I see when I look further into this though, is conjecture and guessing without any evidence. My grandfather (a teacher himself) always said that children who perform better academically are not from richer families, or are not more intelligent per se, it's from parents who take an interest.

And it could simply be that the parents who take an active interest in their children's education and performance, participate in and check homework, read the notes, ask what was learned today etc... also tend to also seek out and send to the schools with better results. Maybe it then becomes as self-fulfilling prophecy. Nothing to do with either funding or strictness.

Ideally non-faith and faith-based schools would not have this disparity, and people who don't have any belief or interest in religion wouldn't feel in any way obligated.

But as it is now, I wouldn't set my child up to be the guinea pig for that particular educational experiment.

eviltwin

blondie990 wrote: »

Can I ask, those of you who say you will baptise your kids into a religion you don't practice or have already baptised your kids into a religion you don't practice, if you are married, did you also get married in a church even though you don't practice religion?

I had my first child before I was married. I got married in a registry office. At the time she was born I had more or less given up on religion, hadn't been to a church in a few years and religion had no place in my life. I don't know why I gave in to pressure and had her christened, I wish I hadn't. I was very young and living at home and mentally very vulnerable and let myself be bullied into it. I've regretted it ever since not just because it allowed the church to use my daughter to bump up numbers - she's never been to church ever - but because not standing up for that one thing put into motion years of parental interference into her life.

pwurple

Systemic Risk wrote: »

Finally listening to your parents for advice on parenting is great. Baptising them into a faith you dont practice or believe in just to keep your religious parents happy does not make sense in my opinion.

I think this is utterly flippant and disingenuous. 'just to keep parents happy' is not the point I was making. They take other peoples experience and opinions into account, and form a decision based on that and various other factors.

Orion

It's not actually. I've known people who only baptised their own children to keep granny happy. We didn't do it but were put under pressure to get them baptised.

yellowlabrador

Judging by the amount of people of my age group who are virtually illiterate, a religious school should be your last choice in looking for academic excellence. They can recite the catechism though even if they don't understand it. Family background would be the main determining factor in how well children do. I think it's a myth that religious schools do better . it costs a lot more to send children to those schools, hence poor children fare badly in them. There can be subtle discrimination by staff towards children who can't afford the proper uniform or books and equipment needed. These children are shown very little sympathy.
My blood raged a couple of years ago when I heard what it was costing parents to put their children in the christmas play. Strange that the particular compulsory shoes were only available in the headmistresses' sister's shop????
They had to buy tights in certain colours, and jumpers and accessories. All to fullfill some grandiose stage setting. Religion is presumed to be about charity but remembering the amount of money we used to take to school for the poor, the missions etc. I often wonder where it all went to.:mad:

Systemic Risk

pwurple wrote: »

I think this is utterly flippant and disingenuous. 'just to keep parents happy' is not the point I was making. They take other peoples experience and opinions into account, and form a decision based on that and various other factors.

Ok pwurple I want to be clear on this. The original comment I made in this thread was in the context of the OP. The OP mentioned her husband would be inclined to christen the baby for an "easy life". She clarified this further by saying that the parents would be upset if they didnt because they are practising Catholics.

You then said "However, I don't see anything wrong with people have respect for parents and grandparents and taking their opinions into consideration either". I was only pointing out that in the context of the OP who is worried about their (the grandparents of the child) reaction to the baby not being baptised based on their own beliefs that I dont believe that someone should christen their baby on this basis just to keep their own parents happy. It was not an attack in any way on you or your decisions. This is just a discussion.

"Baptising them into a faith you dont practice or believe in just to keep your religious parents happy does not make sense in my opinion". This is what I said so I can see why there may be some confusion. It should read:

Baptising them into a faith one doesn't practice or believe in just to keep ones religious parents happy does not make sense in my opinion.

I was speaking in a general sense, not criticising you.

we'llallhavetea

my daughter was christened, did not want to do it but was really pressured into it, so much so that my mam and sister have openly admitted that they made me do it!! :mad: maybe they didn't realise i was serious about the whole atheist thing :P
my daughter is in third class in a catholic school and she does not take part in religion. only ever had one problem with one teacher who kept giving her religion work to do and then a religion book came home with her name on it. i had to actually flip the lid a bit and that was that, all done! no more trouble at all
last year was communion year, so on the day of the communion we jetted off to lanzarote for a week in the sun lanzarote beats jesus hands down
if you feel strongly about raising your child without religion, do it. it was extremely daunting to go through with it at the beginning and tbh the communion was absolutely loooming over me. but you know, just be open and honest with your child and all will be well. i am so happy that i had the balls to do it and my only regret is allowing myself to be coerced into having her christened.

Claire de Lune

Hi OP,

I heard the same segment on the radio yesterday. I got a little mad at Ray D'Arcy when he called the person a hypocrite for baptising the child in the first place, as I believe the person had no other choice than to baptise her child so that her/she could go to school.

I am in this position myself, no other choice. I come from an atheist background, my husband was raised catholic but hasn't gone to church since he was a teenager. We married in the registry office since Blondie asks. We decided not to baptise our child and give him the choice of what he wants to do.

Unfortunately this choice is now taken away from him as we have no other option than to baptise him to go to school.

There are 4 schools around where we live, a COI one (very small, huge waiting list, never considered it), an ET school (we are 179 on the waiting list, so basically zero chance) and 2 national catholic schools (both in our catchment area)

The 2 catholic schools enrolment policy is as follows :
1- Siblings
2 - Catholics from catchment area
3 - Catholics from outside the catchment area
4 - "Others"

We rang both schools asking what are realistically our chances for our son to get in as a non catholic and they both replied "very little" as they are busy schools and usually fill up before they reach number 4 above.

We enquired in neighbouring towns as well, pretty much the same as above, and even worst since we don't live in the catchment area of those schools.

So what are we supposed to do other than baptise him? I'd like to stand my ground like huskerdu says, but my childs education comes before my principles.

I will never believe in any God. My child is 4 and the school registration process starts in January for him to go to school in September, I have to start enquiring about getting him baptised. I hate myself for doing this but I have no other option. I feel bullied into religion.

eviltwin

Claire de Lune wrote: »

Hi OP,

I heard the same segment on the radio yesterday. I got a little mad at Ray D'Arcy when he called the person a hypocrite for baptising the child in the first place, as I believe the person had no other choice than to baptise her child so that her/she could go to school.

I am in this position myself, no other choice. I come from an atheist background, my husband was raised catholic but hasn't gone to church since he was a teenager. We married in the registry office since Blondie asks. We decided not to baptise our child and give him the choice of what he wants to do.

Unfortunately this choice is now taken away from him as we have no other option than to baptise him to go to school.

There are 4 schools around where we live, a COI one (very small, huge waiting list, never considered it), an ET school (we are 179 on the waiting list, so basically zero chance) and 2 national catholic schools (both in our catchment area)

The 2 catholic schools enrolment policy is as follows :
1- Siblings
2 - Catholics from catchment area
3 - Catholics from outside the catchment area
4 - "Others"

We rang both schools asking what are realistically our chances for our son to get in as a non catholic and they both replied "very little" as they are busy schools and usually fill up before they reach number 4 above.

We enquired in neighbouring towns as well, pretty much the same as above, and even worst since we don't live in the catchment area of those schools.

So what are we supposed to do other than baptise him? I'd like to stand my ground like huskerdu says, but my childs education comes before my principles.

I will never believe in any God. My child is 4 and the school registration process starts in January for him to go to school in September, I have to start enquiring about getting him baptised. I hate myself for doing this but I have no other option. I feel bullied into religion.

Just remember even if you do have him christened you can still choose to have him opt out of religion class.

How Strange

It's the hypocrisy of these situations that irritate me most. Our schools are funded through the Dept of Education yet we have this tyranny of the religious orders.

I really think we need to collectively grow up as a nation and sort this mess out. The head in the ground, let's go with the flow attitude is ridiculous and shows how immature we are as a state.

The state funded schools should be all inclusive. If every child has a right to education then the state funded schools should not be allowed to discriminate based on religious affiliation. If people want to be part of a school with specific acceptance criteria then let private schools provide that service.

pwurple

Claire de Lune wrote: »

There are 4 schools around where we live, a COI one (very small, huge waiting list, never considered it), an ET school (we are 179 on the waiting list, so basically zero chance) and 2 national catholic schools (both in our catchment area)

Some school HAS to take you in your catchment area. They cannot refuse you any place whatsoever.

Can i ask if you recently moved to the area? How come you were not higher up on any of the waiting lists?

Claire de Lune

pwurple wrote: »

Some school HAS to take you in your catchment area. They cannot refuse you any place whatsoever.

Can i ask if you recently moved to the area? How come you were not higher up on any of the waiting lists?

I don't know Pwurple, I'd like to believe you but what if the school is fills up before they reach the non catholic children? Our neighbours are Protestant, and could not get a place for their child in those schools last year They eventually found a place in a COI in a different town as the one in our town is really small and was full but their school run is not easy.

The ET school is very popular (I wonder if it's linked to the national schools around having a clear priority to catholic children) and has an excellent reputation. I registered my son when he was 2, as before that we were not sure we were going to stay in this area. Their enrolment policy is strictly first come first serve, even siblings are not guaranteed a place. The registration form stated "please note that the child must be born before registering"... this is insane, does that mean that I should have registered him on my way home from the hospital after giving birth?

Yes Evil Twin, I know I can have him opt out of religion classes, which I will do, and that just add to the contradiction, why so much emphasis on the baptismal cert when religion classes are optional. I know the church want to keep their numbers up to to justify their presence in schools, and I am disgusted I am going to be part of this.

I am not Irish so I think that makes it harder for me to accept the place religion takes in this country. My irish friends all have baptised their children because "it's the done thing" and "to keep the mammies happy" although their favorite topic of conversation is to bash the catholic church and they never go to church. They can't understand that I am so reluctant to baptise my son as " it's no big deal, just a bit of water"... I feel alone sometimes!!!

Big Bag of Chips

Claire de Lune wrote: »

"please note that the child must be born before registering"... this is insane, does that mean that I should have registered him on my way home from the hospital after giving birth?

No it means that you can't register your baby for the school when you are pregnant. The baby has to be born before the school will take their registration.

Crazy as it sounds there are (were) places where people were registering their child, as 'Baby' Murphy etc before the baby was born to hold places.

pwurple

ClairedeLune, Maybe need to go talk to them about the situation you are facing, and possibly your local counciller, rather than doing a baptism you don't want.

Competition for schools is high, I put my daughters name down in six schools while I was on maternity leave, mainly because we didn't know where we were going to be living... I covered a few catchment areas (using other peoples addresses, bold me!) . This is possibly what you are seeing too on waiting lists. Some parents will have put their child's name down in every school in the area to keep their options open.

SurferRosa

I'm a non-practicing Catholic, and my husband a non-practicing Protestant. I'm atheist, and he's agnostic.
We have 3 children, none of which are christened. My own parents don't mind (my dad atheist, my mam agnostic),and his parents whether they mind or not don't interfere, but are practicing Protestants, as are the rest of his family. My husband was actually God father for his niece this year as where they're from (Sweden), the "God father" does not need to take a religious role in the child's life.
I just couldn't bring myself to subscribe my child into something I didn't believe in. Say words and hear things that honestly freak me out. I do not believe my children were born sinners, and I just could not be a hypocrite and bring them in to church - despite the implications this may or may not have on their educational/social lives. I guess I was going to cross that bridge when I came to it, and also someone has to take a stand. (As in not be pressurised to Christen for the sole purpose of schooling and social acceptance).
My eldest has just started Junior Infants at the local (Catholic) Gaelscoil. I enrolled him when he was 8 weeks old! The staff there seem quite friendly and open minded, and accept all religions. (or none). They even say that the non-christened children can partake in Religion class, but obviously they just won' make their communion.
So that's what we're doing. This way our children can see for themselves how they feel about Catholicism/God. If they want to be christened, we have no problem supporting this.
When our eldest asks us questions, we just say people believe different things, no one knows which is right, and mammy and daddy happen to believe X. You can decide yourself what to believe.
So far everything is going fine, and all my friends that are religious do not seem to pass judgement on our beliefs or decisions!

Orion

pwurple wrote: »

Some school HAS to take you in your catchment area. They cannot refuse you any place whatsoever.

Can i ask if you recently moved to the area? How come you were not higher up on any of the waiting lists?

This is correct. One of the schools has to take you baptised or not. If none of them offer a place the DES Inspectorate will direct one of them to do so.

Chattastrophe!

As a matter of interest, do they do checks to ensure that the child was actually christened, and that the baptismal cert wasn't forged? (I'm not recommending this and wouldn't do it myself - just curious!)

Scaredy_Cat

Haven't read all the replies but we have 2 kids and we didn't christening them in to the Catholic religion (they will be raised neutral until they are 18 they can decide then what they want to do) we also did not get married in a church we had a civil ceremony. My husband would consider himself Catholic but I'm ex-Catholic. I thought we would get a bit of grief over the wedding as my parents inlaw I would consider to be very religious but they never once mentioned the fact it wasn't in a church, I think they knew me by then with my anti-religious rants over the years I have known them So I think they knew the kids wouldn't be christened.

I did hear that my local school did not accept a non-christened child this year so I rang them to enrol my lo for a few years time and when I mentioned she wasnt christened she said that was no problem as they had a non-christened child this year and a child of a different religion! I suspect there must have been some disagreement on allowing these kids but they must have back tracked. Of course I would rather she not go to a catholic school but we have no choice - EVERY school in the surrounding areas are catholic. She also did say that she wouldn't have to leave the room for religion class they just give them other work to do. I'm not 100% happy about it but sure what can you do!

I can't understand people who just christen their kids to please parents etc or if they don't believe in it themselves, I've had a few people make sly comments about "would you not just christen them and not be making a fuss" type of comments :rolleyes:

Also just to say I can honestly say I have not needed the church for any reason nor do I feel I'm missing out on anything, my friends will admit that they only go to church to bring their kids (usually just upping the frequency of attendance the year they are making their communion/confirmation) I have managed to get married and have kids and have been able to do so without any involement with the church. Also when I die I will still have no involement with them as hubbie has been instructed to have a non-religious funeral for me and cremation, the amount of people that can't seem to get their heads around this fact- that I won't need the church at some point in my life!!! - just boggles my brain but in reality I just think it's lack of knowledge, my friend originally years ago when I told her that I would never get married in a church said that I couldn't be legally married then, she just didn't realise there was such a thing as a civil wedding!

Chattastrophe!

Scaredy_Cat wrote: »

I can't understand people who just christen their kids to please parents etc or if they don't believe in it themselves, I've had a few people make sly comments about "would you not just christen them and not be making a fuss" type of comments :rolleyes:

My parents are very religious. When they start asking me about christening my child, I'm just going to say that I respect their faith and belief too much to make a mockery of it by making empty promises about it. Which is absolutely true, and I hope they understand and respect it ...

And if they don't, well, that's their problem. They had seven children to bring up as they saw fit; this is my child, and while I'll take on board any opinions, my boyfriend and I make the decisions. Simple as that, and they'll just have to accept it.

Claire de Lune

Thanks Orion, that's good to know! I assumed the DES Inspectorate could send us to any school outside the catchment and I would not like my son to go to school in a different town, so I didn't count of them. Great if they keep us in the catchment area!

@ Chattastrophe, I can't say that this thought hasn't entered my head....!!!

Claire de Lune

Orion wrote: »

This is correct. One of the schools has to take you baptised or not. If none of them offer a place the DES Inspectorate will direct one of them to do so.

Thanks Orion, that's good to know! I assumed the DES Inspectorate could send us to any school outside the catchment and I would not like my son to go to school in a different town, so I didn't count of them. Great if they keep us in the catchment area!

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

As a matter of interest, do they do checks to ensure that the child was actually christened, and that the baptismal cert wasn't forged? (I'm not recommending this and wouldn't do it myself - just curious!)

@ Chattastrophe, I can't say that this thought hasn't entered my head....!!!

Scaredy_Cat

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

My parents are very religious. When they start asking me about christening my child, I'm just going to say that I respect their faith and belief too much to make a mockery of it by making empty promises about it. Which is absolutely true, and I hope they understand and respect it ...

And if they don't, well, that's their problem. They had seven children to bring up as they saw fit; this is my child, and while I'll take on board any opinions, my boyfriend and I make the decisions. Simple as that, and they'll just have to accept it.

Glad to hear it, good on you! If only more people were true to their own beliefs (or non beliefs) and didn't just christen their kids for the sake of it or worrying about getting in to schools, then maybe there would be more call for non-religious schools.

byhookorbycrook

pwurple wrote: »

Some school HAS to take you in your catchment area. They cannot refuse you any place whatsoever.

Can i ask if you recently moved to the area? How come you were not higher up on any of the waiting lists?

Untrue.

pwurple

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Untrue.

Single word posts are my favourite. So helpful and informative!

shano1888

We are in a similar position as many here insofar as we are both non-practicing Catholics. We have decided not to christen our son (who is due to arrive in 3 weeks). I would feel quite hypocritical in doing so but I am having some doubts about the decision.

I have faith, I think, but I am one of the many disenfranchised 20/30 somethings who want nothing to do with Irish Catholicism in its current guise.

Anyway, we really want our son to have godparents. Not for any religious reason but because we have two people who we would love to nominate for the roles. Does anybody have any experience of this?

Chattastrophe!

shano1888 wrote: »

We are in a similar position as many here insofar as we are both non-practicing Catholics. We have decided not to christen our son (who is due to arrive in 3 weeks). I would feel quite hypocritical in doing so but I am having some doubts about the decision.

I have faith, I think, but I am one of the many disenfranchised 20/30 somethings who want nothing to do with Irish Catholicism in its current guise.

Anyway, we really want our son to have godparents. Not for any religious reason but because we have two people who we would love to nominate for the roles. Does anybody have any experience of this?

It might be worth your while looking into a humanist naming ceremony. That's something I'm considering myself.

liliq

A naming ceremony doesn't even have to be humanist. You could do totally your own thing and have 'fairy godparents'

byhookorbycrook

Ok, elaborating on the "untrue." If the schools are full and have not breached their policies ,they cannot be forced to take someone. It is the NEWB , not the inspectorate which would be charged with finding a school place for children who don't have one, but it does not have to be within a certain area. It is also important to point out the children do not legally have to be at school/home schooled until they are six.

sleepytrees

I won't be christening my son. ever. unless he wants to when 18. Educate together is non religious school. (I think)

iguana

My poor parents had me baptised as a baby without giving it a huge amount of thought. Neither has a huge faith and my dad actively despises the church but it was the 70s and not having a baby baptised was pretty much unthinkable. And at least 2 maybe 3 of my grandparents would have had a lot to say about it if they hadn't.

Yet I describe them as my poor parents in this regard because by hell did I make them suffer for it as a teenager. I wanted out of the church and had no way of defecting so was really angry that a religious decision had been made for me against my will as a baby. Whatever pressure my grandparents would have put on them had they chosen not to have me baptised just couldn't have compared to my upset and anger as a teenager. And at least I knew that they hadn't baptised me in the full knowledge of the crimes committed against children by the church, if they had, they'd probably still be hearing about it.

So as difficult as it can be to not baptise your child, though I didn't find it especially difficult with my son, it will be a lot more difficult to live with an angry, frustrated teenager if your child grows into someone who cares about religious integrity.