Is it difficult not to christen a baby?

whatdoicare

Ms2011 wrote: »

Bit OT but as it's coming up, what happens at Christmas if you've distanced yourself from the Catholic Church & decided not to Christening your child/ren. Do you still celebrate the day?

Christmas is actually a pagan festival for the winter solstice (hence why Newgrange is designed to light up at that time having been built a hell of a long time before Christianity made it to our shores). Jesus is officially recorded as having been born in September and it was changed by the Romans to fit in with our pagan festivals to entice us to join.

And we all know the Santa we all know and love is a product of the Coca cola company, right down to his red and white outfit.

So, yeah, Ill be celebrating the consumerist holiday, same as Valentines day, Easter and Halloween.

dharma200

Christmas is nothing to do with either Christianity or Islam but it does have it's origins in the midwinter festival and many other basically pagan rites but since much of it is a celebration of nature rather than religion everyone should be able to enjoy it and be happy together despite religion!

The ancient European pagans celebrated the midwinter festival and a number of other festivals long before Christianity ever existed!

Babylonians celebrated the feast of the Son of Isis with gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift giving and the goddess of fertility, love, and war.

The Romans held a festival on 25 December called “Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, celebrating their own god Sol Invictas – PAGAN!

The Persian god Mithras, the Syrian sun god Elah Gabal, the German Sol, the Greek Helios and the Mesopotamian Shamash. But also Saturnalia, honouring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. The law courts and schools were closed. No public business could be transacted an this is where the holidays originated - ALL PAGAN!

Just a wee note on all those important religious dudes born in the 25 th lol.....

Ill have a wee drink to the lot of them.....

as an aside my ever so catholic Italian granny told my mum me and my sister would be like 'dogs in the street with no name' because she wasn't christening us.
I think if you are not practising any religion or part of a church, and only doing it because it is the done thing, you are allowing the perpetuation of indoctrination to persist. X

Ms2011

So do you have to be a Pagan to celebrate Christmas, I'm not being smart, I'm just pointing out that we can all be guilty of picking certain traditions we 'like' to celebrate?

Chattastrophe!

Ms2011 wrote: »

So do you have to be a Pagan to celebrate Christmas, I'm not being smart, I'm just pointing out that we can all be guilty of picking certain traditions we 'like' to celebrate?

No one is saying you have to be pagan to celebrate Christmas - just making the point that it's not exclusively a Christian tradition, and people are free to celebrate it as they choose.

I don't see a thing wrong with picking certain traditions we want to celebrate and ignoring those we've no interest in - you say it like it's a bad thing!

For me, Christmas is about spending quality time with family and friends, good food, good drink, and presents for the kids. I choose not to celebrate either the Christian or the pagan aspects of it - however I may well end up telling my kids about them, from an educational viewpoint, so that they're aware of and respectful of what some other people believe.

whatdoicare

Ms2011 wrote: »

So do you have to be a Pagan to celebrate Christmas, I'm not being smart, I'm just pointing out that we can all be guilty of picking certain traditions we 'like' to celebrate?

About as much as you have to drink Coca cola to get presents from Santa.

RobbieTheRobber

Ms2011 wrote: »

Bit OT but as it's coming up, what happens at Christmas if you've distanced yourself from the Catholic Church & decided not to Christening your child/ren. Do you still celebrate the day?

Here is what I will do because I am not bound by any belief system.
I will continue to give gifts to who I wish when I want (as a lot of people give presents around the 25th I will choose to join in and continue with this tradition*).

I will have a large family dinner on the 25th and maybe again on the 26th with friends and extended family because these dates are national holidays in both Ireland and the UK and that means that a large portion of my family and friends will also have these days off.

I will make no mention of the historically questionable christ figure, nor will I mention any other religions figures( who as a previous poster has pointed out share the 25th as a day of worship).

So in summation I am saying I will share national holidays with my family and friends and as gift giving is common I will partake in that activity.

* winter solstice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

The Corinthian

whatdoicare wrote: »

Christmas is actually a pagan festival for the winter solstice (hence why Newgrange is designed to light up at that time having been built a hell of a long time before Christianity made it to our shores).

Actually, it's a mish-mash of pagan festivals, all mixed in together. Originally, I believe, it effectively replaced (or re-branded) the Roman festival of Saturnalia. Nonetheless, especially as Christianity spread northwards, it was superimposed on the important Winter Solstice festivals of the Celts and Germans.

Given this, I believe that some of the arguments given for the 25th December, are to do with 4th century theories about the date of his (immaculate) conception.

Jesus is officially recorded as having been born in September and it was changed by the Romans to fit in with our pagan festivals to entice us to join.

Nothing 'official' has every been written that show Jesus ever historically existed. I've no idea where the September date came from.

And we all know the Santa we all know and love is a product of the Coca cola company, right down to his red and white outfit.

Nope, they just invented the outfit - in reality he's based on the English concept of Father Christmas. Given this, I do think they helped to standardize him Worldwide.

So, yeah, Ill be celebrating the consumerist holiday, same as Valentines day, Easter and Halloween.

There's an (most likely) apocryphal story of a Japanese department store who sent a team of their employees to the US, in the 1920's, to learn about this consumer bonanza, known as Christmas.

They returned with their findings and the department store redecorated that December accordingly. Then they started receiving complaints from Christians and foreigners; for some reason a crucified Santa Claus did not property capture the spirit of the season.

Whether true or not, this story does illustrate the rather confused meaning of what Christmas means and whether the three little words, uttered throughout the season, that best describe it are "I love you" or "cash or credit?"

whatdoicare

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nothing 'official' has every been written that show Jesus ever historically existed. I've no idea where the September date came from.

I quickly googled about it (of course, I agree Jesus may or may not have been an actual person) and here's an interesting piece based on constellations and details described in the bible and time of year Shepards would have been in the fields as to why it's believed Jesus would have been born in September and also a few years earlier than believed (new information to me).

http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/was-jesus-born-sept-11-3-b-c/

Nope, they just invented the outfit - in reality he's based on the English concept of Father Christmas. Given this, I do think they helped to standardize him Worldwide.

Actually, St Nicholas originated in Turkey- "The original St. Nicholas lived in southwestern Turkey in the 4th century. As the bishop of Myra he was credited with doing a number of miracles involving sailors and children. After his death this led him to become the patron saint of both groups as well as for unmarried girls. As a saint he was given his own "feast day" that was celebrated on December 6th."

Here's why Santa and Christmas are linked:

At about the same time Nicholas lived, Pope Julius I decided to establish a date for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. As the actual time of year for this event was unknown, the Pope decided to assign the holiday to December 25th. There had long been a pagan midwinter festival at this time of year and the Pope hoped to use the holiday to christianize the celebrations.

And I read somewhere that it was the Dutch who brought St Nic to America and the Scandanavians who added the reindeer.

http://www.unmuseum.org/santa.htm

There's an (most likely) apocryphal story of a Japanese department store who sent a team of their employees to the US, in the 1920's, to learn about this consumer bonanza, known as Christmas.

They returned with their findings and the department store redecorated that December accordingly. Then they started receiving complaints from Christians and foreigners; for some reason a crucified Santa Claus did not property capture the spirit of the season.

Whether true or not, this story does illustrate the rather confused meaning of what Christmas means and whether the three little words, uttered throughout the season, that best describe it are "I love you" or "cash or credit?"

I believe this story is true but in America and not Japan - it was a protest from Artist Robert Candella about the true meaning of Christmas. He sent Christmas cards with a photo of crucified Santa in 1997.

lazygal

We haven't christened either of our children. Beyond some mention of a ceremony (from my parents) when the first was born, it hasn't been a problem so far. Not having a church wedding and not being swayed by apocalyptic mentions of school places and being left out of communions helped too. We have applied to the local ET school and I think we should be ok, but barring that the local catholic school will take them no problem. We'll deal with the indoctrination side of schooling if and when we need to - we both went to Catholic schools for primary and secondary and are atheist now so we're not overly worried. What will annoy me is the time in second and sixth class given over to religious sacramental prep, but we'll cross that bridge if and when we need to.

Cabaal

Ms2011 wrote: »

Bit OT but as it's coming up, what happens at Christmas if you've distanced yourself from the Catholic Church & decided not to Christening your child/ren. Do you still celebrate the day?

Come on,
What kids think Christmas as the birth of some kid as their first answer if you asked them what came to mind when you said the word Christmas,

Very few I'd wager!,

The VAST majority of kids see Christmas as a man in a big red suit (thanks Coca Cola/Macy's) who travels at the speed of light around the earth on flying rein deers giving out presents.

Even if you go with St Nicholas, the actual image of Santa Clause that kids have and that parents show to their kids is so so soooo far from the St Nicholas (the greek bishop) story its no longer even religious.

Most of the other stuff such as a celebration in December stem from pagan festivals that already existed,

Cause it sure isn't the birth of Jesus, even if such a kid existed he wouldn't have been born on 25th Dec based on all the writings.....in reality it would have been anytime but December.

In short, Christmas is so very far from a religious thing,

iguana

Christmas is just the current name of the mid-winter festival that European humans have been celebrating since pre-history for sound agricultural and psychological reasons. While modern food production and storage methods have lessened the importance of the former, the latter is still a very important factor in coping with the cold and darkness of the season. As despite the amazing technology which we have at present that allows us consistent year round warmth and light in our homes, along with relative ease of transport, winter is a depressing and isolating time compared to the rest of the year and the mid-winter celebration helps us get through it happily. It's a wonderful display of the triumph of human imagination and resilience and there is nothing hypocritical about non-religious humans celebrating a holiday manufactured by humans.

clairefontaine

It's also about family reunions and reconnections. It's the central focal point of the year where people go home.

Having turned from a tale about homelessness and poverty into one of domesticity and wealth, it ushers in the end of the year in a sparkling art of remembering.

Of course this sparkling time, also has its shadows (very sad time for many) but for children, its a celebration of innocence, as childhood is the only time you believe you are good, just because you exist.

Ms2011

Wherever the origins or for whatever the reasons for Christmas coming about there is no denying it is heavily embedded in Christianity, in Ireland especially, the answers in the question "Christ"mas.
For what it's worth I've no problem with people picking & choosing what traditions they like to celebrate just like I don't see any problem with anyone Christening their child because it's tradition rather than being devoted Christians.

pwurple

Cabaal wrote: »

In short, Christmas is so very far from a religious thing,

It depends, there are some fairly religious aspects.

Is there a crib in the house, or do you visit one? Is there an Advent calendar? A lot of Christmas carols would be fairly holy in content too... But if you stick to the presents and eating like a mad yoke, I wouldn't see it as particularly religious, so I wouldn't worry.

People can choose what they want to do, most people are not bothered either way. We're christian, and still celebrate Diwali and Hanukkah with our friends and family.

It's mainly only the ex-catholics who go on about christian's not being strict enough for their liking all year long, who might get a bit of a raised eyebrow if they also open windows on an advent calendar while playing 'Silent Night, Holy Night' in the background. Other than those guys though, nobody else really cares. The more the merrier in celebrations.

Cabaal

Ms2011 wrote: »

Wherever the origins or for whatever the reasons for Christmas coming about there is no denying it is heavily embedded in Christianity, in Ireland especially, the answers in the question "Christ"mas.

For what it's worth I've no problem with people picking & choosing what traditions they like to celebrate just like I don't see any problem with anyone Christening their child because it's tradition rather than being devoted Christians.

You do know the pagans came first right? The Christians stole there festivals.

If you want to believe in a magical light speed traveling man and his animals that gives your kid presents then you don't in anyway have to subscribe to a religious faith. You give zero power to the catholic church or any religion by believing it.

In short, using the term Christmas makes you no more religious or a hypocrite when it comes to Christmas then a person who uses the word Thursday but doesn't believe in the god Thor.

We all call it Thursday but we don't see the day in celebration or in honor of the god Thor (but yet thats where it comes from), its a word. Nothing more...the same as the word Christmas

If you want to christian your kid then you swear to that faith that you will raise your kid in that faith, that you believe in a big bad demon (the devil) and that you and your kid will go to mass and all that goes with it.

By christening your kid you give even more power to the catholic church in Ireland as they can claim x Catholics live in y area and they can claim this as backup for keeping a catholic ethos school/hospital or whatever. In short, numbers equals power on their books.

Very different things,

iguana

Ms2011 wrote: »

Wherever the origins or for whatever the reasons for Christmas coming about there is no denying it is heavily embedded in Christianity, in Ireland especially, the answers in the question "Christ"mas.
For what it's worth I've no problem with people picking & choosing what traditions they like to celebrate just like I don't see any problem with anyone Christening their child because it's tradition rather than being devoted Christians.

There is denying because it is completely objectively the other way around. Christianity embedded itself into the mid-winter celebration. If Christians want to celebrate their religion as part of the mid-winter celebration, that's their prerogative but that celebration isn't exclusively theirs.

On the other hand, baptising your child perpetuates the political influence of a religious organisation which has an ongoing impact for everyone and leads to the discrimination of many religious and non-religious minorities in regards to school places and quality of education.

pwurple

Some of us want to continue a catholic ethos in schools and hospitals.

Cabaal

pwurple wrote: »

Some of us want to continue a catholic ethos in schools and hospitals.

ah ok, so that explains why you having no problem with people's double standards when swearing to a faith when christening their kid.

You get the numbers and the power that comes with them, but they don't have to bother with the mass stuff and you get to keep things the way you want them,

Safe in the knowledge that people with no actual belief in the catholic faith will continue to have their freedoms and rights stepped on when it comes to education and health.

Nice
:rolleyes:

On a side note, does this not mean that you have no problem with telling people its ok for them to lie to your god?
By your own faith are you then condemning such people to hell and perhaps yourself for being ok with people lieing to your god? Not very christian.

RobbieTheRobber

pwurple wrote: »

Some of us want to continue a catholic ethos in schools and hospitals.

What do you define as a catholic ethos?

clairefontaine

iguana wrote: »

There is denying because it is completely objectively the other way around. Christianity embedded itself into the mid-winter celebration. If Christians want to celebrate their religion as part of the mid-winter celebration, that's their prerogative but that celebration isn't exclusively theirs.

On the other hand, baptising your child perpetuates the political influence of a religious organisation which has an ongoing impact for everyone and leads to the discrimination of many religious and non-religious minorities in regards to school places and quality of education.

That really has more to do with the Irish constitution and the obligation of the state to teach religion in schools.

ezra_pound

Ms2011 wrote: »

Wherever the origins or for whatever the reasons for Christmas coming about there is no denying it is heavily embedded in Christianity, in Ireland especially, the answers in the question "Christ"mas.
For what it's worth I've no problem with people picking & choosing what traditions they like to celebrate just like I don't see any problem with anyone Christening their child because it's tradition rather than being devoted Christians.

It's pretty embedded in pagan custom actually. Xmas ham Xmas trees mistletoe yule logs. What is christian about it? Midnight mass?

Ms2011

Seems to me though that people are using the 'pagan' & 'mid-winter festivel' angle on Christmas so they can stick their heads in the sand & ignore the pink elephant in the room which is the huge Catholic presents in the holiday.

ezra_pound

Ms2011 wrote: »

Seems to me though that people are using the 'pagan' & 'mid-winter festivel' angle on Christmas so they can stick their heads in the sand & ignore the pink elephant in the room which is the huge Catholic presents in the holiday.

Is gift giving catholic? The romans used to give gifts to children and the poor in saturnia so...

pwurple

Cabaal wrote: »

ah ok, so that explains why you having no problem with people's double standards when swearing to a faith when christening their kid.

You get the numbers and the power that comes with them, but they don't have to bother with the mass stuff and you get to keep things the way you want them,

Safe in the knowledge that people with no actual belief in the catholic faith will continue to have their freedoms and rights stepped on when it comes to education and health.

Nice
:rolleyes:

On a side note, does this not mean that you have no problem with telling people its ok for them to lie to your god?
By your own faith are you then condemning such people to hell and perhaps yourself for being ok with people lieing to your god? Not very christian.

Hmm, and is personal attacks and flaming me the usual standard for a moderator? Nice yourself.

My conscience is perfectly clear on schooling, my family will more than likely be attending a COI school, even though we are baptising RC. So no place will be denied any child on our part.

Btw, all faiths and non faiths alike are entitled to set up their own schools if there is a demand. All the internet soapboxing doesn't get it done though, you actually have to go out and do it. Much as the christians did, buying land, orgnaising, donating etc.

January

pwurple wrote: »

Hmm, and is personal attacks and flaming me the usual standard for a moderator? Nice yourself.

My conscience is perfectly clear on schooling, my family will more than likely be attending a COI school, even though we are baptising RC. So no place will be denied any child on our part.

Btw, all faiths and non faiths alike are entitled to set up their own schools if there is a demand. All the internet soapboxing doesn't get it done though, you actually have to go out and do it. Much as the christians did, buying land, orgnaising, donating etc.

Cabaal is not a moderator in this forum, which means (s)he is a normal poster here, his/her moderator status does not come into posts here. For what it's worth I do not see any personal attacks in his/her posts at the moment. They are attacking the post not the poster which is part of the charter. If you have a problem with a post, report it, rather than replying smartly on thread. If one of the mods finds anything wrong with it we will take the appropriate action.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

Some of us want to continue a catholic ethos in schools and hospitals.

Why? I can understand your faith is important to you, and probably no more than if you were ill, and I don't think anyone would want to deny you access to your priest or anything else but why should someone like me who isn't involved in the Church have my choices impacted by the faith of others? Respect for all has to include ALL. Its not a lot to ask.

coffee_cake

ezra_pound wrote: »

Is gift giving catholic? The romans used to give gifts to children and the poor in saturnia so...

And of course christmas trees are forbidden in the bible. But sure don't let that stop anyone

ezra_pound

bluewolf wrote: »

And of course christmas trees are forbidden in the bible. But sure don't let that stop anyone

They're not forbifdden in the bible. The point is that they dont have a Christian origin. Rather they are originally a pagan custom.

clairefontaine

bluewolf wrote: »

And of course christmas trees are forbidden in the bible. But sure don't let that stop anyone

How could Christmas trees be forbidden in he Bible, when the Bible's historical context is a desert and the tradition of the Christmas tree originates in Germany?

I don't recall any references to evergreen trees.

coffee_cake

clairefontaine wrote: »

How could Christmas trees be forbidden in he Bible, when the Bible's historical context is a desert and the tradition of the Christmas tree originates in Germany?

I don't recall any references to evergreen trees.

Just a little joke based on Jeremiah:
This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter


Sorry for offtopicness, if any