Treatment of civilians during 1916 by RIC/Army

tdv123

I never heard about this before until recently but an officer called Bowen Colthurst summarily executed 6 civilians including two pro=British.

General Maxell was sent a telegram to arrest Colthurst but refused. Clear double standards there.

Was there any other incidents like this during the rising? Is there any estimate of how many civilians were killed by rebels & how many by the British?

Judgement Day

There's all sorts of facts and figures out there: Google wikipedia etc. but don't take everything you read as fact. Bowen-Colthurst, depending on who you believe, was bad or mad, and was locked away in Broadmoor Mental Asylum for several years before being allowed to emigrate to Canada.

tdv123

Thanks but wiki only says how many civilians died. It does not mention who they were killed by.

tdv123

On wiki (I know but) it says he was in an asylum for 20 months. And was given a pension on release.

johnny_doyle

get yourself a copy of the 1916 Rebellion Handbook. Goes through the trial of Bowen-Colthurst, the trial of Sgt Flood etc plus details of various actions, deaths, burials, arrests etc.

Bowen-Colthurst faced 6 charges relating to 3 murders/manslaughter. He was found guilty on 3 of the murder charges.

LennoxR

The worst incidence was the North King Street massacre in which 15 civilians were killed by the British Army.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2012/04/13/the-north-king-street-massacre-dublin-1916/

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

http://www.theirishstory.com/2012/04/13/the-north-king-street-massacre-dublin-1916/

are you happy about the accuracy of the information presented in this article?

johnny_doyle

An example of an RIC Sgt giving out poor treatment to a civilian appears in my wife's family.

Her great uncle William Patrick O'Brien from Galbally, Co Limerick was arrested in Queenstown after the Rising although he took no part in any actions during the Rising itself.

He gets a mention in the following debate in Westminster (he wasn't suffering from TB as suggested)
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1916/jun/01/arrests

Apparently beaten up by an RIC Sgt just after his arrest, ended up in Wakefield, released in November 1916 and subsequently died as a result of the beating and poor conditions during transportation and imprisonment. The RIC Sgt was later shot and killed by William's brother John Joe during the action in which Sean Wall was killed. This appears to have been a coincidence rather than a deliberate act of revenge.

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0600.pdf#page=41
http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1647.pdf#page=35

kabakuyu

johnny_doyle wrote: »

are you happy about the accuracy of the information presented in this article?

Don't know anything about this incident, but its interesting that only 3 of the 15 alleged victims are named,Walsh,Bealen and Healy.Is there any other souce that may have the names of the deceased?

johnny_doyle

Paul O'Brien's book Crossfire has a chapter called Bloody Murder that gives names and ages.

The 1916 Rebellion Handbook focuses on the murder/inquest of Patrick Bealen and James Healy but the names of those killed in North King St can be seen in the list of 250 buried in Glasnevin and 49 buried in Deans Grange. A number of men from North King St appear in the list of those arrested and deported to England.

LennoxR

johnny_doyle wrote: »

are you happy about the accuracy of the information presented in this article?

Yes, why?

johnny_doyle

mainly this passage which is incorrect in terms of the cellar and number shot

"the famous pacifist, Francis Sheehy Skeffington, who had been trying to organize “citizen police”, to stop the looting, was taken to a cellar and shot along with six others by an officer named Bowen Colthurst at Portobello barracks"

it references Charles Townshend's book incorrectly. Townshend (p193/194) states Sheehy Skeffington was taken to the yard and shot alongside the 2 journalists, Dickson and McIntyre. The NLI has a part of the 1916 Handbook online touching on the trial of Bowen-Colthurst and the murder of Sheehy Skeffington which also states yard.

http://www.nli.ie/1916/pan0291.jpgfjb10_JF__Casualties_FJ_10_JF_02_FJ_full.html

While Max Caulfield's book does rank Sheppard as a Major, the 1916 Handbook has him as a Captain. This is echoed in my research which shows he was promoted to temporary Captain on the 2nd April 1916 (having originally been commissioned as a 2nd Lt in January 1915). He was discharged from the army in 1917 as a result of the wounds received in Dublin. At no point did he attain the rank of Major ie he was a green behind the ears officer with no combat experience (unlike Bowen-Colthurst who had 15 years in the army and combat experience in France)

The linkage to the events at Croke Park where many will possibly have in mind the Rolls Royce armoured car that trundled onto the pitch and opened fire with a machine gun. The armoured car used in North King St and surrounds was one of the improvised lorries from Guinness and did not carry a machine gun. The putting of North King St murders on a par with the murders at Croke Park is a big leap, as heinous as both events were. Penning a crowd in a stadium and opening up with a machine gun and small arms is on a different level.

The last line of the article is odd when most of the literature around indicates that those who we know to definitely have been murdered (as opposed to any caught in cross fire) were shot out of sight of witnesses :

"Cold comfort this, though, to the families of the men shot before their eyes in a northside Dublin slum street in April 1916."

There are copies of the full ballad mentioned in the article available to view online from Trinity and the NLI

http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=SamuelsBox5_0599

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000510589

LennoxR

johnny_doyle wrote: »

mainly this passage which is incorrect in terms of the cellar and number shot

"the famous pacifist, Francis Sheehy Skeffington, who had been trying to organize “citizen police”, to stop the looting, was taken to a cellar and shot along with six others by an officer named Bowen Colthurst at Portobello barracks"

it references Charles Townshend's book incorrectly. Townshend (p193/194) states Sheehy Skeffington was taken to the yard and shot alongside the 2 journalists, Dickson and McIntyre. The NLI has a part of the 1916 Handbook online touching on the trial of Bowen-Colthurst and the murder of Sheehy Skeffington which also states yard.

http://www.nli.ie/1916/pan0291.jpgfjb10_JF__Casualties_FJ_10_JF_02_FJ_full.html

While Max Caulfield's book does rank Sheppard as a Major, the 1916 Handbook has him as a Captain. This is echoed in my research which shows he was promoted to temporary Captain on the 2nd April 1916 (having originally been commissioned as a 2nd Lt in January 1915). He was discharged from the army in 1917 as a result of the wounds received in Dublin. At no point did he attain the rank of Major ie he was a green behind the ears officer with no combat experience (unlike Bowen-Colthurst who had 15 years in the army and combat experience in France)

The linkage to the events at Croke Park where many will possibly have in mind the Rolls Royce armoured car that trundled onto the pitch and opened fire with a machine gun. The armoured car used in North King St and surrounds was one of the improvised lorries from Guinness and did not carry a machine gun. The putting of North King St murders on a par with the murders at Croke Park is a big leap, as heinous as both events were. Penning a crowd in a stadium and opening up with a machine gun and small arms is on a different level.

The last line of the article is odd when most of the literature around indicates that those who we know to definitely have been murdered (as opposed to any caught in cross fire) were shot out of sight of witnesses :

"Cold comfort this, though, to the families of the men shot before their eyes in a northside Dublin slum street in April 1916."

There are copies of the full ballad mentioned in the article available to view online from Trinity and the NLI

http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=SamuelsBox5_0599

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000510589

Small details. The point is that 15 civilians were shot or bayoneted to death by the British Army in North King Street in 1916.

Personally I would say the North King Street killing were worse than the Croke Park shootings, as they were done in cold blood.

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

The point is that 15 civilians were shot or bayoneted to death by the British Army in North King Street in 1916.

the article starts off with a note about 15 being shot or bayoneted but states in a side bar

"Fifteen male civilians were shot in their homes along North King street by the South Staffordshire Regiment."

with no mention of bayonets. There is no mention of bayonets in the ballad from 1916 (probably because it has nothing to do with the North King St murders and the author has possibly been a little off the mark attributing a passage from a ballad about the executions in Kilmainham to the murders at North King St).

The Ned Daly webpage referenced re the 3 shot at 170, the 2 killed at 172, the 2 shot at 174, the 4 shot at 27 plus the 2 shot at 177 (is that 15 yet?) mentions that

"Thirteen men were shot dead in their houses."

but states nothing about bayonets at all.

The article also states that there was a Court Martial after the murders at Bachelor's Walk. Not quite correct. There was an inquest and we know from this that bayonets were used on the crowd and that one of the dead, James Brennan, suffered a bayonet wound and a gunshot wound.


It's not a good article re the murders at North King St.

tdv123

LennoxR wrote: »

The worst incidence was the North King Street massacre in which 15 civilians were killed by the British Army.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2012/04/13/the-north-king-street-massacre-dublin-1916/

Yeah I only found out about that a few days ago from a different source, pretty shocking stuff alrite. That was even more than civilians killed in the Bloody Sunday during the WOI.

Anyone know if much civilians were killed by the Rebel Forces in 1916?

LennoxR

johnny_doyle wrote: »

the article starts off with a note about 15 being shot or bayoneted but states in a side bar

"Fifteen male civilians were shot in their homes along North King street by the South Staffordshire Regiment."

with no mention of bayonets. There is no mention of bayonets in the ballad from 1916 (probably because it has nothing to do with the North King St murders and the author has possibly been a little off the mark attributing a passage from a ballad about the executions in Kilmainham to the murders at North King St).

The Ned Daly webpage referenced re the 3 shot at 170, the 2 killed at 172, the 2 shot at 174, the 4 shot at 27 plus the 2 shot at 177 (is that 15 yet?) mentions that

"Thirteen men were shot dead in their houses."

but states nothing about bayonets at all.

The article also states that there was a Court Martial after the murders at Bachelor's Walk. Not quite correct. There was an inquest and we know from this that bayonets were used on the crowd and that one of the dead, James Brennan, suffered a bayonet wound and a gunshot wound.


It's not a good article re the murders at North King St.

They used bayonets they didn't use bayonets, it's a different ballad, he was a Colonel, not a major etc.

Whatever about that article I think you're missing the point re the British Army's killing of civilian in Easter week 1916, no?

LennoxR

For the record for anyone who doubts that this massacre took place.

North Kings Street civilian casualties from Paul O’Brien, ‘Crossfire’, p94-96


1 Thomas Hickey 38 170 N King St
2 Christopher Hickey 16 170 N King St (father and son)
3 Peter Connolly 39 170 North King St
(These three bodies had bayonet marks indicating they were killed with the bayonet)
4 Patrick Bealen 177 N King St
5 James Healy 177 N King St
6 Michael Nunan, (34), 174 N King St
7 George Ennis 174 North King Street.
8 Edward Dunne (39), 91 North King Street
8 John Walsh (34). 172 North King Street
10 Michael Hughes (50) 172 North King St

11 Peter J. Lawless (21), 27 North King Street.
12 James McCarthy, 36, 27 North King Street
13 James Finnegan 40, 27 North King St
14 Patrick Hoey, 25 27 North King Street
(All 4 worked at Louth Dairy in that house)

15. In addition John Biernes was shot dead by Crown forces on nearby Coleraine Street.

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

They used bayonets they didn't use bayonets, it's a different ballad, he was a Colonel, not a major etc.

Whatever about that article I think you're missing the point re the British Army's killing of civilian in Easter week 1916, no?

I don't think I said the massacre didn't take place but have pointed out that the article quoted is full of numerous errors.

Good that you've now gone and done some research and listed the names of those killed. A much better contribution.

johnny_doyle

some light reading re the murder of Sheehy Skeffington and the 2 journalists can be found in the following Royal Commission report from 1916. Nice note at the beginning about Prohibited by(?) Censor

http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview/?pi=nla.aus-vn427856-s1-v

johnny_doyle

A book about the life and work of Ernest Kavanagh, one of the civilian casualties of the Easter Rising with some info on the page re his death :

http://www.mercierpress.ie/irish-books/artist_of_the_revolution_ernest_kavanagh/

A young lad by the name of Charles Kavanagh, 4 North King St, died of a gun shot wound received during the Rising.

Max Caulfield's book The Easter Rebellion (page 83) mentions a female child being shot and killed instantly on North King Street early on in the Rising by a Lancer firing a carbine. Have yet to put a name to this casualty. A witness statement on BMH website suggests a child on Church St (which would possibly be 16year old William O'Neill of 93 Church St)

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1760.pdf#page=3

johnny_doyle

Joe Duffy at RTE is doing some research on children killed during the Rising. He tells me that the child killed on North King St by the Lancer was 2 year old John Francis Foster based on text in "Dublin's Fighting Story".

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

North Kings Street civilian casualties from Paul O’Brien, ‘Crossfire’, p94-96

1 Thomas Hickey 38 170 N King St
2 Christopher Hickey 16 170 N King St (father and son)
3 Peter Connolly 39 170 North King St
(These three bodies had bayonet marks indicating they were killed with the bayonet)

Re-reading O'Brien's passage in Crossfire, he doesn't actually state that they were killed by the bayonet, only that they showed bayonet marks. This tallies with the description in the 1916 Rebellion Handbook.

Desmond Ryan's book "The Rising" carries a description of the capture of the Hickeys and Connolly at approximately 6am on the Saturday through to their cold blooded murder between 10am and 10:30am that morning from a Mrs Kate Kelly who was with them at the time. She wasn't in the room when they were killed but mentions that shots rang out. It also carries a description from Mrs Hickey on seeing the bodies for the first time at approximately 5pm on the Sunday. She makes no mention of bayonet wounds on any of the 3; nor does she mentioned gun shot wounds. Mrs Connolly was brought to see the 3 bodies later on Sunday. She mentions "my poor husband was greatly marked and had several great gashes around the neck and head which appeared to be bayonet wounds" but nothing about gun shot wounds.

In the same chapter, Mrs Lawless describes the scene at Louth Dairy where the 4 men were shot on the Saturday morning. She returned in the evening and describes "brains had bespattered the curtains" and Patrick Hoey's "head was burst open and macerated".

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

For the record for anyone who doubts that this massacre took place.

North Kings Street civilian casualties from Paul O’Brien, ‘Crossfire’, p94-96

1 Thomas Hickey 38 170 N King St
2 Christopher Hickey 16 170 N King St (father and son)
3 Peter Connolly 39 170 North King St
(These three bodies had bayonet marks indicating they were killed with the bayonet)
4 Patrick Bealen 177 N King St
5 James Healy 177 N King St
6 Michael Nunan, (34), 174 N King St
7 George Ennis 174 North King Street.
8 Edward Dunne (39), 91 North King Street
8 John Walsh (34). 172 North King Street
10 Michael Hughes (50) 172 North King St

11 Peter J. Lawless (21), 27 North King Street.
12 James McCarthy, 36, 27 North King Street
13 James Finnegan 40, 27 North King St
14 Patrick Hoey, 25 27 North King Street
(All 4 worked at Louth Dairy in that house)

15. In addition John Biernes was shot dead by Crown forces on nearby Coleraine Street.

I see this list has been added to the article as an addendum and that a number of edits have been made e.g.

"Cold comfort this, though, to the families of the men shot before their eyes in a northside Dublin slum street in April 1916."

now reads

"Cold comfort this, though, to the families of the men shot, mostly in their own homes, in a northside Dublin slum street in April 1916."

Even with the re-write, a shoddy article.

The data re the Bachelors Walk figures is at odds with the authors own book.

tac foley

tdv123 wrote: »

...the Bloody Sunday during the WOI.

Explain WOI, please? Do you mean War of Independence?

tac

johnny_doyle

while the blog entry re the events at North King St appears to be error prone, it's not the only one out there that carries dud information. This blog entry, by a chap who claims to do tours relating to the Rising, deals with the treatment of DMP and civilians by the rebels but gets a bit carried away and careless with data

http://dublinloyaltours.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/dmp-civic-duty-in-time-of-crisis-1916.html

kabakuyu

johnny_doyle wrote: »

while the blog entry re the events at North King St appears to be error prone, it's not the only one out there that carries dud information. This blog entry, by a chap who claims to do tours relating to the Rising, deals with the treatment of DMP and civilians by the rebels but gets a bit carried away and careless with data

http://dublinloyaltours.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/dmp-civic-duty-in-time-of-crisis-1916.html

He probably makes a nice living from spouting BS.:rolleyes:

LennoxR

johnny_doyle wrote: »

while the blog entry re the events at North King St appears to be error prone, it's not the only one out there that carries dud information. This blog entry, by a chap who claims to do tours relating to the Rising, deals with the treatment of DMP and civilians by the rebels but gets a bit carried away and careless with data

http://dublinloyaltours.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/dmp-civic-duty-in-time-of-crisis-1916.html

You know I stopped bothering replying here, but re the 'dud information' you have been going on and on and pointed to nothing substantive.

You said there weren't 15 killed. There were.
You said it wasn't more than the Croke Park shootings. It was.
You said bayonets weren't used. They were.

johnny_doyle

LennoxR wrote: »

You know I stopped bothering replying here, but re the 'dud information' you have been going on and on and pointed to nothing substantive.

You said there weren't 15 killed. There were.
You said it wasn't more than the Croke Park shootings. It was.
You said bayonets weren't used. They were.

thanks for your feedback and for your help with getting some of the errors on that blog changed. A few more changes to go though.

tdv123

tac foley wrote: »

tdv123 wrote: »

...the Bloody Sunday during the WOI.

Explain WOI, please? Do you mean War of Independence?

tac

Sorry ye, I mean the War of Independence.

johnny_doyle

the error prone blog article re North King St originally stated

"the famous pacifist, Francis Sheehy Skeffington, who had been trying to organize “citizen police”, to stop the looting, was taken to a cellar and shot along with six others by an officer named Bowen Colthurst at Portobello barracks"

The cellar has now been filled in and the blog updated to

"Francis Sheehy Skeffington, who had been trying to organize “citizen police”, to stop the looting, was shot along with six others by an officer named Bowen Colthurst at Portobello barracks."

I'm only able to find info re Sheehy Skeffington and potentially 4 other murders linked to Bowen Colthurst. Stumped re the other 2 of the 6 so far.

The journalists Dickson and MacIntyre/McIntyre were illegally executed with Sheehy-Skeffington in a yard at Portobello Barracks. Teenager James Coade was executed in cold blood in the street. Councillor Richard O'Carroll was shot in the Camden St/Wexford St area after capture and left in the street to die. There's no mention of Richard O'Carroll in the official report on the murder of Sheehy-Skeffington or in the court martial of Bowen Colthurst; his shooting and subsequent death is attributed to Bowen-Colthurst in a publication by Hanna Sheehy Skeffington and used in a question at Westminster at a later date.

A number of questions were raised in Westminster re the death of Richard O'Carroll.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/may/23/dublin-labour-party-chairman

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1916/nov/15/captain-colthorst#S5CV0087P0_19161115_CWA_11

and James Coade

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/nov/09/james-coade#S5CV0087P0_19161109_HOC_46

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1918/jul/29/captain-bowen-coulthurst#S5CV0109P0_19180729_CWA_122

and other civilians shot

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/jul/26/public-inquiry#S5CV0084P0_19160726_HOC_121

Is there any information available anywhere else about the other 2 victims suggested in the North King St blog entry as shot by Bowen Colthurst?

johnny_doyle

A publication called "A Fragment of 1916 History" is available to view online from UCD giving witness statements plus a rough map of the location of the North King St murders

http://digital.ucd.ie/get/ivrla:30958/content

A young lad called William O'Neill is mentioned as shot and killed as he looked at the body of John Beirnes. Brother in law of the murdered John Walsh, William O'Neill is buried in Glasnevin.