Lets be honest - its mostly about the bike - FTP 2014

pgibbo

Green&Red wrote: »

no typo, just didnt really know what I should be setting out at, noob!

That's common enough I'd say for first time testers. All it really means is that the 20min number is inflated. Given you don't have a PM it will be a good learning experience for future tests or for when you invest

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

peter kern wrote: »

looking forward to tunney's reply ;-)
that will be fun.

I will jump in, G&R you obviously did not commit to the 5min all out and consequently have inflated your 20min tt:)

Green&Red

go f**k yourself, I'll give you inflated

Sorry, stupid autocorrect, I'll take that on board the next time I do one

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

As a rule of thumb if you do not need the full 10min recovery to compose yourself in between the 5 and the 20tt you have not gone hard enough.:)

Green&Red

TBH I thought that the effort for the 5 mins and the 20 mins were meant to be the same so I was trying to gauge what I could do for the 20.

Away from that
I was doing the test for Stewart McKenna (Sligo TC) as part of his masters, he reckons that HR is the best way to train (as opposed to power) as it listens to your body

speedyj

I've found that in the (few) sessions I've done anything like 5 minutes all out that it compromises the remainder of the session. It may be that I go so hard that I don't even hold the initial number for 5 mins but anyway it just seems to kill me such that I can't hit anything like even FTP power for ages. Just N=1 observation mind :-)

BennyMul

speedyj wrote: »

I've found that in the (few) sessions I've done anything like 5 minutes all out that it compromises the remainder of the session. It may be that I go so hard that I don't even hold the initial number for 5 mins but anyway it just seems to kill me such that I can't hit anything like even FTP power for ages. Just N=1 observation mind :-)

That's the idea of the "all out", it is designed to leave you in a bad state.
The two efforts together are to equate to an hour @ FTP.


Personally I would suspect that your FTP is wrong if you cant maintain it after the 5min blowout.
The good news is if there is a large gap between FTP and your 5min power then is a lot of room to improve.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Green&Red wrote: »

TBH I thought that the effort for the 5 mins and the 20 mins were meant to be the same so I was trying to gauge what I could do for the 20.

Away from that
I was doing the test for Stewart McKenna (Sligo TC) as part of his masters, he reckons that HR is the best way to train (as opposed to power) as it listens to your body

No the 5min is used to open up the legs and if done correctly will more likely be a true representative of your FTP on the 20.

HR&Power combined is a good way to know if something is off, or as Kelly would say you are on a good day!

pgibbo

Green&Red wrote: »

Away from that
I was doing the test for Stewart McKenna (Sligo TC) as part of his masters, he reckons that HR is the best way to train (as opposed to power) as it listens to your body

Try doing intervals off power and then off HR. Huge difference. HR has a huge lag. As JB said, multiple reference points is the way to go

Fazz

pgibbo wrote: »

Try doing intervals off power and then off HR. Huge difference. HR has a huge lag. As JB said, multiple reference points is the way to go

Echo that.

Hard turbo's off power are a diff kettle of fish to hr.

Hr does not always reflect power efforts.

And certainly is nowhere near as specific for effort levels as watts.

Not a necessity, but is more specific.

Kinda like training to hr zones without knowing lactate levels perhaps.

peter kern

I still scratch my head how sombody can manage an ftp test 30 hours after a oly d race ( unless it was an easy trainings race ) ??? interested to know what was being tested for that study.
Personally i do not think at all ftp is inflated given short rest after race.
At the same time G&R learned something about his pacing anyway . for the next times test either on the road , power meter rpe or whatever.

Green&Red

peter kern wrote: »

I still scratch my head how sombody can manage an ftp test 30 hours after a oly d race ( unless it was an easy trainings race ) ??? interested to know what was being tested for that study.
Personally i do not think at all ftp is inflated given short rest after race.
At the same time G&R learned something about his pacing anyway . for the next times test either on the road , power meter rpe or whatever.

I would (now) agree with that Peter.
From my point of view, I always underestimate the recovery time needed after races and I was wiped out on Tuesday after this. For me it was a one off so its not the end of the world

MD1983

User|Oct|Nov|Dec|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Tunney||250||||||||||250|3.04|300|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|SRMs
J0hn1|282|303||||||||||303|3.93|350|4.79|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Jackyback||250|250||||235|265||||265|3.89|290|4.46|1hr tt|SRMs
Couerdelion||269||||||||||269|2.39|360|4.00|T5+T20*0.925|Power2Max
MD1983||308||313||||||||313|4.00|340|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|QUARQ
El Director|250|-|274||286|||||||286|3.85|310|4.2|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
Bryangiggsy||233|260||275|||293||||293||3.80||T5+T20*0.95|SRM
Amphkingwest||-|||||||||||-|||T5+T20*0.95|Polar BABY!!
ronanmac||198||||||242||||242|3.2|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
MrTango||231|-|242|-|249||||||249|3.36|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Fazz|||266|||||||||266|4.09|320|5.0|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
pgibbo||269||280|290|||||||290|4.12|304|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
EC1000||243|||||306|||||306|4.43|276|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Bambaata|||||329|||||||329|4.13|360|4.8|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
BennyMul||||||242||||||242|3.01|270|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Green&Red||||||||282||||282|3.76|300|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Wattbike


last nights Orwell 10 mile TT file below

time (official) - 23mins 39 seconds - 10 miles, 5 and back around a roundabout
moving pace - 41.3km per/hr
Watts average - 280 (estimate as i was static in the start position for circa 30 secs or so)

happy with that pace on a miserably wet and slightly windy day.

not happy with the average power but have been having stomach issues a few weeks and only coming around a bit in the last 10 days or so but i actually felt as if i was hammering it as i caught 3 guys on a 1 minute stagger:rolleyes:

made some tweaks to my position, narrowed bars and tilted them up slightly as i was reading up and it was suggested that this was the most likely way for a person to improve their position. 280 watts has only in the past got me 38km p/hr on flat courses so surprised to say the least, road surface was nothing special either

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/529101159

Fazz

User|Oct|Nov|Dec|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Tunney||250||||||||||250|3.04|300|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|SRMs
J0hn1|282|303||||||||||303|3.93|350|4.79|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Jackyback||250|250||||235|265||||265|3.89|290|4.46|1hr tt|SRMs
Couerdelion||269||||||||||269|2.39|360|4.00|T5+T20*0.925|Power2Max
MD1983||308||313||||||||313|4.00|340|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|QUARQ
El Director|250|-|274||286|||||||286|3.85|310|4.2|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
Bryangiggsy||233|260||275|||293||||293||3.80||T5+T20*0.95|SRM
Amphkingwest||-|||||||||||-|||T5+T20*0.95|Polar BABY!!
ronanmac||198||||||242||||242|3.2|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
MrTango||231|-|242|-|249||||||249|3.36|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Fazz|||266||||||301|||301|4.6|320|5.0|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
pgibbo||269||280|290|||||||290|4.12|304|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
EC1000||243|||||306|||||306|4.43|276|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Bambaata|||||329|||||||329|4.13|360|4.8|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
BennyMul||||||242||||||242|3.01|270|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Green&Red||||||||282||||282|3.76|300|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Wattbike


Slightly different testing method using last 2 races in conjunction with last year and extrapolating out.

Last years FTP - 299, raced Tri an Mhi @ 261 watts (87%), Kilkee at 276 watts (92%).
So this years Tri an Mhi @ 261 watts, Kilkee @ 286 watts (http://tpks.ws/7UgC ).

Tri an Mhi indicated back to 299 watts ftp, Kilkee if at same % would be 310 ftp.
Adding RPE I'm deeming Kilkee to be a cautious 95% FTP and so 306 watts is approx current FTP.
No time for a test in next block so using these as my numbers as feel correct.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Trying to work out a few numbers to keep training relevant. What would you base your FTP off a 90 or 120min effort, 105, 110% to calculate FTP.

Some background, had been working off 260w but achieved 261w for 2hrs over the weekend. I was thinking 275w as new FTP?

Bambaata

Was thinking of something similar myself this morning but based on short effort. I held 409AP for the 8min hill TT on Saturday and it seems for 8min power that a 10% knock off seems in line for most which would put my FTP at 368! Im not going to go changing zones though as i've never gone that deep before, set HR records etc too!

peter kern

bambata i dont think your next race a hill tt so a pointless exercise to try to read an Ftp from that. ( ps a very valuble exercise for your next race given the course profile )
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.ie/2009/07/sins-of-sins-testing-ftp-2.html

Fazz

Zoey Skinny Redcoat wrote: »

Trying to work out a few numbers to keep training relevant. What would you base your FTP off a 90 or 120min effort, 105, 110% to calculate FTP.

Some background, had been working off 260w but achieved 261w for 2hrs over the weekend. I was thinking 275w as new FTP?

I have one similar record that applied to me.

I did a 70k TT in 1:53 averaging 260w with NP of 276w (800m elevation gain).

10 days later I went 315 on FTP test during the 20min segment. So 299 FTP.
So around 92% of FTP for normalised 2 hour power.
Or 87% for AP depending on your figures.

Suggests 280w+ for your FTP but we are all different and depends how you feel. Maybe try 2 x 20min @ 90-92% of revised FTP and you will know soon enough I find!

Fazz

Bambaata wrote: »

Was thinking of something similar myself this morning but based on short effort. I held 409AP for the 8min hill TT on Saturday and it seems for 8min power that a 10% knock off seems in line for most which would put my FTP at 368! Im not going to go changing zones though as i've never gone that deep before, set HR records etc too!

Sorry but no such luck in my experience!

If it was a decent hill, then you will need to apply a much higher drop off in my experience.

I did a 19min Hill TT at the end of March this year, I averaged 323w and normalised 324. Elevation of 365m so a decent climb (6km).

So a 20min TT right? Not a hope. I estimate my FTP was at most 285w, maybe 290w at max for that time.
So over a 19min Hill TT I'd estimate the drop off to be 10% minimum, and perhaps nearer 12.5-15%.
An 8min Hill TT would surely have to be nearer to 20%?

At least for me the above would likely apply anyway.

Good luck in Mont Tremblant!
God knows who's gonna podium there eh!
Frodo?, Gomez?, Kienle? Sanders, Don, Potts?, Bozzone? ETC!!
Will be watching that on the live feed hopefully as good video as before.

tunney

Fazz wrote: »

Sorry but no such luck in my experience!

If it was a decent hill, then you will need to apply a much higher drop off in my experience.

I did a 19min Hill TT at the end of March this year, I averaged 323w and normalised 324. Elevation of 365m so a decent climb (6km).

So a 20min TT right? Not a hope. I estimate my FTP was at most 285w, maybe 290w at max for that time.
So over a 19min Hill TT I'd estimate the drop off to be 10% minimum, and perhaps nearer 12.5-15%.
An 8min Hill TT would surely have to be nearer to 20%?

At least for me the above would likely apply anyway.

Good luck in Mont Tremblant!
God knows who's gonna podium there eh!
Frodo?, Gomez?, Kienle? Sanders, Don, Potts?, Bozzone? ETC!!
Will be watching that on the live feed hopefully as good video as before.

Easier to generate power against a load.

Bambaata

Fazz wrote: »

Sorry but no such luck in my experience!

If it was a decent hill, then you will need to apply a much higher drop off in my experience.

I did a 19min Hill TT at the end of March this year, I averaged 323w and normalised 324. Elevation of 365m so a decent climb (6km).

So a 20min TT right? Not a hope. I estimate my FTP was at most 285w, maybe 290w at max for that time.
So over a 19min Hill TT I'd estimate the drop off to be 10% minimum, and perhaps nearer 12.5-15%.
An 8min Hill TT would surely have to be nearer to 20%?

At least for me the above would likely apply anyway.

Good luck in Mont Tremblant!
God knows who's gonna podium there eh!
Frodo?, Gomez?, Kienle? Sanders, Don, Potts?, Bozzone? ETC!!
Will be watching that on the live feed hopefully as good video as before.

Ah yeah i wasnt going to think FTP was up there anyway. The stage wasnt quite a full Hill TT (and so suited me as if was a real up up up hill i wouldnt have managed the win against the smaller whippets!). 1k of the 3.52 was flat! - Here's my strava from it http://www.strava.com/activities/184395637

Not going to Canada now, just cant afford it. Instead doing a Challenge HIM in Sardinia at the end of October. For the same money as a 5 day trip for just me to Canada i get 2 of us over and have a 2 week holiday!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Fazz wrote: »

I have one similar record that applied to me.

I did a 70k TT in 1:53 averaging 260w with NP of 276w (800m elevation gain).

10 days later I went 315 on FTP test during the 20min segment. So 299 FTP.
So around 92% of FTP for normalised 2 hour power.
Or 87% for AP depending on your figures.

Suggests 280w+ for your FTP but we are all different and depends how you feel. Maybe try 2 x 20min @ 90-92% of revised FTP and you will know soon enough I find!

Its as good a reference point as any, figured 275w-285w so will plonk for 280w and tweak sessions to see...i will soon find out.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

User|Oct|Nov|Dec|Jan|Feb|Mar|Apr|May|Jun|Jul|Aug|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Tunney||250||||||||||250|3.04|300|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|SRMs
J0hn1|282|303||||||||||303|3.93|350|4.79|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Jackyback||250|250||||235|265|||280|280|3.94|290|4.46|1hr tt|SRMs
Couerdelion||269||||||||||269|2.39|360|4.00|T5+T20*0.925|Power2Max
MD1983||308||313||||||||313|4.00|340|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|QUARQ
El Director|250|-|274||286|||||||286|3.85|310|4.2|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
Bryangiggsy||233|260||275|||293||||293||3.80||T5+T20*0.95|SRM
Amphkingwest||-|||||||||||-|||T5+T20*0.95|Polar BABY!!
ronanmac||198||||||242||||242|3.2|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
MrTango||231|-|242|-|249||||||249|3.36|||T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Fazz|||266||||||301|||301|4.6|320|5.0|T5+T20*0.95|Quarq
pgibbo||269||280|290|||||||290|4.12|304|4.25|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
EC1000||243|||||306|||||306|4.43|276|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
Bambaata|||||329|||||||329|4.13|360|4.8|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
BennyMul||||||242||||||242|3.01|270|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max
Green&Red||||||||282||||282|3.76|300|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Wattbike


Sense checked the above following on from last weeks racing. Solid turbo session this morning with 2x20 at 280AP. Still some weight to shift but power improvements on the right track. I hope to be getting close to 320w FTP by the end of the calendar year all going well.