phonewatch - old or new?

danindub

Hi guys,

I just got phonewatch wired system installed last Friday, and on Monday they came up with brand new wireless system.

I got in touch with them and they'd be happy to replace the system for me for the new one if I choose to.

The old system comprises of inertia sensors, couple of contact sensors and two motion sensors. It's pretty standard wired system.

The new one is wireless and has no inertia sensors but one contact (for front door) and 4 motion sensors. Now the trick is that the motion sensor comes with camera (!) and when it's triggered it sends 5 pictures to their monitoring centre (and they can be used by gardai if needs to be...)

Now I think this is brilliant and no brainer - they essentially can verify alarm after one motion sensor is triggered and call the guards - with old system at least 2 alarms needed to be triggered. With new system you also get handy keyfobs to arm/disarm system and a smartphone app which let you do the same thing.

Again - I think it's no brainer and I should go for the new one, but maybe I'm missing something?? Any advice would be appreciated.

Dan.

2011

It would seem to me that the old system provides a higher level of perimeter protection with the inertia shock sensors.

This means that the "old alarm" should activate if an attempt is made to gain entry through a window/door that has an inertia shock sensor fitted. Hopefully this activation would stop an intruder from entering the premises.

Were the intruder not to attempt to gain entry through the front door the "new alarm" system would only activate once the intruder is in the premises as the only detectors are the PIRs.

Would you be satisfied if an intruder had to enter the premises to trigger the alarm system?

Is this a domestic installation?

danindub

Thanks for your input.

You are making a very valid point. I would prefer if intruder was possibly scared off before entering the house...

It's a domestic installation.

Thanks a lot for your input, I think this is a deal-breaker!

2011

I am sure you could get the new system with inertia shock sensors, however you can expect this "extra" to be reflected in the invoice.

KoolKid

It seems they are compromising your security for gimmicks.
Your visual verified will probably get no more priority that an alarm verified by 2 activations.
A couple of other points on this:
How much damage could be done to your property from the outside without the alarm even activating?
What form of monitoring is this new system using? From what I've heard its going to be GSM only. Meaning the entire monitoring both alarms & images can be blocked by cheap & easily available jammers.
Are you getting a live working external bell with the new system? PW often only install decoys to tie you to ongoing monitoring.
Will this system work with other providers, eg UPC etc, should you wish to change down the line?
Is there a radio option available if you are concerned about the risks with GSM.?
What panel are they using ? You need to research this & see if other licenced installers would be an option down the line.
I know of one company at the moment where the company have the panel & devices locked and tied to themselves. With the result they can charge €200 to replace or add any device. You don't want to be tied into something like that.
It seems to me you have better protection in place at the moment. Wired is always preferred if the cabling is OK . If you want all the extras like the apps etc why not look at something like Siemens SPC panels.? They allow you to add IP cameras which you can view yourself as well.
On a side note, Visonic do a system like this with PiR cameras for verification. We done some research on it & found almost all people were very reluctant to have cameras internally that a control room would have access to ,but they wouldn't.
Shop around & do some research before jumping at any offer like this would be my advice.

danindub

Hi there,

Thanks for feedback.

As I mentioned I already have system installed as of last Friday. I only just bought a house. The reason I went with phonewatch is that I heard of them a lot over the years and deferred payment (I don't pay for my system until March 2014). as a broke new home owner I couldn't say no to this. Also for similar system I was quoted more than phonewatch + year subscription, so was no-brainer for me. And for now this has to do. The way I see it is that if someone wants and knows how to break in they will anyway, with alarm or not.

The reason I asked was that I was given the opportunity to go for the new one. By no means they were trying to push it on me in fact they were quite reluctant originally.

2011

KoolKid wrote: »

We done some research on it & found almost all people were very reluctant to have cameras internally that a control room would have access to ,but they wouldn't.

Yes, I was thinking this myself.

I would not like a 3rd party to have access to cameras within my home.
This is more suited to a commercial premises in my opinion.

I am not really a Phonewatch fan to be honest.

KoolKid

It seems you already have your mind made up.
I'm simply offering you some good advice re phonewatch. Search around this forum and you will see much more of the same.
Plenty of company's would have looked at deferred payments for you, there are plenty more offing a years free monitoring & more.
You will be quoted more for some systems than PW because there is much more to them. Most reputable installers will not be happy installing a couple of PiRs and some door contacts. I for one always recommend sensors & contacts on all downstairs and accessible windows & backed up by a couple of PiRs. But if anyone bothers to spec like with like they will see the price difference is the other way around.
I am in this business over 20 years & I still don't understand the mentality of that statement..

that if someone wants and knows how to break in they will anyway, with alarm or not.

If you think like that why pay for an alarm at all....
The truth is the vast majority of break-ins happen on property's without an alarm or without a working alarm.
Over the years add up your monitoring and maintenance fees & expenses and compare PW to others. You will pay more in the long run. limited to 2 call a year & pay €100+ per call after that..

I'm not having a go,and I'm not posting this for your benefit, as you have already made up your mind. I'm posting these details for others who will come on looking for advice they are willing to take on board.

danindub

I do take it on board the thing is that:

A) alarm by phonewatch is ALREADY INSTALLED. I can't change my mind.
I don't have time to look around for alarm. I have a job to go to. Frankly I'm surprised as a new buyer I wasn't approached by security companies especially as it's a new housing estate...
C) I had few quotes and they were like-for-like. I've got inertia in all downstairs windows and doors and all accessible upstairs. Phonewatch price was very competitive to non-monitored alarms. I had two companies arranged for survey. One never showed up, the other was 2 hours late. It's like they didn't want my money...

Evolution1

Would you post a picture of the alarm they installed ?

KoolKid

A) Fair enough.
Almost every alarm I install is for people who work,When making important decisions most people would find the time.
C) With PW I see very few quotes that are like for like.
Was a live external bell included?
Did all the windows with inertias also include contacts?
Does maintenance & monitoring include unlimited call outs and labour?
It does seem you were unlucky with who you called out for quotes, did the PW rep do a physical survey first.
What panel did PW install for you?

danindub

SecureWatch HKC

altor

danindub wrote: »

SecureWatch HKC

They installed Securewatch
The newer system from HKC is the Securewave.
The Securewave has the ability to add 70 wire free devices so if down the road you had any issues with cables you could add wire free devices. The dialer off the Securewave will do voice and text. With the Securewatch you are limited to just text if you decided to leave the monitoring at a later date. Also to get the text you need to be with Eircom or Vodafone.

KoolKid

danindub wrote: »

SecureWatch HKC

Unbelievable..
That's why you should come onto boards and do your research first. I finished installing those panels years ago. That panel is over 15 years old.

altor

Very reliable system and still installed by a lot of different companies.
I prefer to use the Securewave myself as it is more up to date, can add wire free devices plus has the ability to do voice and text using the same dialer with different service providers.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Very reliable system and still installed by a lot of different companies.

Not saying its not reliable , but its day has past.
I'd be suspicious of anyone selling this as a new install when there is much more modern panels available for the same money.

altor

I would too. There is about €15 in the difference between the Securewatch and Securewave.

danindub

Thanks guys. Very helpful.

Evolution1

I could make make a list of companies still installing these !

KoolKid

I could too its great. Makes selling a newer system so much easier.
It's like going into a phone shop and been offered a Nokia 6110 at the same price as an iPhone. Which would you take?

altor

Evolution1 wrote: »

I could make make a list of companies still installing these !

It is surprising the amount of company's still selling the 8/12.
For the little extra cost of the 10/70 its there customers they are cheating.

danindub

I just wanted to point out what I've said before - my experience with other, smaller, security installation companies was very poor. I felt like no one is interested in my business/money.

No wonder businesses are falling. Yes maybe I didn't get best for my money with eircom but at least my problem was taken care of. That's what I, as a customer who just wants alarm in place, expected. I shouldn't need to know different types of systems, that's what you guys (installation companies...) are for.

KoolKid

If you shopped around a few independent installers and that's the impression you got then I d say you were very unfortunate.
It's generally the local /smaller companies who are more flexible and wont try to charge you €150 to change a battery and €200 + for a standard bell box.

danindub

KoolKid wrote: »

If you shopped around a few independent installers and that's the impression you got then I d say you were very unfortunate.
It's generally the local /smaller companies who are more flexible and wont try to charge you €150 to change a battery and €200 + for a standard bell box.

Must have been bad luck, but found Phonewatch very handy.

I paid €699 for two motion sensors (pet lens), three inertia/opening sensors, six inertia-only sensors and GSM box, control panel and dummy bell box and installation. I do not pay anything until Feb 2014 (which is fantastic since as a new home owner I'm completely broke). There is of course monitoring cost on top of that but that's not the issue.

I called, I discussed my requirements, I got discount, agreed the installation date and was ready to go. Guy arrived 10 minutes earlier and got everything setup. This is exactly how it should be.

I just want to point out that one of the "small" places quoted me €1200 for the same setup. The other two declined to give me any sort of quote before checking the site (I can understand why, but I'd like to be given estimate before I take time off work...). One did arrive two hours late late (I could not wait any longer and had to leave before they arrived) and the other never showed up. Didn't answer the calls until later that day "it wasn't in my calendar"....

For that alone I'm happy with my choice. Also the fact that Phonewatch were happy to replace my system with their new one free of charge - again, well impressed with customer service (however following advice here I did not go ahead with the change).

KoolKid

It's unfair to say €1200 for the same. I would say that would be a different panel and including external bell as standard and maybe with or without monitoring. That's why I always ask people to quote and compare like with like.
For example, does your service maintenance and monitoring cover all call outs and labour or are you limited to one or 2 calls?
I wouldn't give a customer a system design proposal either without a site visit as it's unlikely to be accurate.
I also would not install a GSM digi for use with central station monitoring. Way too easy to jam.
Anyway, you seem like a happy content customer. All the best with it and I hope all goes well and it gives you the protection and service you require.
If not, we'll see you back here, like many others, when things go wrong..

altor

danindub wrote: »

Must have been bad luck, but found Phonewatch very handy.

I paid €699 for two motion sensors (pet lens), three inertia/opening sensors, six inertia-only sensors and GSM box, control panel and dummy bell box and installation. I do not pay anything until Feb 2014 (which is fantastic since as a new home owner I'm completely broke). There is of course monitoring cost on top of that but that's not the issue.

I called, I discussed my requirements, I got discount, agreed the installation date and was ready to go. Guy arrived 10 minutes earlier and got everything setup. This is exactly how it should be.

I just want to point out that one of the "small" places quoted me €1200 for the same setup. The other two declined to give me any sort of quote before checking the site (I can understand why, but I'd like to be given estimate before I take time off work...). One did arrive two hours late late (I could not wait any longer and had to leave before they arrived) and the other never showed up. Didn't answer the calls until later that day "it wasn't in my calendar"....

For that alone I'm happy with my choice. Also the fact that Phonewatch were happy to replace my system with their new one free of charge - again, well impressed with customer service (however following advice here I did not go ahead with the change).

You could of added another €200 for a live bell box. The GSM supplied by P.W. is a new world GSM. If you decide to self monitor the system in years to come the GSM wont do this for you unless you add a voice dialer to be triggered off the outputs. With the proper GSM you would of had remote access to the alarm for setting unsetting purposes plus got a lot more info with regards activations. With the newer system you would also had the option to trigger lights/heat. Adding monitoring of the system on to your original price plus external bell would shown the true figure.

I am glad you think you got a good deal of the P.W sales people.

danindub

the two days off I wasted waiting for non-shows is also money wasted...

altor

danindub wrote: »

the two days off I wasted waiting for non-shows is also money wasted...

That is understandable. Its just a shame the company you put your trust in <snip>.

KoolKid

You never mentioned, are you happy that your alarm only uses GSM monitoring which can be easily jammed.
Furthermore , from what I hear all PW systems are now going to be GSM only.
An ideal target for burglars with jammers. No more guess work as to how the system is monitored.
The only way I would use GSM for central station monitoring is if the customer signs a disclaimer stating I have informed them of the risks of GSM jamming.
I'm guessing PW didn't do this & instead said it never happens.

altor

Not if the system is using a land line already.
Older GSMs dont log a jam but newer GSMs will.

KoolKid

How often is the polling ?& what action is taken on a single or duel path fail?