Ireland V Samoa team announcement and build up thread.

Fireball07

World class is a subjective term, but I think top 10 in a position is a bit too much.... I generally would keep it to a very select few...rather than 150 world class players.


But Murray is definitely one of the top 10 9's in the world atm..... bar Du Preez, Kockott, Genia, maybe Smith, Parra...

Valentine1

Riskymove wrote: »

the problem here is that we compare our own starters to all the other countries starters

there could be several all blacks better in one position but we only really see the one playing... I think there could be several wingers for example

I would also say though that top 10 doesn't really mean much in rugby terms given the few countries playing at top level

This is exactly what I was getting at. Certainly in terms of wingers there are several players in New Zealand alone who would be ahead of Bowe at this moment in time.

19543261

Dont mean to be too blehhlbeh about it, but there's something almost touching about Joe training with them.

sydthebeat

Valentine1 wrote: »

You maybe right but I respectfully disagree.

There is most certAinly not 9 other scrum halves playing rugby that see better than murray. He's not the finished article yet, but he was still the stand out sh for the lions. Currently maybe only smith and genia are better and both have had shockers lately.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Valentine1 wrote: »

This is exactly what I was getting at. Certainly in terms of wingers there are several players in New Zealand alone who would be ahead of Bowe at this moment in time.

????

What wingers?

Savea and Smith maybe but who else?

Corey Jane is starting for the AB's this weekend. Bowe is a better winger and I thnk our resident Kiwi will agree (enter Swiwi)

Rightwing

I agree we tend to hugely over rate our players. They definitely aren't world class, probably the next level below it though.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree we tend to hugely over rate our players. They definitely aren't world class, probably the next level below it though.

So Sean O'Brien is world class? A level below?

More rubbish

Hagz

Cory Jane is definitley better than Bowe imo.

I'm sure there's people out there who would rate Smith, Jane, Savea, Piutau, Guilford and Gear ahead of Bowe.

Not that I'm one of those people of course. I'd probably rate Smith, Savea, Jane and Gear ahead of him, but I'd have him ahead of Guilford and Piutau.

sydthebeat

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree we tend to hugely over rate our players. They definitely aren't world class, probably the next level below it though.

Bowe would walk onto any team in the world bar maybe the all blacks. Healy would walk onto all of them.

melekalikimaka

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

but can you not name the ten 9's you think are better than murray?

top ten is ridiculous, you'd be picking second string before you get to the end

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

sydthebeat wrote: »

Bowe would walk onto any team in the world bar maybe the all blacks. Healy would walk onto all of them.

add Sexton and SOB to that, and Heaslip

Riskymove

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is most certAinly not 9 other scrum halves playing rugby that see better than murray. He's not the finished article yet, but he was still the stand out sh for the lions. Currently maybe only smith and genia are better and both have had shockers lately.

I'd have to disagree here somewhat

He is not the finished article but is still in top 10 in the world?....does not say much for the others

The problem is how much we really see of other players

e.g. Rory Kockott of Brive was voted best scrum half in the Top14...

Rightwing

sydthebeat wrote: »

Bowe would walk onto any team in the world bar maybe the all blacks. Healy would walk onto all of them.

Don't think so. I can't think of one Irish player that would make the bench in world team. Maybe the 2nd team 1 or 2 may sneak in. But it is subjective.

Riskymove

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

and Heaslip

Italy might disagree :pac:

Tox56

Hagz wrote: »

Cory Jane is definitley better than Bowe imo.

I'm sure there's people out there who would rate Smith, Jane, Savea, Piutau, Guilford and Gear ahead of Bowe.

Not that I'm one of those people of course. I'd probably rate Smith, Savea, Jane and Gear ahead of him, but I'd have him ahead of Guilford and Piutau.

I've said this before but Bowe is underrated, if he was NZ born he'd have a field day, he'd be perfect linking with others and coming off his wing, and would probably be rated a lot higher in the rest of the world

Hagz

So Bowe would walk onto a South Africa team with Habana and Le Roux?
An Australian team with Ione and ACC?
A New Zealand team with Savea and Smith?

I'm not so sure. He's in the top three wingers in the Northern Hemisphere no doubt.

Murray has to be in the top 10. You can rattle off Smith, Kockott, Genia, Parra, Du Preez, Fotuali'i even youngs if you want but eventually your grasping at straws.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Riskymove wrote: »

I'd have to disagree here somewhat

He is not the finished article but is still in top 10 in the world?....does not say much for the others

The problem is how much we really see of other players

e.g. Rory Kockott of Brive was voted best scrum half in the Top14...

Maybe you don't. But there simply aren't ten 9's better than Conor Murray in the game right now

Competition isn't steep at the moment, but Murray is easily in the top ten

I mean, seeing as you're so convinced that murray isn't in the top ten who would you say is better?

btw, Rory Kockott isn't some sort of unknown. You mention him as if there are another 5 or 6 Kocketts playing rugby in leagues around the world, there aren't

Hagz

It'll be interesting to see how Bowe plays under Schmidt. Schmidt mentioned that an area he wants Bowe to work on is his work coming in off the wing, so I expect we'll see a lot more of him with ball in hand.

Valentine1

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

but can you not name the ten 9's you think are better than murray?

quick stab in no particular order Du Preez, Peenar, Kockott, Genia, Parra, perhaps even Weepu or Youngs.

I appreciate thats not 10 9s but I'm barely even trying. I'm not trying to denigrate Murray merely expressing my opinion that I think he may be overrated by some people, someday soon he may be unquestionably be world class but I don't feel he's there now and I don't think he is in the top 10 in the world either.

astonaidan

molloyjh wrote: »

Don't worry, Ritchie's got this sorted.



And looks like Ferg is doing some kicking practice too...

Entirely basing it on the two pictures, but Fergus has a better kicking stance than Jackson

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Valentine1 wrote: »

quick stab in no particular order Du Preez, Peenar, Kockott, Genia, Parra, perhaps even Weepu or Youngs.

I appreciate thats not 10 9s but I'm barely even trying. I'm not trying to denigrate Murray merely expressing my opinion that I think he may be overrated by some people, someday soon he may be unquestionably be world class but I don't feel he's there now and I don't think he is in the top 10 in the world either.

Weepu?! ah here

And you can't even name 10!

Riskymove

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I mean, seeing as you're so convinced that murray isn't in the top ten who would you say is better?

I didn't say he wasn't...just that i am not sure I'd agree he is the 3rd best with the only two ahead of him the poalyers mentioned

as I said top 10 in rugby is not much of a claim anyway....the fact is that there is not really that much of a gulf amongst countries and players

imo there are the top couple of really outstanding players in each position and then a large group of others who can only really be placed on form

btw, Rory Kockott isn't some sort of unknown. You mention him as if there are another 5 or 6 Kocketts playing rugby in leagues around the world, there aren't

the example of Kockett is simply about an example of how much we see of other top players

we see irish based players in detail every week

Valentine1

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

????

What wingers?

Savea and Smith maybe but who else?

Corey Jane is starting for the AB's this weekend. Bowe is a better winger and I thnk our resident Kiwi will agree (enter Swiwi)

If you dont think Cory Jane would turn Tommy Bowe inside out or blow him away in a foot race you are either out of your mind or wearing very rose tinted glasses.

Now I have to get back to work or I'll never get out of here. Enjoy the game guys:):):)

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Riskymove wrote: »

I didn't say he wasn't...just that i am not sure I'd agree he is the 3rd best with the only two ahead of him the poalyers mentioned

as I said top 10 in rugby is not much of a claim anyway....the fact is that there is not really that much of a gulf amongst countries and players

imo there are the top couple of really outstanding players in each position and then a large group of others who can only really be placed on form



the example of Kockett is simply about an example of how much we see of other top players

we see irish based players in detail every week

Fair enough, I don't think he's the third best 9 in the world btw, but he's certainly in the top 10

And I'd agree that there aren't exactly a glut of quality nines around at the moment , especially in the northern hemisphere

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Valentine1 wrote: »

If you dont think Cory Jane would turn Tommy Bowe inside out or blow him away in a foot race you are either out of your mind or wearing very rose tinted glasses.

I don't.... in fact when was the last time any winger has done that to Bowe? He's a fantastic defender

So I guess I'm out of my mind.

Valentine1

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Weepu?! ah here

And you can't even name 10!

oh I forgot Michalak :P:P:P

thomond2006

All other things being equal, who would I select over Murray?

du Preez, Genia, Smith, Kockott and the Ulster version of Pienaar at least. Players like Youngs and Parra are a close call. He is absolutely in the Top 10 and very close to my Top 5.

Fireball07

Murray is so much better than Weepu, it's not even funny.

And I'd definitely have him ahead of Youngs as of now, more consistent.


Jane is underrated by some, he reminds me of Bowe in some ways. Great finisher, hands-off, kicking game, defence, etc. top class. I think I rate him higher than Savea tbh.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

The very fact that someone would say Piri Weepu is better than Conor Murray shows the lengths people will go to talk down the quality of our own players

CatFromHue

Cory Jane has probably the best hand off in World Rugby. It's amazing the amount of power he gets in it.