Ireland V Samoa team announcement and build up thread.

The Lost Sheep

ssaye2 wrote: »

When are Samoa naming their team?

Sometime this evening afaik

Rigor Mortis

jacothelad wrote: »

Marshall is bigger, stronger and faster than Darcy. Physicality isn't a problem for either of them.

But not as good in contact. I would have picked Marshall but I can see the arguments against.

Mahatma Geansai

molloyjh wrote: »

The one thing I will say to this is that Toner is massively underrated by some. The guy has great hands and has been playing very well the last 12 months or so. As long as he's partnered with an abrasive, niggly player beside him he's a great asset. How often do you see POC throwing a dummy pass, breaking the gain line and putting a man in space?

I care about Toner's hands in the same way I care about a fullback being able monster the opposition in the tackle area. Sure, its a great perk, but it is only a perk.

Toner's hands are mentioned because its a very visible skill. If a player isn't brilliant at the core duties of their position, I don't care about any other perks they can offer. Sure Toner is improving a lot, and he now quite a good player for Leinster, but he just doesn't have the athleticism to be a top player.

Outside of the setpeice, locks are asked to hit rucks, tackle and recycle poor ball. Toner is only good at one of those core skills, and he isn't great at any of them.

Buer

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I care about Toner's hands in the same way I care about a fullback being able monster the opposition in the ruck. Sure, its a great perk, but its only a perk.

Toner's hands are mentioned because its a very visible skill. If a player isn't brilliant at the core duties of their position, I don't care about any other perks they can offer. Sure Toner is improving a lot, and he now quite a good player for Leinster, but he just doesn't have the athleticism to be a top player.

Outside of the setpeice, locks are asked to hit rucks, tackle and recycle poor ball. Toner is only good at one of those core skills, and he isn't great at any of them.

I agree that I want a player to have their core duties nailed down ahead of anything else.

With that said, we badly need to move away from the idea that we shouldn't put give much thought to the other elements of their game. It's the mindset that has limited the Irish game plan generally. If you watched the locks for South Africa and NZ, they handle the ball like a good openside. They're completely comfortable giving and taking passes and running with the ball in space as opposed to clutching at the ball like a drunk two year old before toppling to the ground when a defender comes within 5 yards of them.

POC whilst a truly wonderful player, is the last really of that generation of lock. Guys like Toner, Tuohy and Ryan, whilst not the physical specimens that POC is, are much more comfortable with the ball in hand. Henderson seems to be the first guy potentially that can bring the hard edge to his game while possessing the skills that the new generation of lock has.

If we persist in putting too much emphasis on the core duties of players and not on their general rugby skills, we'll end up with the same limited teams we've had for a long time. Great set piece and good set moves with good hands in the backs but if a donkey ends up in the way, it will break down.

Kanrith

ssaye2 wrote: »

When are Samoa naming their team?

I heard that it's at 4:30.

thebaz

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm still pinching myself that Ireland are going into a game under Joe Schmidt, this weekend.

with Roy Keane in semi charge of the football team, after a few lean years in both codes, havnt fealt so good to be an Irish supporter , in a long time

thebaz

jacothelad wrote: »

Nonsense.

good man

peterako

Pudsy33 wrote: »

D'arcy starting is baffling. Other then that I'm happy

Why? He's been playing extremely well.....

The Lost Sheep

peterako wrote: »

Why? He's been playing extremely well.....

chance for player like Marshall to get international experience. know what Darcy can do. Better try Marshall v Samoa than play him v NZ

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

peterako wrote: »

Why? He's been playing extremely well.....

Wouldn't say extremely well now

donfers

our pack is pretty average, backs are reliable but not the most dynamic, we will win narrowly if PJ kicks his goals which is far from a certainty

former legend

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

chance for player like Marshall to get international experience. know what Darcy can do. Better try Marshall v Samoa than play him v NZ

We already have Jackson, McGrath, Toner and Henry as (relative) international novices in the XV, plus Fitzpatrick, Madigan and D Kearney on the bench. It's a pretty progressive side as is.

sydthebeat

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

chance for player like Marshall to get international experience. know what Darcy can do. Better try Marshall v Samoa than play him v NZ

guys like Toner, Mc Grath, Jackson, Henry, Mc fadden and Mc Carty are relative newbies to international action.

You need a certain level of experience to carry these lads through and i think marshall would have been a step too far considering the alternative (Darcy)

Foxtrol

Think the POC captain and Heaslip vice is a good call. Sets down in stone early that if POC’s injury woes continue then Heaslip is the man. All parties should be happy enough with that. Only issue I could see is if the unfortunate situation comes around that POC plays as few games with Ireland as he has been then at what point to Heaslip take over properly but hopefully it wont be a situation that comes up.

Given the players that are out/walking wounded I’m very happy with that side. Only contentious issue is Marshall’s omission for Darcy but I think it would have been a poor decision to start a combination of Murray – Jackson – Marshall – BOD with the combinations themselves having limited gametime together but more importantly only one of them having played under Joe before.

former legend

Foxtrol wrote: »

Think the POC captain and Heaslip vice is a good call. Sets down in stone early that if POC’s injury woes continue then Heaslip is the man. All parties should be happy enough with that. Only issue I could see is if the unfortunate situation comes around that POC plays as few games with Ireland as he has been then at what point to Heaslip take over properly but hopefully it wont be a situation that comes up.

Posted this on the 'captain' thread as a reason why O'Connell shouldn't be named captain, in that it just kicks the can down the road to when he inevitably suffers another injury.

So I think Joe has played this well, if O'Connell manages to stay intact, he's a great choice as captain and if he gets injured, we don't have to go through all the speculation and nonsense again as to who replaces him.

leinsterlion

I think henshaw and touhy deserve a chance in the games coming up, Samoa would have been ideal

slingerz

would have though Marshal would have been a better option than Darcy purely to gain experience ahead of the 6N and upcoming world cup in 2015. What age will darcy be by the time that comes around?

Fireball07

Buer wrote: »

I agree that I want a player to have their core duties nailed down ahead of anything else.

With that said, we badly need to move away from the idea that we shouldn't put give much thought to the other elements of their game. It's the mindset that has limited the Irish game plan generally. If you watched the locks for South Africa and NZ, they handle the ball like a good openside. They're completely comfortable giving and taking passes and running with the ball in space as opposed to clutching at the ball like a drunk two year old before toppling to the ground when a defender comes within 5 yards of them.

POC whilst a truly wonderful player, is the last really of that generation of lock. Guys like Toner, Tuohy and Ryan, whilst not the physical specimens that POC is, are much more comfortable with the ball in hand. Henderson seems to be the first guy potentially that can bring the hard edge to his game while possessing the skills that the new generation of lock has.

If we persist in putting too much emphasis on the core duties of players and not on their general rugby skills, we'll end up with the same limited teams we've had for a long time. Great set piece and good set moves with good hands in the backs but if a donkey ends up in the way, it will break down.

I do agree with your whole point, but in a 2nd row, you can't have someone who is a soft touch or who lacks aggression. POC mightn't have the best hands but he's still miles ahead of others on form.

All-round players are nice to have, but if there's one place where I'd value just a pure monster in aggression terms, it's a 2nd row.

.ak

Toner has a lot more dog in him then people are suggesting. I think it's because he hasn't got that low centre of gravity ala POC or Bakkies sort of lock that he can't hit rucks or tackle or shove in a maul/scrum. He's well capable of all of these on his day.

Think he'll surprise a few people on Saturday.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

I do agree with your whole point, but in a 2nd row, you can't have someone who is a soft touch or who lacks aggression. POC mightn't have the best hands but he's still miles ahead of others on form.

All-round players are nice to have, but if there's one place where I'd value just a pure monster in aggression terms, it's a 2nd row.

I'd argue that POC has yet to show much in the way of form this season. Big game player with the reputation and ability to be forgiven a few less than stellar performances and a guy you'd have in the side if and when he's available, but as far as this seasons form goes he's down the list a bit. Toner and Tuohy are probably the form locks in the country right now.

P_1

Interesting selection, main question for me is who will be taking the kicks at goal.

molloyjh

P_1 wrote: »

Interesting selection, main question for me is who will be taking the kicks at goal.

I'd say Paddy. If he doesn't have his kicking boots on then Ferg may step in.

.ak

Yeah defo Jackson. Don't think it's high pressure as the last time he was dumped into an Irish team to cover an injury.

He's a decent enough kicker anyway. Anyone that can kick at 80%ish will do.

Foxtrol

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd say Paddy. If he doesn't have his kicking boots on then Ferg may step in.

Yeah, has to be a huge knock in his confidence if Ferg gets the nod straight out the gates.

ssaye2

McFadden brought Ross for a coffee today

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYeu7avIEAAIllw.jpg:large

P_1

Yeah I'd say it'd be Jackson too. Come to think of it, McFadden hasn't taken a kick for Leinster in some time hasn't he?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

P_1 wrote: »

Yeah I'd say it'd be Jackson too. Come to think of it, McFadden hasn't taken a kick for Leinster in some time hasn't he?

He did a few weeks ago I think

The Pheasant2

I just hope he can make his kicks (this time around) at international level - it really is a vital skill, especially when Ferg probably won't be there to cover him once Zebo, Gilroy and Earls are back.

RoundBox11

Pretty happy with that team. I think Touhy deserves to start ahead of mcCarthy tbh. Id also like to see Marshall start but I can see the reasoning for now.

I think id keel over with disbelief if an Irish winger place kicks this weekend :P. Itd be good to see Schmidt let Mcfadden take the pressure off if Jackson is struggling. However im confident Jackson will deliver!

Swiwi.

its_phil wrote: »

Sexton, POC and SOB have completed shag all training sessions this week. If you can't recognise that is a very good team, well that's a massive pity. That team is definitely not disrespectful.

Great. Feel free to put the same team out against NZ. I rather suspect the 4 I mentioned will all start though. In my defence i haven't yet been able to listen to the press conference being at work.