Anschutz MSR-RX22 on the way

bennybrendy

Got news today the first few Anschutz MSR-RX22 will be arriving in ireland with the irsih distributor the first allocation has already been snapped up and i have managed to secure one myself in the desert colour.
Cant wait to get my hands on this puppy.

22lr semi auto
Fixed stock
Target competition barrel with recessed muzzle
Adjustable trigger from 1500g to 2500g
400mm three way picatinny rail

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Sparks

Anschutz goes tacticool. Hmmmm. Wonder how well it shoots though. The last few rifles that were built for that market by the big names seem to have had a mixed reception (Walther's G22 for example - some folk liked it, some thought it was a piece of bad engineering). Be interesting to see the group sizes...

bennybrendy

first generation of roughly 200 of these had trigger mechanism problems but the second gen new batch have had upgraded trigger mechanisms. I checked out and american site that had a few guys shooting these and were very impressed with results.
http://www.rimfireshooting.com/index.php?/topic/10108-my-new-anschutz-msr-rx22/

Cass

Have been following these with interest.

A few thing stand out for me.

• 16" barrel
• 1:8 twist for a .22lr
• Tacticool folding stock (the "idon'tlikethelookofthat" issue)
• Are they made by Anschutz.

So will they come in as restricted or unrestricted, and as Sparks said how accurate.


Lastly the price. Recently i was looking into getting a Savage SR-TR II in .22lr. They are $449 in the states. When i finally got the Euro price i was told that they will retail at €850. Thats nearly 3 times the American price.
When i done some checking about buying privately and importing through a friendly dealer it was going to cost me €617 including all appropriate duties, taxes, fees, etc. When i asked why i could import for over €200 cheaper than them i got no answer. I mean as they are importing multiple firearms and buying wholesale, direct from the manufacturer, and not retail surely they would be cheaper than what i could buy them at.

The Rifle above is priced at $795. So based on the prices above you are looking at €1,500 for that rifle. So either the RFDs are getting screwed on taxes that somehow do not apply to an average person, and are passing this cost onto us OR someone is making a profit on our both the RFd's and our backs.

bennybrendy

The MSR RX 22TM is a joint development by three German companies: ANSCHÜTZ, GERMAN SPORT GUNS and ESC Ulm.
They have recently been cleared by DOJ as unrestricted rifle. It took a long time and a lot of effeort from the irish distributors to get this done.
As for cost from an RFD in ireland retailing you should expect to pay around 1200 to 1300 euro.
Everything from the states costs less.
An rfd in ireland will not go to the trouble of getting in 1 rifle on its own from america due to the time and paperwork associated with such an import.
RFD's will prefer to use a distributor in ireland so as to not have the trouble of importing the guns.
The down side of using a distributor is the costs associated with getting them in stock with the distributor and the distributor adding on the percentage he needs to make a profit reults in the rifle being more expensive on the shelf with your local RFD.
The time and effort associated with importing guns weather your an rfd or a normal shooter is just not worth the hassle its a lot easier to rely on the distribitors in ireland for firearms to go that trouble for you.

Cass

bennybrendy wrote: »

The MSR RX 22TM is a joint development by three German companies: ANSCHÜTZ, GERMAN SPORT GUNS and ESC Ulm.

My "concerns" were based on the Anschutz 520. I was always told they were a Gamo product labeled under the Anschutz badge. Not criticising Gamo, but i've been dubious about a product labeled as one brand, but made by another like the Sig Mosquito, etc.

However as long as it has the Anschutz breed i'd have no concerns as such.

They have recently been cleared by DOJ as unrestricted rifle. It took a long time and a lot of effeort from the irish distributors to get this done.
As for cost from an RFD in ireland retailing you should expect to pay around 1200 to 1300 euro

At 1,200 - 1,300 Euro that would leave the rifle costing between 610 to 710 Euro more than the states.

Everything from the states costs less.

Understand and agreed. Due to manufacturing being there, no taxes/duties and the overall market size i'd imagine.

An rfd in ireland will not go to the trouble of getting in 1 rifle on its own from america due to the time and paperwork associated with such an import.

The dealer i spoke to had agreed to get it in for me. I have already checked the paperwork, and process with the dealer filling in any mistakes. Hence the price i came to as the final cost of the rifle.

RFD's will prefer to use a distributor in ireland so as to not have the trouble of importing the guns.

True.

The down side of using a distributor is the costs associated with getting them in stock with the distributor and the distributor adding on the percentage he needs to make a profit results in the rifle being more expensive on the shelf with your local RFD.
The time and effort associated with importing guns weather your an rfd or a normal shooter is just not worth the hassle its a lot easier to rely on the distribitors in ireland for firearms to go that trouble for you.

As someone in the industry maybe you could break it down for me. Not asking you to disclose any "trade secrets " just in basic English for me.

The Anschutz which is the focus of this thread is $895 (highest price i can find) in the states which is €670. In the UK it is between £550 - £600 depending on model/features which is between €660 - €720. Also as it's form the UK import is much cheaper/easier than the states.

So how can the same rifle cost €1,200 - €1,300 here?



I apologise for the questions, and i don't mean to derail the thread from the focus of the rifle. Personally i would love one, but i cannot pass up the opportunity to ask questions from someone that is in the know.

Thanks.

bennybrendy

Rfd's in ireland have the same problem that all shooters in ireland have.
If rfd wants to stock this rifle and source it from an irish distributor it will cost 'X'
If the rfd was to buy the same rifle from a distributor in the uk it will cost 'Y' (Less)
if rfd buys from the uk you have cost of rifle + Delivery + VAT by the time its gets here he will end up paying the same as 'X'
It is very frustrating as you well know the variations in prices from country to country.
Weather your a shooter or an rfd were all in the same boat with the same problems

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

So either the RFDs are getting screwed on taxes that somehow do not apply to an average person, and are passing this cost onto us OR someone is making a profit on our both the RFd's and our backs.

It's a combination of multiple things.

First, as bennybrendy says most RFDs will get stuff in via the distributor so there's two sets of margins that need to be added, not one. If you get a friendly RFD to import it directly then you're cutting out one middle man's margin and presumably your friendly RFD is taking a smaller cut than normal from you.

Second, the market here is tiny. The number of sales is so low that the margin you need to add to make any money is higher. If an RFD tries to make minimum wage on a shop open 6 days a week with cheap rent then he probably needs to make a margin of about €500/week (back of the envelope figures). If he's putting 10% on the cost of what he's selling he has to do about €6000/week in sales once you take VAT into account. My guess is that that would be very optimistic and bear in mind that's to make minimum wage and it doesn't include insurance or licensing fees. If he puts 50% on the cost of what he's selling he needs to make about €1850/week in sales. If he puts a 100% markup he needs to make €1230/week in sales. Again, to make minimum wage and investing nothing in the business.

Cass

I know the problem only too well. I recently bought a CZ .17hmr brand new. The prices i seen varied from €550 to €670 for the same rifle. So this means one dealer can get the rifles, add his touch and sell them for €120 less than another dealer.

Even when Ardee sports were the distributor for most brands i'd ring them to see what they thought the RRP should be and it tallied with some, but not most of the RFDs. So when you say:

bennybrendy wrote: »

If the rfd was to buy the same rifle from a distributor in the uk it will cost 'Y' (Less)
if rfd buys from the uk you have cost of rifle + Delivery + VAT by the time its gets here he will end up paying the same as 'X'

I think to myself what is the hidden cost that costs the punter here an extra €500 - €600.

So breaking it down.

• The rifle in the UK is £600 (€720). That is full retail with VAT added on. As there are no duties from UK (EU and all that)
• Shipping. The cost would be dependent on the weight. So 10lb item would cost say £50 (being overly generous here). Now we are up to £650 (€780).
• Say the importer/distributor got hit with VAT @23% that's an additional £150 (€180) bringing the total up to £800 (€960).
• The distributor adds on say 15% for himself that's an extra £110 (€130) ringing the total up to £910 (€1,090).
• The RFD then adds another 10% which is £90 (€110) leaving a grand total for out the door sales at £1,000 or €1,200.

Is that right?

I'm including double VAT (once in the UK, and once here). I'm also adding in the fact that the distributor is paying full retail for the product when that would surely not happen. They would pay cost price, and then sell at retail.

So removing those two factors removes £250 or €300 from the total cost. Leaving the product (in this case) at €900 not €1,200 and still £150 (€200) more expensive than the UK. However for the purpose of this example i can live with that kind of mark up.


@ IRLConor - So what you are saying is we are paying 200% the price of a rifle for someone to bring it in for us because they have overheads. Not making a little out of it, but with the figures above why would anyone do that?


As i said above i am not interrogating anyone here. I am merely trying to understand how a product some 50 miles of the East coast can cost between 90% to 110% more than there. I knew we were paying higher prices during the "boom" years but surely not now. It's the same for my previous example of the Savage rifle. The distributor did not import one rifle only, and did not pay full retail. As the main distributor they would have brought in multiple models, and at a wholesale price yet the cost is over double the retail price.


I have no objections to any RFD/distributor making a crust. That is the point of running a business. I am not blaming or accusing them of taking all the profits. I also do not claim to understand the intricate details of business. It's just when you sit down and work out the figures they are kinda shocking.

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

@ IRLConor - So what you are saying is we are paying 200% the price of a rifle for someone to bring it in for us because they have overheads.

It's a little more subtle than that. The problem is that a lot of the overheads are fixed and they're large compared to the amount of business being done.

It's not specific to RFDs too, it's a general retail problem. If you want to make money without huge margins you need to sell a lot of whatever you're selling or sell really expensive stuff.

Cass wrote: »

Not making a little out of it, but with the figures above why would anyone do that?

It's why there's a bunch of RFDs who aren't full time at it.

Cass

I'm bot business minded at all. Never even took it in school. but the bottom line would be if we bought more it'd be cheaper. Seems obvious and easy enough to understand. However as we are not, the price or mark ups are higher to offset the lower amount of sales.

Same as the example i listed above about the CZs when i was looking to buy. The dealers i went to had varying sales figures for that firearm. The ones selling for €670 were selling only a few whereas the ones selling for €550 were selling plenty? Would reducing the price, and knowing the demand for an item, not offset the profit to sales margin?

I understand the amount of sales is indicative of demand, but when i got the prices i went with the cheapest dealer. Meaning his sales go up and the more costly dealer is left with more stock.

Also i've imported plenty of stuff from the UK. If i were to buy directly, and even use an RFD here to receive the rifle, the cost to me would be approx. £750 - £800 (€900 - €960). There is no major hassle with importing. Lots of paperwork yes, but no major hassle and not to the extent that for a €300 - €400 saving i wouldn't try it.


Anyway, i apologise to the OP for bringing the thread off topic. I will leave it at that.


My own opinion of the rifle only is that it is a cracking looking rifle, and should money allow i would love to own one. The fun appeal is fantastic, and if Anschutz are involved hopefully it's accurate enough to enjoy.


Will it be available in a select few shops or one? Anyway of viewing one or a list of dealers that stock it?

Thanks, and apologies again.

Witcher

Hilltop had one a few months ago, must have sold it because I haven't seen it in a while. Pat had it priced at 1k flat as far as I can remember.

Based off a Mk.16 SCAR so you'd be looking at a restricted licence. I didn't really see the appeal of it, felt cheap..I've an airsoft SCAR in the corner here that cost €170 that feels more robust.

Sparks

bennybrendy wrote: »

They have recently been cleared by DOJ as unrestricted rifle. It took a long time and a lot of effeort from the irish distributors to get this done.

Hm. Those distributors do know the DoJ can only give out the import licences and the unrestricted/restricted status on the "looks like an assault rifle" clause has nothing to do with the DoJ and is down to the AGS, right?

bennybrendy

They have got clearance from the appropriate legal body i would not be getting one if they didnt.

Witcher

Doesn't matter what 'they' got, you have to get your own clearance from your chief super since it's a restricted rifle. If he says it isn't then and only then are you in the clear. Doesn't matter what tripe the dealer/distributor told you to get you to buy it, it's your responsibility to see to it that you have the correct licence.

bennybrendy

The rifle is a 22lr calibre.
Its a semi auto matic rifle.
It is not designated as a restricted rifle.
The irish distributor is not going to take in ten rifles, market them to RFD's all over the country if it was a rifle that no one can get a license for.

If it was a .308 semi auto then yes your going to run into trouble.
Its a .22.

Witcher

The rifle is based on a Mk16 FN SCAR, therefore according to the 2008 Restricted Firearms SI it is a restricted firearm. Doesn't matter what your dealer has told you, that's the law.

If you apply for a restricted licence and the chief super knocks it back and tells you it's not restricted...that's a different kettle of fish...he's the licencing authority, the dealer isn't.

I'm just telling you the law here, do what you like..it's your liberty on the line. Even if you apply for an unrestricted licence, if the FO looks up a picture of that it will be sent up to the chief super guaranteed.

bennybrendy

Its not a .308 or .223 semi auto.
Its a .22lr semi auto.
Its not a restricted firearm.
Im not going to waste my time or money buying a gun i cant get a licence for and the distributors are not going to sell guns that no one can licence. Firearms distributors in Ireland are good people i know most them.

bravestar

*plugs the microwave in to make the popcorn* I was wondering how long it would take...

Witcher

bennybrendy wrote: »

Its not a .308 or .223 semi auto.
Its a .22lr semi auto.
Its not a restricted firearm.
Im not going to waste my time or money buying a gun i cant get a licence for and the distributors are not going to sell guns that no one can licence. Firearms distributors in Ireland are good people i know most them.

It doesn't matter what the calibre is. The 2008 SI allows for any rifle regardless of calibre which is deemed to 'resemble an assault rifle' to be classed as restricted. If the FO, Super or C.Super looks at that and says 'Yeah that looks like an assault rifle' then it's restricted. Doesn't matter what you say or what the dealer says, it's up to the Gardai and I can't see any Garda looking at that and thinking 'No, that's not restricted'. The only way I could see that being granted an an unrestricted firearm is in error, i.e. the FO doesn't look it up and just sees the Anschutz name and assumes it's just a typical s/a Anschutz rifle...nothing unusual and sends it to the super to be signed off.

I shoot with people that have applied for Umarex rifles in the past as unrestricted and had it passed up to the C.Super because of how it looks. I know someone else that was knocked back for a restricted licence for the same Umarex rifle despite having extensive training and experience with firearms and already holding other restricted firearms. The Gardai just do not like rifles that look a certain way.

Sparks

bennybrendy wrote: »

Its not a .308 or .223 semi auto.
Its a .22lr semi auto.
Its not a restricted firearm.
Im not going to waste my time or money buying a gun i cant get a licence for and the distributors are not going to sell guns that no one can licence. Firearms distributors in Ireland are good people i know most them.

It's nothing to do with the distributors. It's nothing to do with the DoJ. And their agreement with the DoJ is only for importation; not licencing by the people who buy them. Those are completely seperate things.

The issue is down to the rifle and the local superintendent/chief superintendent and it's because of a horribly worded clause in the restricted firearms SI, specifically this bit in the definitions:

“assault rifles” means—
(a) rifles capable of functioning as semi-automatic firearms and as auto-
matic firearms,
(b) firearms that resemble such rifles;

combined with this bit:

4. (1) Firearms other than those to which subparagraph (2) relates are
declared to be restricted firearms for the purposes of the Act:
(2) This subparagraph relates to the following firearms:
...
(c) the following long firearms (not being assault rifles or bullpup rifles):

Here's the thing - whether or not a rifle resembles an assault rifle is a judgement call that your local super/chief super make (and if they disagree, there's no clear call in the law as to who has the final say, but reality would strongly suggest that the chief super does, though you could probably push it to the courts if you really wanted to). So some people will be able to licence this rifle without issue and some won't and there's no way to tell ahead of time.

Sparks

Blay wrote: »

If the FO, Super or C.Super looks at that

Well, the latter two anyway, the FO doesn't actually have a say in things and we've been told to ignore them if they say stuff like that when you make the application (and we were told that by the Firearms Policy Unit in the Gardai so it's not just some lad in a pub saying so).


Of course, we really need to stress the point here that the unrestricted/restricted licence thing is just a paperwork issue most of the time. Most target shooters already exceed the security requirements for the restricted licences; it's just that you have to apply to the right person (super or chief super) for the right kind of licence (unrestricted or restricted, respectively) and that the onus is on you, the applicant, to do so - any fault is not legally the Gardai's liability.

But you could be in an area where the chief super thinks that any firearm that looks like that shouldn't be owned by a private individual, and if you are, you're pretty much stuffed, even though there's nothing in that rifle that isn't in a 10/22...

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

*plugs the microwave in to make the popcorn* I was wondering how long it would take...

Possibly not the most helpful thing you could have said there really

bravestar

Where does this leave something like the GSG5, since it resembles a SMG and not an assault rifle?

Don't intend on getting one, just curious on people's opinions?

-Trying to be constructive this time, sparks

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

Where does this leave something like the GSG5, since it resembles a SMG and not an assault rifle?

See, you're confusing reality and law again
As far as the act is concerned, an SMG is just an assault rifle. So again, it's down to the local super/chief super.

(BTW, it's not like we're only just saying now that this is a stupid bit of law, we said it the day it came out too but it's never been fixed and we're stuck with it for now).

bravestar

Sparks wrote: »

See, you're confusing reality and law again
As far as the act is concerned, an SMG is just an assault rifle. So again, it's down to the local super/chief super.

Your generally fairly good with this stuff sparks, and hats off for the obvious time you take and experience you bring to the table but where is the source for the SMG=assault rifle? (in legal fantasy land)

Edit: semi and full auto.. Answered my own question! Disregard

Witcher

bravestar wrote: »

Where does this leave something like the GSG5, since it resembles a SMG and not an assault rifle?

Don't intend on getting one, just curious on people's opinions?

The guards will still say it's restricted. Arguing SMG vs assault rifle would get you nowhere, they'll just refuse it and no judge would come down on your side on that issue. What argument could you make in a court that would convince a judge that you need a GSG5 and that the super is wrong?

AFAIK the guy I mentioned that got refused his restricted licence didn't even bother appealing because of that. There's nothing a GSG5/this Anschutz rifle can do that a unrestricted S/a won't and as we know that's a requirement when applying for a restricted firearm.

bravestar

Blay wrote: »

The guards will still say it's restricted. Arguing SMG vs assault rifle would get you nowhere, they'll just refuse it and no judge would come down on your side on that issue. What argument could you make in a court that would convince a judge that you need a GSG5 and that the super is wrong?

AFAIK the guy I mentioned that got refused his restricted licence didn't even bother appealing because of that. There's nothing a GSG5 can do that a unrestricted S/a won't and as we know that's a requirement when applying for a restricted firearm.

I'm well aware of what guards say...

I'll stick with my CZ, it was just a question that I answered myself as above.

Witcher

bravestar wrote: »

I'm well aware of what guards say...

I'll stick with my CZ, it was just a question that I answered myself as above.

I meant supers/c.super not the lower ranks:pac:

We all know this is horsesh1t but we have to go through it, imo it was designed in part to make people not want to bother applying for restricted firearms. I would love an M1 Carbine or a .38 lever action and have adequate reason because my club caters for them but I just couldn't be bothered going through the rigmarole, the c.super here leaves you waiting the full 3 months afaik and it's just too much hassle in general for me so I don't bother.

bravestar

Blay wrote: »

I meant supers/c.super not the lower ranks:pac:

I'll take that as a compliment

In all honesty, is there any point to these rifles? Generally they are cheaply made and don't group worth a damn. Now I might be wrong with this MSR, but I won't hold my breath

Witcher

bravestar wrote: »

I'll take that as a compliment

In all honesty, is there any point to these rifles? Generally they are cheaply made and don't group worth a damn. Now I might be wrong with this MSR, but I won't hold my breath

Just joshing ya:pac:

As I said I know a guy that has a Umarex HK416 and it seems pretty well made and shoots ok from what I've seen but he went through some hassle to get it and a 10/22 would probably do as good a job so you're putting yourself out just for the looks really.