Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland

sarumite

Valetta wrote: »

Is this the genius that came up with the brainwave where the banks would sell their deposit books, not realising that deposits held by banks are in fact liabilities.

F.Y.I ad hominem are considered to be fallacious arguments.

Valetta

sarumite wrote: »

F.Y.I ad hominem are considered to be fallacious arguments.

IMO it devalues any opinion he has.

hotbabe1992

golfwallah wrote: »

I keep coming across anecdotal evidence of people taking advantage of our welfare system in all its manifestations to attain a comfortable lifestyle.




Refreshing to hear one Hollywood personality talking a bit of sense about this issue in the USA:
http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/66346691371/ashton-kutcher-theres-an-entitlement-starting-to

LOL i just have to laugh when you say that there is a hollywood personality to talk about the issue of welfare,do you know in america they live on food vouchers?????They have also had them cut recently because some rich republicans said so..


In case you havent noticed those hollywood personalities are hardly qualified to give an adequate crittique on this issue as they are far removed from society..

Nobody lives comfortable on social welfare you should try it some time..

Joan burton has cut welfare pushing those on small pennies into homelessness,she has chased small pennies here,she hurt honest people struggling on welfare,and fraud(the ones she should be after) is still happening on the irish social welfare system,even with big sister in place..

You talk about ancedotal evidence,but have no real evidence at all.. Poverty is a man made phenomenon made by a lot who dont want to give a fair share of the government pie..


I wonder why you put this thread up,is it to bash those on the dole??I work part time and get **** all,i had been on the dole for 3 years, and you know what i got???Nothing but f***cking judgement from mealy mouthed f***rs like you which doesn't exactly help morale and confidence which is what you need to get a job..


I just find it funny how you say that the entitlement culture is killing the will to work in ireland,you know we live in a climate with slave schemes like job bridge sucking up what jobs could be left in our economy - and people are leaving ireland to the tune of 87,000 - 100,000 per year on average,are you listening?And you say that its ENTITLEMENT CULTURE KILLING THE WILL TO WORK?Listen there are no jobs out there,there are a lot of job bridge jobs out there,why should someone settle for a job bridge job when they can **** off to australia and get a couple of grand saved up..

There are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WORK but can't as the jobs simply aren't out there,there are kids teaming out of college with no jobs available in the area that they studied in..Some end up on the dole others go to emigrate to other countries - those in case you havent noticed are the only options out there..

So sit there with your mealy mouth and pontificate with your hollywood personality star buddy about those on welfare..

edit: sorry for all the swearing but people like him really get my goat..

sarumite

Valetta wrote: »

IMO it devalues any opinion he has.

If you feel comfortable using fallacious arguments, then fair enough. Personally I don't, but each to their own.

Valetta

sarumite wrote: »

If you feel comfortable using fallacious arguments, then fair enough. Personally I don't, but each to their own.

Where did I make Amy argument?

I firstly asked a question, and then gave an opinion.

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023262.shtml

Have a read of the 7th paragraph there I will just copy and paste it in as well

IBEC director Brendan McGinty said: “Ireland is simply not in a position to fund existing public service pension liabilities. Plans to reform rules for new entrants are welcome, but need to go much further. Existing public sector workers should no longer qualify for pensions based exclusively on their final retirement salary, instead pensions should be based on an average salary of future service. Also, pensioners should not automatically qualify for pension increases if serving staff are awarded pay rises.

"Despite the pension-related deductions in 2009 and pay reductions in 2010, the cost of public sector pensions will still amount to €2.9bn gross in 2011.The current overall cost of outstanding and unfunded public sector pensions could be at least €130bn, equal to 83% of total GDP. Pensions now account for 14% of the government's total pay and pensions bill, up 44% since 2008. This is no longer affordable, the taxpayer is simply not in a position to pick up the tab.

I believe it is now based on average salary for new entrants but there is still a very large public sector pension hole that needs to be covered.

http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/pension-and-crises/

Lucey reckons its over 100billino back in 2012..

Epic fail.

Brian Lucey refers to the 2008 report which I linked to above so he is not talking about 2012.

He also, as I do, points to the changes that have taken place since 2008 to reduce that 100bn bill. In fact, he misses some of the ones I highlighted such as the pay cuts and the reduction in public service numbers.

He then goes on to point to the hole in the non-contributory pensions and the contributory pensions given to the private sector which aren't been paid for either and which nobody talks about.

Brendan McGinty's piece is from 2011. Since then we have had cuts in pension rates and the new pension scheme so while his statement might have been right in 2011, steps have been taken since then to address the issue.

Once again, you have helped to prove my point that the €100bn (or €116 bn or €109 bn or €156 bn depending on which part of the report you read) estimated in 2008 has been signifcantly reduced but that nobody has carried out an exercise since then to accurately estimate how much lower.

sarumite

Valetta wrote: »

Where did I make Amy argument?

I firstly asked a question, and then gave an opinion.

Was I mistaken in thinking your question was purely rhetorical?

ardmacha

He then goes on to point to the hole in the non-contributory pensions and the contributory pensions given to the private sector which aren't been paid for either and which nobody talks about.

And of course many people about to retire in the PS will not receive a contributory pensions, so the PS "hole" is all the bigger as a consequence of accounting treatment.

srsly78

I for one am shocked to hear that the non-contributory pension has not been paid for.

Godge

srsly78 wrote: »

I for one am shocked to hear that the non-contributory pension has not been paid for.

Yes, we get the sarcasm, but consider this.

A clerical officer who works for 40 years for the state, paying his taxes, paying his PRSI, paying his pension contribution and pension levy will end up with a pension of €340.

A returning emigrant with his foreign-born wife who paid no tax, who made no contribution to Ireland will be entitled to a pension of €353.70.

A single man who leaves school after the Junior Cert and spends his life on the dole is entitled to a pension of €219.

Who is hard done by in the scenario?

srsly78

Hard to say, you miss a lot of the details. Depends where the returning emigrant comes from, Ireland has treaties with lots of countries allowing them to repatriate state their pension contributions. This also works the other way around... Consider poor muggins here that has paid ****loads of mandatory pension contributions in 4 EU countries.

Also, non-contrib = means-tested. Contributory is not means-tested, thus can be supplemented.

Godge

srsly78 wrote: »

Hard to say, you miss a lot of the details. Depends where the returning emigrant comes from, Ireland has treaties with lots of countries allowing them to repatriate state their pension contributions. This also works the other way around... Consider poor muggins here that has paid ****loads of mandatory pension contributions in 4 EU countries.

Also, non-contrib = means-tested. Contributory is not means-tested, thus can be supplemented.

If you are a returning emigrant and you are playing the system, you leave your means abroad so that you can qualify for the non-contributory, doesn't matter where you came from.

You don't address the single guy sitting on the dole for 50 years versus the married clerical officer working for 40 years.

There should be some acknowledgement of those who work.

srsly78

I agree of course, the thread title says it all.

I do not agree with your playing the system point however. Not declaring offshore bank accounts/property/income etc is illegal. So you might as well be complaining about bank robbers not paying tax on their earnings.

golfwallah

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That's all fine but we do not have a balanced society. We still have massive emigration which adversely skews the economics of the country and deprives us of future innovation and development. If we kept all our people then we would go forward and achieve a better society and financial success. Until we stop the brain drain then we are stuck in a rut, and it will matter little who is in power.

I’m not sure what you mean by a balanced society. Maybe a more socialist one, where everyone partakes in an equal share of misery? Or perhaps a more capitalist one, where everyone partakes in an unequal share of blessings? Either way, we can’t afford to just wait for society to “balance” itself. What’s missing is the political will to take decisive action to get people off over-dependence on welfare and back to work or training, so they can play their own independent meaningful part in society again. And this includes finding ways to incentivise people into education and training areas where there is an economic demand (as opposed to thoughtlessly turning out so many with general arts degrees, suited to teaching, or with degrees with limited practical use, such as archaeology).

And yes, we do have emigration of our own people, moving elsewhere (to Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, etc.) because of the recession to make a living and gain more experience they can’t get at home. Many of these people will return to Ireland someday, better qualified and more experienced, and contribute to our economy in the future (as I did quite some time ago). Many others won’t return, but will play their part as productive members of society in their new adopted homelands. Of these, past experience is that the vast majority will retain affection for their original home country and support us in many ways as part of the Irish diaspora.

We also have quite a bit of immigration into Ireland, of which other EU nationals form a large part, of people seeking jobs that our own citizens do not want.

And what’s wrong with either inward or outward migration? They are both manifestations of self reliance and practicality in the face of adversity, as opposed to giving up and relying on welfare.

It’s always easy to find excuses for doing nothing and blaming society, the government or whatever for our problems. I know there are no easy answers, but how about some solutions instead of problems?

johnr1

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

i had been on the dole for 3 years, and you know what i got???Nothing but f***cking judgement from mealy mouthed f***rs like you.....


Listen there are no jobs out there....

There are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WORK but can't as the jobs simply aren't out there.....

So you didn't get any money or benefits from these working people you call f***ers then? These people who kept you fed, clothed and housed for three years while they paid their taxes to keep you in the style you were accustomed to?
Guys, this is what they think of us.... "fcukers" for caring how OUR money is spent on them.

So there are no jobs then? Read my earlier post about how long it took me to find one last week: Three hours.

QED. Point is proven by this poster. Close the thread.

Niall Keane

golfwallah wrote: »

Or perhaps a more capitalist one, where everyone partakes in an unequal share of blessings?

Here read this, old enough now to be proven correct:


http://www.scribd.com/doc/30092320/eBook-Eng-PDF-Chomsky-Noam-Profit-Over-People-Neoliberalism-and-Global-Order

Wake Up People, with incentives for foreign investment, trade agreements and the like, that set corporations (special interest groups) above governments (citizens), with IMF conditions etc. , with engineered job insecurity paid for by the working tax payers subbing large business with interns, tax breaks etc. the stage has been set for a future of low growth and diminishing small to medium domestic business opportunity.
Unemployment is "desired" by international corporations, it means a workforce willing to work for peanuts, Ireland will become a free-economic zone of Europe, a "knowledge Economy" of "call-Centers" with continuing to diminish under €20k jobs (check the entry salary for multinationals over the past 5 years!!!) Mexico as Chomsky states went down this same route of pandering to the multinationals with an elite few Mexicans making billions from it, and now 50% of it's people victims of this "Washington Consensus" "success story" cannot afford to feed them selves properly.

Think about the ESB strike? They get paid too much right?

Who creates the wealth they generate? Should those workers get it or should the government get it to pay off national debts engineered by the financial sector?

In every "democracy" the IMF has infiltrated, Social Welfare, Health and Education suffers you fools! Look at the facts, the results, not the propaganda!

You don't want to pay for people on benefits, then ask why we "give away" our natural resources? Most Oil States demanded 50% of profits from multinationals, what are we demanding? (Lybia used to, and was so opulent it gave a free car to every newly married couple, the ex-USSR had all the contracts though, US sorted that though, now only 15% goes back to Lybia) What do we get? A few jobs down in Mayo, and maybe a maintenance contract for windmills? That money could be used for capital expenditure and create jobs, but that would give people more options and mean a discerning labor force. Business wouldn't want that now? How could they compete with the other slave nations?

I suggest anyone serious about economics and democracy read Chomsky's works, he tends to ask the right questions!

srsly78

You were doing well until you started the whole "dey tuk awr oil" thing.

If we have given all of this oil away for free, how come absolutely none of it has ever left the ground?

Idbatterim

Think about the ESB strike? They get paid too much right?

Who creates the wealth they generate? Should those workers get it or should the government get it to pay off national debts engineered by the financial sector?

the government should, far more worthwhile stuff for it to be spent on, paying down debt for one!

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

Yes, we get the sarcasm, but consider this.

A clerical officer who works for 40 years for the state, paying his taxes, paying his PRSI, paying his pension contribution and pension levy will end up with a pension of €340.

A returning emigrant with his foreign-born wife who paid no tax, who made no contribution to Ireland will be entitled to a pension of €353.70.

A single man who leaves school after the Junior Cert and spends his life on the dole is entitled to a pension of €219.

Who is hard done by in the scenario?

Godge wrote: »

If you are a returning emigrant and you are playing the system, you leave your means abroad so that you can qualify for the non-contributory, doesn't matter where you came from.

You don't address the single guy sitting on the dole for 50 years versus the married clerical officer working for 40 years.

There should be some acknowledgement of those who work.

The question is Godge has the CO after 40 years being playing the system as well???

Why after 40 years are they still a CO. Most with a little ambition will be SO's.

Some will have worked in to Special advisors to politicians or have migrated into other sectors of the PS. Most will also get 1.5 years final salary. This may be 60K+.

After 40 years a labourer working his fingers to he bone will end up with a contributory pension of a little over 210/week. again only a few euro ahead of the incoming migrant.

However he will not get a final finishing Bonus of 50+K.

It is not all one side.

Yours with a different view
Pudsey

Count Dooku

Niall Keane wrote: »

Unemployment is "desired" by international corporations, it means a workforce willing to work for peanuts, Ireland will become a free-economic zone of Europe, a "knowledge Economy" of "call-Centers" with continuing to diminish under €20k jobs (check the entry salary for multinationals over the past 5 years!!!)

Who else will create sustainable jobs in Ireland?

Niall Keane wrote: »

Think about the ESB strike? They get paid too much right?

Who creates the wealth they generate? Should those workers get it or should the government get it to pay off national debts engineered by the financial sector?

State granted to ESB workers license for monopoly to screw customers

Niall Keane wrote: »

I suggest anyone serious about economics and democracy read Chomsky's works, he tends to ask the right questions!

Every idiot can ask questions, because it doesn't require any brain effort, rather to think why it happens

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Why after 40 years are they still a CO. Most with a little ambition will be SO's.


After 40 years a labourer working his fingers to he bone will end up with a contributory pension of a little over 210/week. again only a few euro ahead of the incoming migrant.

Pudsey

The Q is Pudsey why is the labourer still labouring afer 40 years - lack of ambition?

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

The Q is Pudsey why is the labourer still labouring afer 40 years - lack of ambition?

I did not say he did not lack ambition however I was pointing out the similarties but the different treatment money wise.

Niall Keane

Count Dooku wrote: »

Who else will create sustainable jobs in Ireland?



State granted to ESB workers license for monopoly to screw customers



Every idiot can ask questions, because it doesn't require any brain effort, rather to think why it happens

1. the people of Ireland, who else? (60% already by local SMEs) Do you believe that there something genetically wrong with Irish people that prevents this? It is interesting on another thread an insider admits that state subsidies exist for "anything high-tech, and I mean anything " and how job development funding is geared towards multinational investment rather than local small to medium size business that currently employs 60% of the working population.

2. Do you honestly believe in the illusion of a "free market"? Those multinationals we seek to become wage slaves of did not grow in a "free market" they were generally "protected". What do I mean?

To quote Chomsky:

"I mean we talk about ourselves as a "free market" but that's baloney! The only parts of the U.S. economy that are internationally competitive are the planned parts - like capital intensive agriculture (which has a state guaranteed market as a cushion in case there are excesses); or high-tech industry (which is dependent on the Pentagon system); or Pharmaceuticals (which is massively subsidized by publicly funded research). Those are the parts of the U.S. economy that are functioning well."

(The Pentagon System is the mechanism by which vast sums of public monies are transferred to the military and those private corporations involved in research and development, it is a far more efficient system of transferring public wealth to elites than say awarding construction contracts, where more of the money bleeds into the hands of labour as opposed to the elite.)

He quotes an extensive study of transnational corporations carried out by Winfried Ruigrock and Rob van Tulder which found that

"virtually all of the world's largest core firms have experienced a decisive infulence from government policies and / or trade barriers on their strategy and competitive position" and "at least twenty companies in the 1993 Fortune 100 would not have survived at all as independent companies, if they had not been saved by their respective governments"

(by socialising losses or by simple state take over when they were in trouble)


Chomsky wrote that in 1998 and the study is 1994, UNCANNY how accurate and true to today is still stands, then again if the formula works keep going right?

For Ireland today....
Also we have trade agreements ( our low corporate tax) that can and will eventually be competed against by other banana republics, and so non-Irish multinationals will have more "say" and "influence" over our "sovereign" state that Paddy with his single vote in our "democracy". Our government will dance to what ever jig called for by our Corporate masters. A race to the bottom has begun!

Isn't it interesting that 20 years later we seek to focus on the exact industries Chomsky tells us are protected from up on high by the U.S. "virtual de-facto government" are the ones we are now directing our public monies towards and that those "international" corporations are mainly of the U.S. ?
The elites controlling such corporations must be thrilled with us, slave labor and tax-haven from the same nation!

So the "protection" of the ESB is no different, well save it's more honest, they pay for their own research and don't interface with Universities bribing them to follow their research interests for relative pennies!


3. your final point displays true ignorance (the view point, as in lack of knowledge of the particular works)), clearly you haven't read even an introduction, or you simply cannot understand? the man "specializes" is explaining how and why, the "important" question is why does the populace buy into this deception? Again he offers explanation "manufacturing consent", and how fear of the "ignorant masses" the in his words "ultimate weapon" of numbers of votes and popular protest is being addressed by "special interest groups" seeking to replace democracy with technocratic rule by "our betters", and reducing state to fulfilling the role of "enforcing contracts"!

If you mean the onus is to provide a detailed alternative, this thinking is wrong, no one individual or collective should attempt to arrive at a "perfect solution", like physics - experiment is required, evolution! In the 18th century it would have been hard to display a working model of a political democracy, by the 19th they existed!

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The question is Godge has the CO after 40 years being playing the system as well???

Why after 40 years are they still a CO. Most with a little ambition will be SO's.

Some will have worked in to Special advisors to politicians or have migrated into other sectors of the PS. Most will also get 1.5 years final salary. This may be 60K+.

After 40 years a labourer working his fingers to he bone will end up with a contributory pension of a little over 210/week. again only a few euro ahead of the incoming migrant.

However he will not get a final finishing Bonus of 50+K.

It is not all one side.

Yours with a different view
Pudsey

The labourer with have a contributory pension of 210 a week. However, if they work for a decent employer they will have a top-up pension from the construction workers pension scheme.

http://www.cwps.ie/

That pension may or may not bring their total pension beyond the total pension of a clerical officer.

Yes, there are cowboy employers out there who don't use that pension scheme but should the government be a decent employer or a cowboy employer?

Count Dooku

Niall Keane wrote: »

1. the people of Ireland, who else? (60% already by local SMEs) Do you believe that there something genetically wrong with Irish people that prevents this? It is interesting on another thread an insider admits that state subsidies exist for "anything high-tech, and I mean anything " and how job development funding is geared towards multinational investment rather than local small to medium size business that currently employs 60% of the working population.

Foreign owned companies make 90% if Irish export. Most of small businesses lives from providing services to them or multiplying money spent by MNC's staff in local economy

Niall Keane wrote: »

2. Do you honestly believe in the illusion of a "free market"?

I don't believe to socialism and central planning

Niall Keane wrote: »

Those multinationals we seek to become wage slaves of did not grow in a "free market" they were generally "protected". What do I mean?

MNC's are coming here for low taxes,
Ireland with its massive welfare benefits and minimal wage is hardly the best place to look for "wage slaves"

Niall Keane wrote: »

To quote Chomsky:

Rubbish,
Google, Apple, Microsoft made very little out from Pentagon

johnr1

Godge wrote: »

The labourer with have a contributory pension of 210 a week. However, if they work for a decent employer they will have a top-up pension from the construction workers pension scheme.

http://www.cwps.ie/

That pension may or may not bring their total pension beyond the total pension of a clerical officer.

Yes, there are cowboy employers out there who don't use that pension scheme but should the government be a decent employer or a cowboy employer?

My uninformed friend, the only cowboys in that equation are the CWPS. We often refer to something as a "scam" but that IS actually a scam, as everyone who has had any dealings with them knows.

Try this, - guy joins in 1989 or so, when it was set up, pays his dues as does his company until retirement in 2010, - 21 years. How much does he get on retirement? €3.25 pw.

If you're interested, google the high court case from last year where the purveyors of this scam were beaten and precedent created that it is no longer legally necessary for employers and employees to contribute approx €55 pw into this retirement fund for a few retired union officials, who appear to be the only ones benefitting from this state sponsored theft.

.

Niall Keane

Count Dooku wrote: »

Foreign owned companies make 90% if Irish export. Most of small businesses lives from providing services to them or multiplying money spent by MNC's staff in local economy

Very interesting, is that your opinion or can you back that up with research and fact?


I don't believe to socialism and central planning

"A white horse osn't a horse" - seeing as you are getting into zen koans? You know offering an answer bearing no relation to the question! But on your assertion, good for you, I partly agree, certainly about central / State controls - top down, undemocratic authority and if you take socialism to be USSR style bureaucracy then I totally agree!

MNC's are coming here for low taxes,
Ireland with its massive welfare benefits and minimal wage is hardly the best place to look for "wage slaves"

"Massive" welfare benefits, I am safe in the knowledge that you have never raised a family on welfare and therefore havent a clue what you are talking about! The fact that so many humans "work" 40 plus hours a week for 6k more or maybe less than welfare demonstrates the impossible poverty faced by welfare recipients. So say minimum wage is 6k greater than welfare. logically such people work 40 hours a week 46 weeks a year so 1840 hours a year for 6k, whats that per hour? Less than €3! I dont know but that seems akin to slavery to me!
And they are desperate - it is false to say they enter "willingly" into employment contracts when the alternative is abject poverty!
Supply and demand dictates its an employers market, and wages have fallen dramatically in many sectors and in most others have been frozen which means in real terms reduced.
It is the best of times for such employers!

Rubbish,
Google, Apple, Microsoft made very little out from Pentagon

Another koan? i mentioned the areas and percentages of companies affected. I know that in the 80's the US dod impose tarrifs on Japanese PCs which would have undercut domestic produce! Hard to see how Apple wouldn't have benefited?
Where are the products manufactured today? In the US? Did not trade agreements many "kept from the eyes of Congress" to be rubber stamped by the president help create situations where Labour could be threatened with production leaving the US and moving to countries with trade agreements in place? Again, read the book I linked in Particular the chapters on such trade agreents and the WTO and IMF involvment. See how the share of profits have evolved in te past 50 years, ie the diminishing share to labour and massive increase to the elite.

You are not really presenting an argument here at all, just misquoting using the catch phrases of the clown as if seeking to dismiss and disparage what you already know to be true?

Im not going to try and convince you, i feel that would be pointless, and please feel free to misquote me again being careful with what you snip, or please do ignore the principle of my points and seek out examples that contradict on detail, please have the last word, i will actually consider it, i think it important to try to understand other perspectives, like i await your evidence about how Ireland is more or less totally dependant on scraps from the multinational table as you stated?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Niall Keane wrote: »

You are not really presenting an argument here at all, just misquoting using the catch phrases of the clown as if seeking to dismiss and disparage what you already know to be true?

Neither are you. You just seem to have some sort of fetish for Noam Chomsky.

Niall Keane

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Neither are you. You just seem to have some sort of fetish for Noam Chomsky.

Good lad! We call that "quoting" and helping to present a viewpoint using the research and observations of others. Its not really innovative, sorry.

You may find such points of view distasteful? Or in conflict with your world view / belief systems? but not to see relevance to the subject matter and as such their presenting an opposing perspective or "argument" reflects more on your intelligence or psychology.

Perhaps you are dismissing me with such a childish remark "well neither did you!" to support your friend?
I didnt realise this was a support group for fragile egos rather than a forum for economic and political "discussion" , apologies!

Hmmmm, come to think of it, you did mention "fetishes", oh i really hope I'm not interfering with a group therapy session?
So sorry!
You are right in all you say! We are all behind you! hope you get well soon!

p1akuw47h5r3it

Niall Keane wrote: »

You may find such points of view distasteful? Or in conflict with your world view / belief systems?

No I find such points of view as ridiculous. Chomsky is a left libertarian who believes in socializing productive property (how this is to be achieved is anyone's guess) and is against wage labour.

Left libertarians believe in a non-hierarchical society which simply goes against human nature.

Count Dooku

Niall Keane wrote: »

Very interesting, is that your opinion or can you back that up with research and fact?

Foreign-owned firms accounted for 91% of Ireland's tradeable exports in 2009;

Niall Keane wrote: »

"Massive" welfare benefits, I am safe in the knowledge that you have never raised a family on welfare and therefore havent a clue what you are talking about!

Do you have a clue about welfare benefits in another countries, especially for long term unemployed?

Niall Keane wrote: »

Another koan? i mentioned the areas and percentages of companies affected. I know that in the 80's the US dod impose tarrifs on Japanese PCs which would have undercut domestic produce! Hard to see how Apple wouldn't have benefited?

Another rubbish from Chomsky. Tariffs were imposed to protect IBM from cheap high quality clones of 8086 based PC's(I had myself Fujitsu with V20 and it was much better than original IBM PC), but Japanese never made any copies of Apple computers

Niall Keane wrote: »

See how the share of profits have evolved in te past 50 years, ie the diminishing share to labour and massive increase to the elite.

Because there is oversupply of those who want have simple well paid jobs and undersupply of those who capable to create them

Niall Keane

Count Dooku wrote: »

Foreign-owned firms accounted for 91% of Ireland's tradeable exports in 2009;



Do you have a clue about welfare benefits in another countries, especially for long term unemployed?


Another rubbish from Chomsky. Tariffs were imposed to protect IBM from cheap high quality clones of 8086 based PC's(I had myself Fujitsu with V20 and it was much better than original IBM PC), but Japanese never made any copies of Apple computers



Because there is oversupply of those who want have simple well paid jobs and undersupply of those who capable to create them

1. From your report...

"In current price terms, exports increased from €105bn in 2000 to €151bn in 2009 but there was no net jobs growth in the sector"

Isn't that really interesting?

So Ireland is a tax haven, where profits are laundered and this doesnt even create more jobs!

2. I am certainly aware of how welfare, health and education have been attacked by IMF policy in many unlucky countries.

3. Hanging on moot points again?Microsoft and apple create the operating system for all computers, any pentagon system or any other protection methods used in any high-tech area has a knock on effect for such companies, hence the point is about the sector not just individual companies who may only indirectly gain advantage, but unfair advantage regarding the "free market" none the less. Dont pretend otherwise, it fools noone!

4. Ah! The "undeserving", but did i not point out how beneficial your slave class is to big business, how important unemployment is in ensuring job insecurity and lower wages. Again you know damn well! You just hate having to feed the reserves, even if they keep wages low and are a useful scapegoat but i guess machines you turn on and off as suits is what you really want!

Wouldn't it be great if we could cryogenically freeze the long term unemployed until a boom comes along? Oh! Wait! No need! We have massive youth emigration!

srsly78

Ireland exports loads of military ordnance Niall, I should know I worked for the company doing it

crypto software is classed as restricted ordnance under american law, not allowed to sell to North Korea or Iran etc

hotbabe1992

I dont think there is an entitlement culture in ireland,obviously there are some scammers here and there,but that is to be expected in any country that has a welfare system in place..

Society is judged by how we treat our poorest and most vunerable in our countries.

Poverty is a man made phenomenon,it is made by greedy corrupt politicians(look at the shut down of america done by rich republicans who couldn't agree on healthcare for all,even the poorest over that they shut down the whole system) what about their welfare it is far more expensive,think about it half the TD's and politicans deputys or whatever do not even turn up for dail meetings and still get paid and expenses and pensions on top of that.A pre requirement for a pension is just 2 years work in the dail,if we are to be looking at the money we are doling out there in comparison to social welfare i would say the dail would dwarf that!!

That aside,and i know thats only a side issue,i think that what is killing the will to work in ireland is schemes(like slave labour schemes) such as Fas ''jobs'' and Jobbridge jobs..


People can be rehired on job bridge and fas schemes without the employer in question even hiring one member of staff they have sourced from these freebie schemes..

This is what is killing the will to work in ireland,if you ask me.


BTW,unemployment is supposed to be decreasing,but i would say thats due to job bridge slave workers being taken off the register,and also the droves of qualified irish leaving for better oppurtunities in the jobs market..

Common sense..

golfwallah

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

look at the shut down of america done by rich republicans who couldn't agree on healthcare for all,even the poorest over that they shut down the whole system

I don’t thinks it’s as simple as you say. Sure, most will agree that there is a need for a safety net for social welfare and for health. But there are limits to how much the taxpayer can afford and how much we can borrow to cover shortfalls.

And, however about Troika loan conditions, markets lending from next year onwards will demand action to get borrowing under control – the alternatives being higher interest rates or inability to borrow at any price.

There’s also the question of government competence – just look at the mess reported on implementing Obamacare in the States: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/are-republicans-right-abo_b_4173516.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

hotbabe1992

The only people hating on obama care are those who can afford their own health insurance , god forbid one day you might not be able to afford health insurance,and you get cancer what then just die on the street?

Its cruel to deny people a fundamental right to life, a right to whatever medical treatment is available if a disease can be prevented/cured even better.

Think of it from a public saftey point of view what if there was an outbreak of polio or TB or leprosy , should we just leave those patients untreated and have a complete outbreak??

Think about it for a minute,let the implications sink in..Its not all about figures,percentages and numbers,there are enviornmental,health and social issues at steak here..

Count Dooku

Niall Keane wrote: »

1. From your report...

"In current price terms, exports increased from €105bn in 2000 to €151bn in 2009 but there was no net jobs growth in the sector"

Isn't that really interesting?

Not really, just top management is doing its job and improving performance through efficiencies

Niall Keane wrote: »

So Ireland is a tax haven, where profits are laundered and this doesnt even create more jobs!

If there is no incentive to create export oriented businesses, because you create more wealth from local market(like property speculation) then it is what country is deserved.

Niall Keane wrote: »

2. I am certainly aware of how welfare, health and education have been attacked by IMF policy in many unlucky countries.

Lucky/unlucky used only by gamblers, who wants to become rich without any efforts

Niall Keane wrote: »

3. Hanging on moot points again?Microsoft and apple create the operating system for all computers, any pentagon system or any other protection methods used in any high-tech area has a knock on effect for such companies, hence the point is about the sector not just individual companies who may only indirectly gain advantage, but unfair advantage regarding the "free market" none the less. Dont pretend otherwise, it fools noone!

Could you explain me how Apple benefited from Pentagon?

Niall Keane wrote: »

4. Ah! The "undeserving", but did i not point out how beneficial your slave class is to big business, how important unemployment is in ensuring job insecurity and lower wages. Again you know damn well! You just hate having to feed the reserves, even if they keep wages low and are a useful scapegoat but i guess machines you turn on and off as suits is what you really want!

Big business doesn't care about unemployment, slaves etc. The only thing what it cares is how to decrease cost of production, because costumers want more for less

Niall Keane wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if we could cryogenically freeze the long term unemployed until a boom comes along? Oh! Wait! No need! We have massive youth emigration!

Do you mean that it better to lie that property bubble must last forever?

Farmer Pudsey

Godge wrote: »

The labourer with have a contributory pension of 210 a week. However, if they work for a decent employer they will have a top-up pension from the construction workers pension scheme.

http://www.cwps.ie/

That pension may or may not bring their total pension beyond the total pension of a clerical officer.

Yes, there are cowboy employers out there who don't use that pension scheme but should the government be a decent employer or a cowboy employer?

Godge jus a back of the matchbox calculation on the pension element. The difference between the the OAP and the CO is a little over 120/week. Thst is equivlent to 6240/year. A private sector worker would need va pension fund of 156K to draw down thsi difference add 50+ for the lump sum. Therefore thje labourer would have tp accumlate a pension fund of 200K to equal this.

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Godge jus a back of the matchbox calculation on the pension element. The difference between the the OAP and the CO is a little over 120/week. Thst is equivlent to 6240/year. A private sector worker would need va pension fund of 156K to draw down thsi difference add 50+ for the lump sum. Therefore thje labourer would have tp accumlate a pension fund of 200K to equal this.

over 40 years, that would be quite an easy pension pot to get together.
In simple terms, 200/40 is just 5k per year in pension contributions, and thats before tax relief and allowing for a realistic growth percentage which will reduce how much the labourer would actually have to save into the fund on a weekly basis.

Plus he will then get his state OAP to compliment this.

_Kaiser_

I haven't read the entire thread but a quick skim over the last few posts tells me that it's the usual back-and-forth that goes on here.

Anyway, on the original question of what's killing the will to work in this country? Government policy towards those who still ARE working.

I didn't buy into the madness of the "good times" despite the fortnightly offers of "practically free money" for everything from mortgages, cars, holidays, doing up the house, whatever you fancy really ... and yet I'm still paying for those that did both in direct taxation, cost of living increases and as a result I'll probably now never be able to buy a house if I wanted to.

I'm on a decent wage, yet by the time I pay for everything each month there's feck all left. I'm about to lose another €200 a month come January too thanks to changes in the single parent tax credit setup and my rent is likely to increase because there's a load of property that's not being released onto the market (combined with plain old Irish greed) which will take more money off me.

So even though I will probably get an increase in work because of my "fantastic" (I'm told) performance this year, in REAL terms I'll probably be lucky to break even.

In the meantime of course the same old shyte that passes for governance in this country and the complete lack of accountability from those in charge, coupled with zero consequences to those who played roulette with the State's future and lost, continues as normal.

THAT is what kills the reason to work in this country - because doing things "right" and paying your way only exposes you to be screwed over even more!

Scortho

Kaiser2000 I agree with it all, except the property section.
Where are these properties that aren't being released onto the market? (if its outside the GDA that you rent in, then ignore this post in its entirety).
From what I can see, most of the Nama stock is available to rent as there's no advantage letting ready to move into apartments in dublin lie vacant. If its a concrete shell of an apartment block, then it in its current condition isn't going to have much effect on local rental prices, as you can't count that as housing stock.
Likewise, a landlord will only charge what the market is willing to pay. If he's 50 % more expensive than an equivalent property, then its going to be vacant for a very long time.

golfwallah

Link to article below compares cultural differences between Spain & USA, where “earned success” (linking reward to merit) is contrasted to Spanish government policy, which encourages just the opposite —“learned helplessness”.

I fear that Irish government policy more closely resembles the “learned helplessness” model:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304749904577385650652966894

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

over 40 years, that would be quite an easy pension pot to get together.
In simple terms, 200/40 is just 5k per year in pension contributions, and thats before tax relief and allowing for a realistic growth percentage which will reduce how much the labourer would actually have to save into the fund on a weekly basis.

Plus he will then get his state OAP to compliment this.

200k will give him an equivalent pension as a CO not a greater one. At present annunity's pay about 4% so 150K will get him a pension of about 6K and 50% widows the last 50K is about the equivalent gratuity that a CO on average would get.

There are a few differences the CO can retire at 60 and would have there 40 years done. The labourer would have to work to 67 to draw the OAP. Along with that 5K while it sounds small is about 17-20% of his pay before tax. Assuming he earns 25-30K a year However by my calculations he might only need 12-15% of pay to achieve this.

There is a few catches first very few people start a pension at this age and none in this wage bracket did 40 years ago. The next is that his tax benefits would be very small as he is below the high tax bracket. The next thing is that is for a pension of that value now. To achieve that from a starting wage of maybe 30 pounds a week back in 1970 is a total different scenario.


The CO who played the system is well ahead of the labourer who lacked ambition

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

200k will give him an equivalent pension as a CO not a greater one. At present annunity's pay about 4% so 150K will get him a pension of about 6K and 50% widows the last 50K is about the equivalent gratuity that a CO on average would get.

www.pensionsboard.ie provides some decent calculations alright on this. Both people could get a similar pension if they both paid their contributions.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There are a few differences the CO can retire at 60 and would have there 40 years done. The labourer would have to work to 67 to draw the OAP. Along with that 5K while it sounds small is about 17-20% of his pay before tax. Assuming he earns 25-30K a year However by my calculations he might only need 12-15% of pay to achieve this.

If that CO retires at 60 then they take a reduced pension, they cannot retire early on full pension, it is reduced % wise depending on how early they go. Plus, any private sector person can cash in their private pension at 60 to, but just like their PS counterpart, it will obviously be reduced too.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is a few catches first very few people start a pension at this age and none in this wage bracket did 40 years ago. The next is that his tax benefits would be very small as he is below the high tax bracket. The next thing is that is for a pension of that value now. To achieve that from a starting wage of maybe 30 pounds a week back in 1970 is a total different scenario

If everybody in the Private sector started a pension the moment they joined the workforce (Like PS Staff do, as its mandatory) then they would not be in a bad situation on retirement. My youngest brother runs a very successfull retail shop in Dublin, and i had to drag him kicking and screaming to a pension provider recently! The long term thought is just not there in some people!

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The CO who played the system is well ahead of the labourer who lacked ambition

How did anybody "play" the system.
One person took a job with pension contributions built into their T&C's of employment, they other took the high paying manual job and didnt bother their ass thinking of the future. I wouldnt call that "playing" the system, maybe your confused?

Farmer Pudsey

kceire wrote: »

www.pensionsboard.ie provides some decent calculations alright on this. Both people could get a similar pension if they both paid their contributions.



If that CO retires at 60 then they take a reduced pension, they cannot retire early on full pension, it is reduced % wise depending on how early they go. Plus, any private sector person can cash in their private pension at 60 to, but just like their PS counterpart, it will obviously be reduced too.



If everybody in the Private sector started a pension the moment they joined the workforce (Like PS Staff do, as its mandatory) then they would not be in a bad situation on retirement. My youngest brother runs a very successfull retail shop in Dublin, and i had to drag him kicking and screaming to a pension provider recently! The long term thought is just not there in some people!



How did anybody "play" the system.
One person took a job with pension contributions built into their T&C's of employment, they other took the high paying manual job and didnt bother their ass thinking of the future. I wouldnt call that "playing" the system, maybe your confused?

We are talking about a labourer and CO that are nearing retirement. A CO who joined the PS in the mid 70's even up to the early 90's under the old system can retire at 60 on full or the accumulated part of that pension. Most would have full service as they would have joined at 16-18 years of age.

It would have been impossible for a labourer (unless he was employed by Local Government) to accumulate that sort of pension even he had managed to work all that time. I know people retiring who have saved substancial amounts in approved pension funds to have seen them decimated over the last 5 years. Even if the pensions had preformed middling to well these people can only expect to take 50-80K in cash and a pension of 5-8K/year.

The CO that was recruited in the 70's/80's has only started to contributed to there pension in the last 5-6 years. I

PS's did not have this risk

I would not have considered labouring a high paying manual job with the exception of the boom and even then it maxed at about 30-35K

skafish

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

We are talking about a labourer and CO that are nearing retirement. A CO who joined the PS in the mid 70's even up to the early 90's under the old system can retire at 60 on full or the accumulated part of that pension. Most would have full service as they would have joined at 16-18 years of age.

It would have been impossible for a labourer (unless he was employed by Local Government) to accumulate that sort of pension even he had managed to work all that time. I know people retiring who have saved substancial amounts in approved pension funds to have seen them decimated over the last 5 years. Even if the pensions had preformed middling to well these people can only expect to take 50-80K in cash and a pension of 5-8K/year.

The CO that was recruited in the 70's/80's has only started to contributed to there pension in the last 5-6 years. I

PS's did not have this risk

I would not have considered labouring a high paying manual job with the exception of the boom and even then it maxed at about 30-35K

You get what you pay for in this life.......

Gumbo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

We are talking about a labourer and CO that are nearing retirement. A CO who joined the PS in the mid 70's even up to the early 90's under the old system can retire at 60 on full or the accumulated part of that pension. Most would have full service as they would have joined at 16-18 years of age.

It would have been impossible for a labourer (unless he was employed by Local Government) to accumulate that sort of pension even he had managed to work all that time. I know people retiring who have saved substancial amounts in approved pension funds to have seen them decimated over the last 5 years. Even if the pensions had preformed middling to well these people can only expect to take 50-80K in cash and a pension of 5-8K/year.

The CO that was recruited in the 70's/80's has only started to contributed to there pension in the last 5-6 years. I

PS's did not have this risk

I would not have considered labouring a high paying manual job with the exception of the boom and even then it maxed at about 30-35K

Your using a worse case scenario for the labourer and best case for the CO. Compare like with like.

If the CO and labourer both started on the same day, and both started pension contributions (PS is mandatory) then they are both in a good position on retirement.

I'm in the busing game as they call it and show me a labourer that maxed out at 35k and I'll show you a labourer that wasn't there on Monday. They would move on to the next site earning more than that!

Let's not fool ourselves at this end of the table though, if both parties opened a pension fund then they would be comfortable on retirement.

Don't forget that CO you mention gets no state OAP.

Godge

kceire wrote: »

Let's not fool ourselves at this end of the table though, if both parties opened a pension fund then they would be comfortable on retirement.

.

Yes, but in comparison to the person who claimed UA for 40 years, the rate of return is low for all that work.

golfwallah

To get back on thread, here’s an informed Irish source on the Irish welfare system acting as a disincentive to work:
http://www.southernstar.ie/News/Welfare-system-a-disincentive-to-work-says-Sen-ODriscoll-11042013.htm

I think he has a point!

creedp

golfwallah wrote: »

To get back on thread, here’s an informed Irish source on the Irish welfare system acting as a disincentive to work:
http://www.southernstar.ie/News/Welfare-system-a-disincentive-to-work-says-Sen-ODriscoll-11042013.htm

I think he has a point!

Im sure he has a point but I wonder if he thinks that current pay rates are not attractive because of high social welfare rates them how will a pay freeze help? Unless he is only seeking pay freezes for civil servants. Alternatively as he is now an insider in the political camp he may be aware of impending additional social welfare reductions.